Phroobar
Well-Known Member
or money laundering.
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DisneylandForward
- Thread starter flutas
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That's not at all the definition of money laundering.
shambolicdefending
Well-Known Member
Pretty sure he was just making a joke. Not trying to give an actual dictionary definition.
Phroobar
Well-Known Member
I'm joking. I know the definition of it. They make us take classes in it at work.
Still it makes me wonder how much money is lost in corruption in these kind of deals with the city.
I was afraid that some of our less world-wise forumites with hair trigger rage issues would think it serious.
Phroobar
Well-Known Member
Yeah, the ones that don't have the manors of a ChatGPT chat bot.I was afraid that some of our less world-wise forumites with hair trigger rage issues would think it serious.
TP2000
Well-Known Member
No, that's inaccurate. But it's easy to misunderstand if you haven't read the actual planning agreement, because much of the reporting from fansites on this early on was very inaccurate.
The actual dollar amount that Disney pays to Anaheim is $133 Million. That $133 Million is broken down this way;
- $45 Million paid to Anaheim for Resort area street improvements/refurbishment/widening.
- $40 Million paid to Anaheim for Disney to take over 3 small city-owned streets; all of Magic Way, 100 yards of Clementine south of Katella that is entry driveway into the Toy Story lot, and 50 yards of entry driveway into the Pumbaa parking lot. (Those two entrance driveways are currently city owned streets, technically. This is Disney buying them for $40 Million.)
- $30 Million paid to Anaheim to help develop subsidized low-income housing across the city, paid over 5 years.
- $10 Million paid to Anaheim to pay for sewer improvements needed along Katella Avenue (please don't defer that!)
- $8 Million paid to Anaheim to refurbish existing city parks throughout Anaheim.
And the dollar amount Disney will pay to Anaheim to fund city services and improvements is $133 Million, noted above.
Again, for anyone who hasn't read the full planning documents, the City of Anaheim has a very nicely put together website that has all of those documents. Including the original planning documents from 1996 which the DisneylandForward plan would amend. The Anaheim website is far more useful, and forthright, than the splashier Disney website for DisneylandForward.
DisneylandForward | Anaheim, CA - Official Website
The city of Anaheim and the Disneyland Resort are looking at updating the mix of uses in the Anaheim Resort.
www.anaheim.net
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TP2000
Well-Known Member
Okay. But when Star Wars Land had its C Ticket bantha ride removed from the plan, and then the dinner theater was removed from the plan, and then Bob Chapek had the street entertainment and roaming droids and rooftop stunt shows removed from the plan (in place of Ky'le from Tustin pulling us into his immersive snack bar story) those seem like cuts not "shifts".
If it walks like a cut and quacks like a cut, it's probably just a cut.
Underwater Animatronics - Submechanophobia in Your Favorite Theme Parks! - Theme Park Tourist
Today we’re talking submechanophobia in theme parks, let’s take a look at some of the most prominent examples...
www.themeparktourist.com
TP2000
Well-Known Member
Seeing as how Anaheim and TDA's Director of Government Relations has been under investigation at the federal level by the FBI, and now at the state level by Sacramento auditors wondering where all that Covid money went, it's not surprising there's a little $5 Million "fine" baked into the plan, is there? Let's not call it a "fine", let's just call it a love gift.
If Anaheim approves the zoning changes Disney wants, but Disney spends less than $2,499,999,999 and 99 cents, Disney pays Anaheim city hall a quick and easy $5 Million to do what they please with.
Thank you very much, Madam Mayor and esteemed Council members! See ya up at Lake Arrowhead this summer!
Disney Irish
Premium Member
Yes, I'm actually aware of the actual breakdown and the penalty.No, that's inaccurate. But it's easy to misunderstand if you haven't read the actual planning agreement, because much of the reporting from fansites on this early on was very inaccurate.
The actual dollar amount that Disney pays to Anaheim is $133 Million. That $133 Million is broken down this way;
The difference in dollar amounts between $1.9 Billion and $2.5 Billion is a clause that says that if Disney invests less than $2.5 Billion over the next ten years, they must pay a fine of $5 Million to Anaheim for not going bigger than $1.9 Billion. As @Parteecia noted earlier, that clause and $600 Million difference in investment amounts was accurately reported by the LA Times recently. But many fan websites, and a few actual news sites, glommed on to the $2.5 Billion as the agreement number, when it is not.
- $45 Million paid to Anaheim for Resort area street improvements/refurbishment/widening.
