DisneylandForward

[Vegas Disney Fan]

My preference is for Westcot as closely to Tony Baxter's vision as possible. However, because I like to see different possibilities visually, here is a version with the retail, two hotels (about 1,000 rooms) and the Warner Bros. indoor theme park from Abu Dhabi (1.6 million square feet).

While it's not necessary for a park to be indoor in Anaheim (and personally I prefer outdoors), the benefits of indoor parks is they can achieve more density with limited space. The "in between spaces" are eliminated and things can be executed in a more compressed way (multiple stories are even possible). Ideally an indoor park features IPs and lands that can benefit from lighting control, like Mermaid Lagoon at Tokyo DisneySea. So, maybe an Aladdin land in perpetual golden hour, or a Villains land in perpetual night, Asgard, Dagobah, Nemo & Dory's coral reef, London in perpetual wintertime, etc.

This plan also includes some outdoor waterside areas (it need not be entirely indoors). In fact, alternately, what's shown as retail could just be 12 more acres of outdoor theme park space (e.g., 2 lands).
View attachment 911089

This is similar to what I expect also, and even at this scale I think it’ll struggle to draw more than a couple million guests a year away from DLR. Not a true third park, more of a mini park. Make it $50 a day and I think it’ll be packed, price it like DL or DCA and I think it’ll be a ghost town, I think the biggest problem with this piece of land is Disneys competing against itself to get people to go there.

Whatever they do I hope Disney makes transportation their #1 priority, I don’t think many people are going to leave DLR proper and take a bus or walk a mile to get to this lot so that’s going to be the biggest obstacle to overcome, add a monorail or a Skyliner and anything instantly makes sense, without some sort of off road transportation I think whatever they build here struggles though.

 

[DrStarlander]

I’m not sure why no one is actually looking where a third gate should go: Angel stadium.

I wouldn't be shocked if there was a Disney/City of Anaheim land-swap/sale in order to build a new MLB stadium with parking garage at Toy Story. This would be part of a deal with the team owner to extend the Angel's in Anaheim, but would also bolster the convention center's capabilities, and I'm sure housing would be a part of the mixed-use project.

By downsizing in acreage, the city can convert the Angel Stadium property's excessive size into equity in a new ballpark and housing. Meanwhile Disney is able to shed a parcel that may have as much or more value to Anaheim as it does to Disney (because of its not-quite-right size) and gain a theme park sized parcel that it can work with in the ways it knows best.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

Is there any reason the parking lots between Pixar Pals and the Disneyland hotel could not be converted into another large parking garage?

I don’t think they could fit any more traffic in the area, Disneyland Drive and Ball road already get backed up, I think a few thousand more parking spots using those streets and there’d be traffic backed up onto the 5 and to Harbor.

 

[DrStarlander]

I wouldn't be shocked if there was a Disney/City of Anaheim land-swap/sale in order to build a new MLB stadium with parking garage at Toy Story. This would be part of a deal with the team owner to extend the Angel's in Anaheim, but would also bolster the convention center's capabilities, and I'm sure housing would be a part of the mixed-use project.

By downsizing in acreage, the city can convert the Angel Stadium property's excessive size into equity in a new ballpark and housing. Meanwhile Disney is able to shed a parcel that may have as much or more value to Anaheim as it does to Disney (because of its not-quite-right size) and gain a theme park sized parcel that it can work with in the ways it knows best.

...for example. Disney swaps it's ~75 acre Toy Story lot for 75 acres of Angel Stadium, then buys the remaining 75 aces for 2.5 million an acre, or $185 million. Anaheim uses the cash plus a bond to contribute to the new stadium (along with the team owner), which the city would own, in a public-private partnership. The team leases and operates the stadium and commits to stay in Anaheim through 2075, and the team gets retail/housing development rights on the remaining portion of the land, which drives tax revenues, but a certain amount of affordable housing is required.

