DisneylandForward

[britain]

Doesn't HKDL have 3, not 4? Just land reserved for a fourth which, as far as I know, hasn't been announced. Not sure of the average occupancy there but if it's 80%+ and with the upcoming Marvel expansion, sure maybe it's worth the fourth.

And Shanghai, as we know, is actively preparing for their second gate, to which the fourth hotel is a key connectivity point between the first and second gates, in addition to more lodging capacity.

Both resorts are significantly different beasts from DLR in terms of maturity and tourist mix that would call into question anything more than a single hotel add without adding an additional park, IMO.

On the topic of the Shanghai second gate: This will be fascinating to see what its identity will be, and very telling for what Disney thinks its top priorities should be.

This will be Disney’s first second gate built since the rise and spectacular fall of the “studio park” concept. Every change to the two studio parks (or 3 if you count DCA) since then has been steering in the direction of large single IP lands.

Based on that behavior, one may expect SDR’s second gate to be another Disney Adventure World just with better bones built from scratch.

That indeed could happen.

Odds are that it will happen.

But if it DOESN’T happen, if maybe, just maybe they aim higher again… what might that more inspiring concept be?

Do they reinvent the other high-concept parks? (EPCOT, TDS, or AK). Or do they try something completely different?

I don’t think it’s over stating to say that regardless of how many billions they plan to spend and whatever yada yada story they spin about it, THIS decision will show D’Amaro’s true colors, and will be a ceiling on just how “back” WDI can get.

 

[Disney Analyst]

 

[Disney Analyst]

Sorry yes, miscounted. It’s probably better to just count revenue rooms if I’m being honest.

Disneyland - 2400
Tokyo Disney - 2300
HKDL - 1700
SDL - 1200 (~1700 soon) +?500 with the fourth
DLP - 5700

When I replied to the context I also meant contextually if there is a built out Disneyland forward. Not today. As is, DLR would seem to have occupancy loads to support another hotel, though my suspicion is they’d want more significant DVC sell through first and that’s probably the key factor stalling hotel 4. A fully built out DLF I don’t see much reason they couldn’t float a 5th.

And I know why people do not want TS lot turned into a hotel oasis, but there’s quite a lot of sensibility to put a Disney hotel down there. It would tap into the convention crowd as well. As would some dining.

I’d really like a more budget friendly Disney hotel at Disneyland… the current three are ridiculous.

 

[DrStarlander]

I don't understand why some are so adamantly against more hotel expansion.

I'm not against hotels, I just want something akin to the gorgeous hotels we've seen built at the overseas resorts. Those are hotels I want to see from the park, not avert my gaze in disgust.

I'd love a few fantastic themed hotels as part of Westcot at TS. I want to sit at an outdoor French bistro cafe by the fountains and feel like I'm in Paris, then go up to my Haussmannian hotel suite overlooking the park's lagoon. Or sit by the outdoor après-ski vibe fireplace after dinner, then head up to my Swiss ski lodge themed hotel room in an elevator cabin themed like an Alps gondola. I want ambition and creativity and a stay that's out of the ordinary.

 

[Distorian]

I'm not against hotels, I just want something akin to the gorgeous hotels we've seen built at the overseas resorts. Those are hotels I want to see from the park, not avert my gaze in disgust.

I'd love a few fantastic themed hotels as part of Westcot at TS. I want to sit at an outdoor French bistro cafe by the fountains and feel like I'm in Paris, then go up to my Haussmannian hotel suite overlooking the park's lagoon. Or sit by the outdoor après-ski vibe fireplace after dinner, then head up to my Swiss ski lodge themed hotel room in an elevator cabin themed like an Alps gondola. I want ambition and creativity and a stay that's out of the ordinary.

Integrating the hotels into World Showcase ala Mira Costa at TDS is the kind of intelligent, pragmatic, artistic, high level thinking that won’t get you a job at WDI. You need to think “how can we waste as much space as possible?”

 

[DrStarlander]

Integrating the hotels into World Showcase ala Mira Costa at TDS is the kind of intelligent, pragmatic, artistic, high level thinking that won’t get you a job at WDI. You need to think “how can we waste as much space as possible?”

They tend to like their domestic theme parks and hotels like my kid wanted his dinner: everything separated and nothing can be touching each other.

 

[TP2000]

Just watch, all those permits are because they got a sale on new green vinyl tents for the 25 year old security checkpoints.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

If they did build a hotel at Toy Story Parking Lot and there wasn't a third gate there, they could market it as a moderate resort (a bit like Saratoga Springs at Disney Springs). That's one of the major issues with Disneyland's hotels is that they are very expensive compared to nearby hotels and there aren't as many perks for staying at a Disney Hotel at the moment

I think the Toy Story lot needs substantial attractions of some sort or it’s doomed to fail.