- $40 Million paid to Anaheim for Disney to take over 3 small city-owned streets; all of Magic Way, 100 yards of Clementine south of Katella that is entry driveway into the Toy Story lot, and 50 yards of entry driveway into the Pumbaa parking lot. (Those two entrance driveways are currently city owned streets, technically. This is Disney buying them for $40 Million.)
- $30 Million paid to Anaheim to help develop subsidized low-income housing across the city, paid over 5 years.
- $10 Million paid to Anaheim to pay for sewer improvements needed along Katella Avenue (please don't defer that!)
- $8 Million paid to Anaheim to refurbish existing city parks throughout Anaheim.
And the dollar amount Disney will pay to Anaheim to fund city services and improvements is $133 Million, noted above.
Again, for anyone who hasn't read the full planning documents, the City of Anaheim has a very nicely put together website that has all of those documents. Including the original planning documents from 1996 which the DisneylandForward plan would amend. The Anaheim website is far more useful, and forthright, than the splashier Disney website for DisneylandForward.
DisneylandForward | Anaheim, CA - Official Website
The city of Anaheim and the Disneyland Resort are looking at updating the mix of uses in the Anaheim Resort.
As I not only read the site, but watched the actual City Council "Workshop" where all this was discussed including almost all 4 hours of citizen comments, something I believe you didn't do. The one guy who rambled on about conspiracy theories and having binders of information while wearing a bunch of Disney merch was real interesting. I actually felt sorry for the Council members while they had to sit there and listen to all that.
Anyways, I just lumped it all together and called it "incentives" as that is what they are, and its the easiest way to describe in quick conversation. The point being though that you also seem to gloss over is that the $1.9B is just the minimum Disney investment they will spend over that 10 year period for the Resort, not the maximum. But thank you for breaking it down for everyone to see.
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TP2000
Well-Known Member
Because it's not a penalty, it's a kickback.
A decade from now, if Disney has only spent up to $2,499,999.99 on its Anaheim property, Disney gives Anaheim's politicians a check for $5 Million to do what they please with, arriving seemingly out of nowhere years after the deal was struck so those nosy citizens don't know it's there, to be spent on... city council office remodels, staff "retreats", upgraded travel, an open bar tab at The Ranch, etc., etc..
It's rather stunning how they put that in there. Old school backroom politics alive and well in the 2020's, but without the cigars.
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TP2000
Well-Known Member
Oh. It seemed like you were saying that Disney would be giving Anaheim $600 Million for city projects, while Disney spends $1.9 Billion developing its own property, which you added up to $2.5 Billion...
It's not $1.9 Billion over 10 years for the Resort and $600M+ for Anaheim.
It's $1.9 Billion over 10 years for the Resort, and $133 Million for Anaheim.
The $133 Million is for those five very specific categories that I noted above. The most vague category is the cheapest; $8 Million for "city parks", and Anaheim decides if they use that $8 Million to build a new park, or renovate their existing parks.
Sometimes I get bored, but I don't get that bored.
Well, let's unlump it, because it's not $600 Million in cash going to Anaheim. It's $133 Million in cash (for Anaheim to spend on Resort and citywide upgrades) going to Anaheim. Not sure where your other $477 Million in incentives comes from.
The $1.9 Billion is what Disney wants to spend. Then Disney pretends that they might spend over $2.5 Billion in the same timeframe, but if they don't reach that dollar amount they give Anaheim city hall a check for $5 Million cash....
TDA In 2035: Darnit! You got us good Anaheim politicians, here's your $5 Million
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TP2000
Well-Known Member
Speaking of money Disney is paying to Anaheim as part of DisneylandForward, there's $40 Million of the $133 Million total that Disney is giving to Anaheim to take over 3 city owned streets.
With the exception of Magic Way, two "streets" Disney is buying from Anaheim are just driveways into Disney property that Disney already maintains and controls. Hmm...
The first street that Disney would pay Anaheim for is called Hotel Way, but it's really just the 50 yards of driveway that goes under the Edison power lines into the Pumbaa Parking Lot off of Disney Way. Here is Hotel Way on Google Earth, which Disney intends to buy from Anaheim. The red box denotes the entirety of "Hotel Way".
The second city street Disney will purchase as part of the $40 Million payment is the section of Clementine Street south of Katella that leads into the old Cast Member parking lot, and is now used for Toy Story Lot guest parking. Technically, this driveway is "Clementine Street" inside the red outline.
The third and final street Disney will purchase as part of that $40 Million is actually a real street. It's Magic Way, which is the entrance road to Downtown Disney surface parking and the entry drive to the Disneyland Hotel. It was built in 1998 as part of Resort expansion to connect Disneyland Drive to those Disney property parking lots. It is 1,150 feet long.