 

[Distorian]

...for example. Disney swaps it's ~75 acre Toy Story lot for 75 acres of Angel Stadium, then buys the remaining 75 aces for 2.5 million an acre, or $185 million. Anaheim uses the cash plus a bond to contribute to the new stadium (along with the team owner), which the city would own, in a public-private partnership. The team leases and operates the stadium and commits to stay in Anaheim through 2075, and the team gets retail/housing development rights on the remaining portion of the land, which drives tax revenues, but a certain amount of affordable housing is required.

As a baseball fan I love the idea of making Angel Stadium a "downtown" ballpark like Petco, Busch, or PNC - all excellent stadiums. However, for it to be done "properly" it would likely require a corner spot on the lot which is currently taken up by a few hotels. Additionally, the outfield would be facing away from Disneyland, which I think is a shame, meaning the nosebleeds would overlook Garden Walk instead (not that the current view from Angels Stadium is anything special). Another point, the Angels currently receive all parking revenue which would be lost if moved "downtown." Lastly, Angel Stadium is the forth oldest ballpark, so while not particularly extraordinary it is sad to see history lost.

 

[Nirya]

I wouldn't be shocked if there was a Disney/City of Anaheim land-swap/sale in order to build a new MLB stadium with parking garage at Toy Story. This would be part of a deal with the team owner to extend the Angel's in Anaheim, but would also bolster the convention center's capabilities, and I'm sure housing would be a part of the mixed-use project.

By downsizing in acreage, the city can convert the Angel Stadium property's excessive size into equity in a new ballpark and housing. Meanwhile Disney is able to shed a parcel that may have as much or more value to Anaheim as it does to Disney (because of its not-quite-right size) and gain a theme park sized parcel that it can work with in the ways it knows best.

I think that would first require the Angels to have new ownership. Arte Moreno screwed up the last land deal so bad that federal investigators got involved, he's pretty toxic to the city at this point.

 

[Disney Irish]

I wouldn't be shocked if there was a Disney/City of Anaheim land-swap/sale in order to build a new MLB stadium with parking garage at Toy Story. This would be part of a deal with the team owner to extend the Angel's in Anaheim, but would also bolster the convention center's capabilities, and I'm sure housing would be a part of the mixed-use project.

By downsizing in acreage, the city can convert the Angel Stadium property's excessive size into equity in a new ballpark and housing. Meanwhile Disney is able to shed a parcel that may have as much or more value to Anaheim as it does to Disney (because of its not-quite-right size) and gain a theme park sized parcel that it can work with in the ways it knows best.

The current lease would need to be broken first, which is currently set to expire in 2032 (2038 with extensions). And I can't imagine current ownership wanting to give up what they just got out of the City. So that wouldn't be likely in my opinion.

Also Disney did have the opportunity to buy that piece of land about 12 years ago, but again passed on it. Disney seems to be doing that a lot around Anaheim when these large plots of land come up for sale. Almost seems like they don't want to expand out the Resort much beyond what is already there.....

 

[Distorian]

The current lease would need to be broken first, which is currently set to expire in 2032 (2038 with extensions). And I can't imagine current ownership wanting to give up what they just got out of the City. So that wouldn't be likely in my opinion.

Also Disney did have the opportunity to buy that piece of land about 12 years ago, but again passed on it. Disney seems to be doing that a lot around Anaheim when these large plots of land come up for sale. Almost seems like they don't want to expand out the Resort much beyond what is already there.....

This really is not a good argument. Disney might very well want to expand the Resort ten years down the line, but until that day comes there's little reason to purchase the land. Although proactive, now they have additional land to pay taxes on and have to manage. This is especially true with Garden Walk. When Disney wants to take over Garden Walk to connect whatever they build on TSL to the main Resort, then they will, but until then there is no benefit to buying a failing mall.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

I love the Angels ballpark speculation but the stadium alone would be a couple billion dollars, unless there’s a back room deal already in place with the Angels owner and the city of Anaheim I don’t think Disney would even consider this, there’s a lot of stadium plans that have been “in the works” for decades, making expansion plan based on third party “what ifs” seems unlikely for Disney, I don’t think they’d let something this big rely on something/someone they don’t control.