Why would anyone choose to stay at a Disney hotel that’s further away from the parks than the dozens of non Disney hotels? Even moderate Disney rates would still be far more expensive than all the closer non Disney hotels.

We get Hilton employee rates so we normally stay at the big Hilton by the convention center or the Suncoast on Clementine (because we get them for $50 a night) and the walk is a major drawback to both, the only way the TS lot makes sense is as a 3rd gate or if they connect it via a monorail, skyliner, or people mover to make it extremely easy to get to, even then I think it would need substantial attractions to make it an attractive place to stay. No one is going to pay luxury, or even moderate, prices to be a mile away from the primary destination and walk past dozens of cheaper hotels for the privilege.

 

[DrStarlander]

I think the Toy Story lot needs substantial attractions of some sort or it’s doomed to fail.

I think programmatically a TS park would be something like this at full build-out and opening with around 8 or 9 of these:

1. New innovative E-ticket exclusive to this park (120k sq. ft.)
2. Trackless all-ages dark ride (50k sq. ft.)
3. Boat all-ages dark ride (80k sq. ft.)
4. Outdoor all-ages scenic boat ride (60k sq. ft)
5. Flying theater (60k sq. ft.)
6. Themed family coaster (100k sq. ft.)
7. Omnimover all-ages targeting (40k sq. ft.)
8. Simulator (50k sq. ft.)
9. Carousel (10k sq. ft.)
10. Flat ride #1 (10k sq. ft.)
11. Flat ride #2 (10k sq. ft.)
12. 4D/screen theater show with some animatronics (40k sq. ft.)
13. Kids play area (20k sq. ft.)

The exclusive innovative E-ticket ride would be going to be doing a lot of heavy-lifting as the "must see/do" attraction. It would be the park's RSR.

 

[GravityFalls]

On the topic of the Shanghai second gate: This will be fascinating to see what its identity will be, and very telling for what Disney thinks its top priorities should be.

This will be Disney’s first second gate built since the rise and spectacular fall of the “studio park” concept. Every change to the two studio parks (or 3 if you count DCA) since then has been steering in the direction of large single IP lands.

Based on that behavior, one may expect SDR’s second gate to be another Disney Adventure World just with better bones built from scratch.

That indeed could happen.

Odds are that it will happen.

But if it DOESN’T happen, if maybe, just maybe they aim higher again… what might that more inspiring concept be?

Do they reinvent the other high-concept parks? (EPCOT, TDS, or AK). Or do they try something completely different?

I don’t think it’s over stating to say that regardless of how many billions they plan to spend and whatever yada yada story they spin about it, THIS decision will show D’Amaro’s true colors, and will be a ceiling on just how “back” WDI can get.

A lot has changed since the 90's, but the themes for the three domestic were partially chosen to position Disney against local competitors.

Theme	Local Competitor	Disney
Studio Backlot	Universal Orlando	Hollywood Studios
Animals / Africa	Busch Gardens Tampa	Animal Kingdom
California	Knott's Berry Farm	California Adventure

So if that's the strategy, then Chimelong Ocean World (think Sea World) and Chimelong Spaceship (indoor park themed as a "spaceship") are the big competitors to position against. "Project Atlas" is the supposed codename for the new park (Atlas is the namesake for the Atlantic Ocean). So something with a nautical ship/ocean theme.

 

[denyuntilcaught]

A lot has changed since the 90's, but the themes for the three domestic were partially chosen to position Disney against local competitors.

Theme	Local Competitor	Disney
Studio Backlot	Universal Orlando	Hollywood Studios
Animals / Africa	Busch Gardens Tampa	Animal Kingdom
California	Knott's Berry Farm	California Adventure

So if that's the strategy, then Chimelong Ocean World (think Sea World) and Chimelong Spaceship (indoor park themed as a "spaceship") are the big competitors to position against. "Project Atlas" is the supposed codename for the new park (Atlas is the namesake for the Atlantic Ocean). So something with a nautical ship/ocean theme.

I figured, based on Bob Weis' tweet and various leaks, in addition to what Atlas may also represent - a map - it was going to be a version of EPCOT, but of course, DAW-ified.

Not to derail this thread, but there's discussion of this in the International forum.

 

[Disney Irish]

A lot has changed since the 90's, but the themes for the three domestic were partially chosen to position Disney against local competitors.

Theme	Local Competitor	Disney
Studio Backlot	Universal Orlando	Hollywood Studios
Animals / Africa	Busch Gardens Tampa	Animal Kingdom
California	Knott's Berry Farm	California Adventure

So if that's the strategy, then Chimelong Ocean World (think Sea World) and Chimelong Spaceship (indoor park themed as a "spaceship") are the big competitors to position against. "Project Atlas" is the supposed codename for the new park (Atlas is the namesake for the Atlantic Ocean). So something with a nautical ship/ocean theme.

Which again brings up the point, what other local competition in the SoCal region even warrants the creation of a whole 3rd gate? There is no other competition in the region, let alone all of California, that is expanding into additional gates.