Disney taking ownership of Magic Way makes sense, because it may not need to exist in the future depending on how they organize and build whatever projects DisneylandForward may bring to the surface parking lots south of Magic Way.
But a $40 Million cash payment for Disney to take those three "streets" off of Anaheim's hands? Hmm...
With the exception of Magic Way, two "streets" Disney is buying from Anaheim are just driveways into Disney property that Disney already maintains and controls. Hmm...
The first street that Disney would pay Anaheim for is called Hotel Way, but it's really just the 50 yards of driveway that goes under the Edison power lines into the Pumbaa Parking Lot off of Disney Way. Here is Hotel Way on Google Earth, which Disney intends to buy from Anaheim. The red box denotes the entirety of "Hotel Way".
The second city street Disney will purchase as part of the $40 Million payment is the section of Clementine Street south of Katella that leads into the old Cast Member parking lot, and is now used for Toy Story Lot guest parking. Technically, this driveway is "Clementine Street" inside the red outline.
The third and final street Disney will purchase as part of that $40 Million is actually a real street. It's Magic Way, which is the entrance road to Downtown Disney surface parking and the entry drive to the Disneyland Hotel. It was built in 1998 as part of Resort expansion to connect Disneyland Drive to those Disney property parking lots. It is 1,150 feet long.
Disney taking ownership of Magic Way makes sense, because it may not need to exist in the future depending on how they organize and build whatever projects DisneylandForward may bring to the surface parking lots south of Magic Way.
But a $40 Million cash payment for Disney to take those three "streets" off of Anaheim's hands? Hmm...
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TP2000
Well-Known Member
While there's some rather fishy payments for driveways in the DisneylandForward plans, one of the wisest moves is to remove any future planning by Anaheim to extend Gene Autry Way and Clementine Street through the existing Toy Story Lot land.
That Gene Autry Way extension, in particular, was a bizzare idea from the 1990's to create a six lane street going from the Convention Center to Angel Stadium. It was originally thought it was needed for Anaheim to host mega-events where the Convention Center and the Stadium/Honda Center sports district needed to be connected to each other. But Anaheim has never hosted an event like that, and aside from Anaheim hosting the Summer Olympics, I can't imagine what it might be.
Nevertheless, DisneylandForward will finally put that DOA proposal out of its misery. Gene Autry Way and Clementine Street will no longer be a part of Anaheim's master road planning for some unknown future date.
Those of us who have driven along the existing Gene Autry Way know it's a bizarrely overbuilt and always empty stretch of mega-street. And now it will dead end at Haster permanently, like it always has. And yes, it's always this empty...
That Gene Autry Way extension, in particular, was a bizzare idea from the 1990's to create a six lane street going from the Convention Center to Angel Stadium. It was originally thought it was needed for Anaheim to host mega-events where the Convention Center and the Stadium/Honda Center sports district needed to be connected to each other. But Anaheim has never hosted an event like that, and aside from Anaheim hosting the Summer Olympics, I can't imagine what it might be.
Nevertheless, DisneylandForward will finally put that DOA proposal out of its misery. Gene Autry Way and Clementine Street will no longer be a part of Anaheim's master road planning for some unknown future date.
Those of us who have driven along the existing Gene Autry Way know it's a bizarrely overbuilt and always empty stretch of mega-street. And now it will dead end at Haster permanently, like it always has. And yes, it's always this empty...
Vegas Disney Fan
Well-Known Member
The resort district makes up 60% of Anaheims tax revenue, after driving around outside the resort area I’d argue they 100% need that extra revenue.
Disney Irish
Premium Member
The rest of the $600M that I was referring to was, in the City Council Workshop there is discussion from the various City Council members that they would like to see Disney invest more into the housing then the $30M committed, such as yearly investments. Also if i recall correctly they were wanting to increase the penalty, but I could be misremembering that. But this is the exact reason why I watched the actual proceedings, because its the nuisance of what is said that makes all the difference versus just the bullet points in the slides when discussing the numbers.Oh. It seemed like you were saying that Disney would be giving Anaheim $600 Million for city projects, while Disney spends $1.9 Billion developing its own property, which you added up to $2.5 Billion...
It's not $1.9 Billion over 10 years for the Resort and $600M+ for Anaheim.
It's $1.9 Billion over 10 years for the Resort, and $133 Million for Anaheim.
The $133 Million is for those five very specific categories that I noted above. The most vague category is the cheapest; $8 Million for "city parks", and Anaheim decides if they use that $8 Million to build a new park, or renovate their existing parks.