If they still owned the Angels I think it would be more likely, even then they’d be on the hook for a $2 Billion baseball stadium though so it probably wouldn’t make sense financially.

 

[Distorian]

In a hypothetical scenario where Disney provides land to the Angels to build a stadium, the ideal location is the Simba Lot. The views from the nosebleeds overlooking Paradise Pier, Grizzly Peak would be elite, and on late summer nights you'd be able to see the Disneyland fireworks and World of Color. Obviously there'd be some real problems with traffic and parking, and I don't know why Disney would want this, but it'd be an awesome ballpark experience.

 

[Disney Irish]

This really is not a good argument. Disney might very well want to expand the Resort ten years down the line, but until that day comes there's little reason to purchase the land. Although proactive, now they have additional land to pay taxes on and have to manage. This is especially true with Garden Walk. When Disney wants to take over Garden Walk to connect whatever they build on TSL to the main Resort, then they will, but until then there is no benefit to buying a failing mall.

Other than costs being higher later on, and potentially being locked out of future land because one didn’t act when it was available. Ever hear the saying “You snooze, you lose”….

Your GW example is perfect, Disney passed it multiple times. Maybe the assumption is that it’ll be available later on because “GW always fails and is always up for sale in a couple years”. Well what if it turns around and the mall gets a bunch of long term tenants including hotels and becomes successful, now it’s not for sale or it’s too cost prohibitive to buy plus break all those leases. So Disney is now locked out of getting GW because it didn’t act when it should have.

No sometimes things happen for a reason. Disney does something because they have no plans for such now or in the future, no matter how fans feel about it.

Also if you think a few Million dollar tax bill on unused property is something Disney worries about then you don’t realize how much money Disney makes in a day around DLR, or the fact that with corporate accounting that tax bill can be used as a write off which would make Disney more money in the long run.

 

[DrStarlander]

By the way, to be clear, I'm not saying the Angels scenario I described is likely. I was responding to the comment by @BrianLo. I don't think it would be shocking though. The situation with the team is tenuous and a change/resolution of some sort seems destined in the 2030s. Without a new stadium, it's unimaginable that the team stays. The Toy Story land Disney owns is not a perfect fit in all the ways we've been discussing for days.

However, for it to be done "properly" it would likely require a corner spot on the lot which is currently taken up by a few hotels.

I get what you're saying, but I don't think that is a hinderance. In fact I think there would likely be retail component directly to the west, along Harbor, accessible from the convention center and the ballpark would be inset into the property, rather than the wonderful but not entirely necessary old-timey ballpark siting.

Additionally, the outfield would be facing away from Disneyland, which I think is a shame, meaning the nosebleeds would overlook Garden Walk instead (not that the current view from Angels Stadium is anything special).

The home-plate to centerfield line would need to go east/northeast. There would be nice views of DL from the right side, kind of like T-Mobile Park's views of downtown Seattle from the right side.

Another point, the Angels currently receive all parking revenue which would be lost if moved "downtown."

The new deal would be full of trade-offs and considerations in every direction. This project would also have a parking structure which could be owned by the city, or owned by the team, leased one way or the other, and revenue spits every which direction. It's all park of a big package.

Lastly, Angel Stadium is the forth oldest ballpark, so while not particularly extraordinary it is sad to see history lost.

That's the issue. I can't see the Angels staying past their current lease without a new ballpark, somewhere, regardless of ownership.

The current lease would need to be broken first, which is currently set to expire in 2032 (2038 with extensions). And I can't imagine current ownership wanting to give up what they just got out of the City.

If the scenario happened, the lease wouldn't be "broken," it would be an entirely new deal supplanting the old deal on terms everybody agrees to.

 

[Disney Irish]

If the scenario happened, the lease wouldn't be "broken," it would be an entirely new deal supplanting the old deal on terms everybody agrees to.