So while I get it from a fan perspective why some fans may want a 3rd gate, from a business standpoint I don't see a real great business justification for that over just expanding the existing two Parks footprints.

 

[mickEblu]

Which again brings up the point, what other local competition in the SoCal region even warrants the creation of a whole 3rd gate? There is no other competition in the region, let alone all of California, that is expanding into additional gates.

So while I get it from a fan perspective why some fans may want a 3rd gate, from a business standpoint I don't see a real great business justification for that over just expanding the existing two Parks footprints.

What justification is there for another mall in Anaheim/ Orange County is the real question.

 

[Disney Irish]

What justification is there for another mall in Anaheim/ Orange County is the real question.

Given that nobody discussed a mall except you guys trying to twist my words, none (or very little). But there is a real strong business justification for adding additional hotels in the region, especially Disney owned hotels, which is what I've been saying and echoed by several others (and I don't think anyone really disputes other than it getting in the way of ideas for a 3rd gate).

 

[DLR92]

I just don’t understand why the lag of not building a new hotel since 2001?

 

[mickEblu]

Given that nobody discussed a mall except you guys trying to twist my words, none (or very little). But there is a real strong business justification for adding additional hotels in the region, especially Disney owned hotels, which is what I've been saying and echoed by several others (and I don't think anyone really disputes other than it getting in the way of ideas for a 3rd gate).

The sweet spot is a third gate and two more hotels.

 

[Disney Irish]

The sweet spot is a third gate and two more hotels.

Is that? A sweet spot for you (and a few others here) maybe. But we cannot say that is really the sweet spot for Disney and how they come to decisions.

We know that there is no expansion beyond a few new rides happening by other Parks in the region (and all of the West Coast really). That cannot be discounted, and I doubt Disney is not using that in part of their decision making on the future of the Resort. So from business perspective given the region it may make more sense to expand the existing footprints to "keep up with the Jones'", as it were.

On paper a 3rd gate may look like a slam dunk to fans. But in reality we know that when a new gate is developed and built it draws all development and construction focus away from the other Parks. So that means there is no new additions in DL or DCA during that development cycle, which would be a decade or more. That means nothing new, no new entertainment, no new attractions, no new offerings, nothing, or very little, in fact it would probably be cuts across both in order to keep costs down. So that is a long drought of no development that may make the early days of DCA look like a picnic.

 

[GravityFalls]

Which again brings up the point, what other local competition in the SoCal region even warrants the creation of a whole 3rd gate? There is no other competition in the region, let alone all of California, that is expanding into additional gates.

So while I get it from a fan perspective why some fans may want a 3rd gate, from a business standpoint I don't see a real great business justification for that over just expanding the existing two Parks footprints.

This is a fair point. Universal is as space constrained as Disney.

There's a million reasons it won't happen, but the only scenario I could imagine where local competition forces Disney's hand is if Comcast purchases the Warner's lot from Paramount. That would give them the space they need to build a true resort. Disney would then purchase Garden Walk and surrounding properties to build up a third park in the Toy Story Lot.

(Of course there are other hypothetical scenarios where a third park happens that don't involve local competition)

 

[Disney Irish]

This is a fair point. Universal is as space constrained as Disney.

There's a million reasons it won't happen, but the only scenario I could imagine where local competition forces Disney's hand is if Comcast purchases the Warner's lot from Paramount. That would give them the space they need to build a true resort. Disney would then purchase Garden Walk and surrounding properties to build up a third park in the Toy Story Lot.

(Of course there are other hypothetical scenarios where a third park happens that don't involve local competition)

Oh sure, in a ratcheted up arms race in a hypothetical new SoCal Theme Park War of 2040, that could happen. But that is a big if. The flip side is that Comcast may not see the need to expand to a new gate in the region, just like Disney.

 

[mickEblu]

Is that? A sweet spot for you (and a few others here) maybe. But we cannot say that is really the sweet spot for Disney and how they come to decisions.

We know that there is no expansion beyond a few new rides happening by other Parks in the region (and all of the West Coast really). That cannot be discounted, and I doubt Disney is not using that in part of their decision making on the future of the Resort. So from business perspective given the region it may make more sense to expand the existing footprints to "keep up with the Jones'", as it were.

On paper a 3rd gate may look like a slam dunk to fans. But in reality we know that when a new gate is developed and built it draws all development and construction focus away from the other Parks. So that means there is no new additions in DL or DCA during that development cycle, which would be a decade or more. That means nothing new, no new entertainment, no new attractions, no new offerings, nothing, or very little, in fact it would probably be cuts across both in order to keep costs down. So that is a long drought of no development that may make the early days of DCA look like a picnic.

It’s clearly not a sweet spot for you since you want another mall. Lol. Sweet spot for me? Just me? lol. Not the majority of parks fans?

Who cares. There will be a new park with new attractions.