Sometimes I get bored, but I don't get that bored.
Well, let's unlump it, because it's not $600 Million in cash going to Anaheim. It's $133 Million in cash (for Anaheim to spend on Resort and citywide upgrades) going to Anaheim. Not sure where your other $477 Million in incentives comes from.
The $1.9 Billion is what Disney wants to spend. Then Disney pretends that they might spend over $2.5 Billion in the same timeframe, but if they don't reach that dollar amount they give Anaheim city hall a check for $5 Million cash....
TDA In 2035: Darnit! You got us good Anaheim politicians, here's your $5 Millionkickbackpenalty check from Disney!
As for the actual investment, we all know that Disney projects go beyond their budgets a majority of the time. So look at the $1.9B as the floor, not the ceiling. It might be what they want to spend initially, but it'll likely balloon beyond that number fairly quickly.
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TP2000
Well-Known Member
Now imagine that same Anaheim if Walt had built Disneyland up in Pomona or La Mirada instead.
Anaheim in 2024 without a Disneyland would make Stanton look like Newport Coast.
TP2000
Well-Known Member
If Anaheim wants to get more cash than the $133 Million that Disney has agreed to, that will be a fight. As of now, all of the documents and agreements for DisneylandForward have Disney's payments to the city over the next decade at $133 Million.
Ha! I'm sure Anaheim would love to get a bigger payment than their current $5 Million kickback they've arranged for. But they'd be smart to not get too greedy. A $5 Million kickback a decade from now when no one is watching is a nice little bonus for them. Just let it sit there quietly and wait... Shhh!
Anaheim's City Council, with a shout out to TDA's Director of Government Relations Ms. Carrie Nocella, didn't go under FBI investigation for nothing. And Mayor Sidhu didn't resign in disgrace for nothing. Anaheim politicians are a crafty bunch, and so long as they can keep Socialists like Jose Moreno off the council, they know they've got the Golden Goose that pays for everything with their Resort District. But especially after all the scandals, FBI vans parked out front, and sudden resignations of the past couple years, they do have to put on a little show for the hometown crowd at those meetings, pretending they are really digging into the issues and going through things with a fine tooth comb with Disney.
DisneylandForward is a done deal at this point. Barring some major citizen revolt, or new political scandal, it's all wrapped up.
Disney will spend $1.9 Billion to build thousands of new hotel rooms, DVC units, and 800,000+ square feet of conference space, retail, and dining. Plus a few "attractions", perhaps one E Ticket for each park, accessed via bridges over Disneyland Drive. That will use up the $1.9 Billion pretty quickly.
They do. But the $2.5 Billion threshold was put out there just to disguise a $5 Million bonus check for Anaheim pols.
Disney Irish
Premium Member
I agree it is a done deal, it just a matter of getting the Planning Commission seal of approval and then the final Council vote.
As for the $1.9B+ that will be spent, I don't know what they will build but remember that is just within the first 10 years. Further investment will hopefully take place after that, including more attractions and such.
But the assertion that it'll be primarily just hotel rooms and DVC and 800K sqft conference space that is first built is a bit hyperbolic in my opinion. As the first thing is they aren't even permitted to build out much more conference space in the first place, ~39K sqft left available, and they aren't asking for more. So cross that off the list of things that you hyperbolically talk about.
Also all the parking and bridges are separate from the $1.9B, as that is only meant to be spent on what they call "visitor attractions". So cross that off the list of things that you hyperbolically talk about.
So we'll see what they actually build, but its likely going to be more than just a single attraction for each park.
October82
Well-Known Member
I don't think there's any meaningful argument against allowing Disney to develop their property as they see fit, but I'd be remiss not to say that the barriers to development in southern california aren't that there aren't people willing to pay development costs, it's that development costs are extremely high because of local zoning ordinances. The city council would achieve more for housing affordability by up zoning than pushing Disney to contribute to a housing fund.
Cost overruns generally don't generate more investment - they'll just mean Disney gets less for what they choose to spend. Whether it's $1.9B or $2.5B in ~2035 dollars isn't really enough to deliver the kind of results we'd probably all like to see. $2 billion is the cost of 3-4 large attractions (CR in Florida was (somehow?1?) over $400 million, Fantasy Springs in TDS is apparently north of $1 billion, and BATB at TDL was >$200 million) and 1-2 hotels. Substantial growth but not transformative.
It also remains to be seen how much of that is 'new' spending. Disney very likely arrived at that number based on in part on the cost of the Eastern Gateway parking structure and the Avengers E-ticket. So you're really looking at more limited expansion in that number than the concept art and Disney's PR suggests.