In such a scenario the current lease if its still in effect would have to be dissolved somehow, its a legal document that doesn't just go away on its own because a new lease is created. In layman's terms we call that "breaking the lease", as you probably know. So its not "broken" in the sense that someone did something illegal to get out of it, its "broken" in that it was dissolved prior to the end of its terms, again as you probably know. Very common practice in business.

 

[GravityFalls]

In a hypothetical scenario where Disney provides land to the Angels to build a stadium, the ideal location is the Simba Lot. The views from the nosebleeds overlooking Paradise Pier, Grizzly Peak would be elite, and on late summer nights you'd be able to see the Disneyland fireworks and World of Color. Obviously there'd be some real problems with traffic and parking, and I don't know why Disney would want this, but it'd be an awesome ballpark experience.

A plan 30 years in the making... Disney's America!

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

The current lease would need to be broken first, which is currently set to expire in 2032 (2038 with extensions). And I can't imagine current ownership wanting to give up what they just got out of the City. So that wouldn't be likely in my opinion.

I don’t think they’d break the lease either but even if they broke ground tomorrow it would likely be 3-4 years minimum before it was ready, with pre-construction design work, environmental studies, etc I’d be shocked if they could actually build a stadium before the lease ends.

Depending on Disneys timeline I think this would be a huge ding against using the Angels land also, between constructing the new ballpark and demolishing the old one it would probably be a decade before groundbreaking on a new park could even start, add another half decade for park construction and opening date would be pushing 2040, or they build on what they’ve got and it’s open and making money nearly a decade earlier

 

[Disney Irish]

I don’t think they’d break the lease either but even if they broke ground tomorrow it would likely be 3-4 years minimum before it was ready, with pre-construction design work, environmental studies, etc I’d be shocked if they could actually build a stadium before the lease ends.

Depending on Disneys timeline I think this would be a huge ding against using the Angels land also, between constructing the new ballpark and demolishing the old one it would probably be a decade before groundbreaking on a new park could even start, add another half decade for park construction and opening date would be pushing 2040, or they build on what they’ve got and it’s open and making money nearly a decade earlier

Yep, and if the lease ends prior to a new ball park being built Angel's would be able to do at minimum a year-to-year lease in order to continue playing at the existing park with guarantees until the new park is finished, ie they aren't going anywhere for the foreseeable future.

And all of this assumes that Disney is wanting to build a 3rd gate within the next decade, if at all, and not 25+ years in the future.

 

[Nirya]

The Angel Stadium situation gets resolved when Moreno sells. He was already contemplating it a few years ago, and the ensuing years have not been kind to both his perception and bottom line. The team's longtime president just resigned a week ago, and I can't imagine Moreno decides to hold on to the team much longer.

A new owner likely means a new stadium deal somewhere in Anaheim. There isn't much of a threat of the team moving since there is land available to build a new stadium in a few spots (on the current parking lot, Irvine, Tustin). That said, I do think a land swap would be something the city and team would absolutely consider. The bigger issue would be Disney and their long-term goals.

 

[Disney Irish]

The Angel Stadium situation gets resolved when Moreno sells. He was already contemplating it a few years ago, and the ensuing years have not been kind to both his perception and bottom line. The team's longtime president just resigned a week ago, and I can't imagine Moreno decides to hold on to the team much longer.

A new owner likely means a new stadium deal somewhere in Anaheim. There isn't much of a threat of the team moving since there is land available to build a new stadium in a few spots (on the current parking lot, Irvine, Tustin). That said, I do think a land swap would be something the city and team would absolutely consider. The bigger issue would be Disney and their long-term goals.

I would imagine much of it is determined by whether Moreno can renegotiate terms with Anaheim in the coming years. I doubt he is selling before the end of this decade.

Also they just promoted long time executive, and former Disney employee when Disney owned the Ducks and Angel's, Molly Jolly to being President, first female President of the team too.