Disneyland officially reopening April 30th

[TP2000]

As an early Easter present, or a late April Fool's joke, Sacramento has just released their new Guidance for Live Indoor Events (aka theaters and shows). This would seem to inform what may, or may not, be allowed at theme parks in the future...

Here is the Guidance for the Orange Tier,

Effective April 15, 2021
All venues:
• In-state visitors only, check for current CDPH Travel Advisory in effect
• All tickets delivered digital, advanced purchase only
• Pre-designated eating area (no eating/drinking allowed in seats) – 6 feet of distance.
• Suites 25% capacity, max three households. Venues: 0-1,500
• Maximum 15% capacity or 200 people, whatever is fewer
• 35% if all guests are tested or show proof of full vaccination
Venues: 1,501 and above
• 10% capacity or 2000, whatever is fewer; with modifications, and no eating/drinking
• 35% if all guests are tested or show proof of full vaccination

So, again they are asking the general public to show "proof of full vaccination" to gain access to a public accomodation. Which, as I explained above, is not a system that California has in place to use. I don't think any state does, do they? All California has done is issue little cards that could easily be reproduced by anyone with a cheap black and white printer. And yet they are asking private industry to use those cards as "proof" that customers are vaccinated. It's bizarre how clueless they appear to be on that one.

COVID-19 Resources

covid19.ca.gov

 

[Nirya]

California (and pretty much all states) do have a way to track vaccinations outside of the COVID-19 vaccine cards through the IIS. The CDC mandates that and each state has its own version (I believe California's program is called CAIR). The next step is to create a system that would allow people to verify their vaccination status using that system. Some have referred to it as a "vaccine passport" and there are systems undergoing tests in places like New York, but that would likely be the next step.

And sure, right now it is possible to duplicate the vaccine cards if you know what you're doing. But I have to imagine the people who are willing to go to that length in order to game the system in these scenarios were already doing similar things regardless. Security theater works by dissuading the majority of bad-faith actors, and I imagine this policy would still dissuade people from breaking those rules.

 

[ToTBellHop]

As an early Easter present, or a late April Fool's joke, Sacramento has just released their new Guidance for Live Indoor Events (aka theaters and shows). This would seem to inform what may, or may not, be allowed at theme parks in the future...

Here is the Guidance for the Orange Tier,

Effective April 15, 2021
All venues:
• In-state visitors only, check for current CDPH Travel Advisory in effect
• All tickets delivered digital, advanced purchase only
• Pre-designated eating area (no eating/drinking allowed in seats) – 6 feet of distance.
• Suites 25% capacity, max three households. Venues: 0-1,500
• Maximum 15% capacity or 200 people, whatever is fewer
• 35% if all guests are tested or show proof of full vaccination
Venues: 1,501 and above
• 10% capacity or 2000, whatever is fewer; with modifications, and no eating/drinking
• 35% if all guests are tested or show proof of full vaccination

So, again they are asking the general public to show "proof of full vaccination" to gain access to a public accomodation. Which, as I explained above, is not a system that California has in place to use. I don't think any state does, do they? All California has done is issue little cards that could easily be reproduced by anyone with a cheap black and white printer. And yet they are asking private industry to use those cards as "proof" that customers are vaccinated. It's bizarre how clueless they appear to be on that one.

COVID-19 Resources

covid19.ca.gov

I suspect Disney would just go with 15% capacity. They won’t touch vaccine passports early and certainly not before kids can get vaccine. I don’t even know why we are talking about this as a society. People are allowed (encouraged?) to have kids.

Perhaps PhilharMagic (12 min), Disney Jr (over 15 min), Lincoln (over 15 min), and Tiki Room (right around 15 min?) are worth offering with the 15% restriction but nothing else, I’d guess. But perhaps the 15 min limit only applies to moving attractions and not stationary ones, because...reasons.

 

[TP2000]

California (and pretty much all states) do have a way to track vaccinations outside of the COVID-19 vaccine cards through the IIS. The CDC mandates that and each state has its own version (I believe California's program is called CAIR). The next step is to create a system that would allow people to verify their vaccination status using that system. Some have referred to it as a "vaccine passport" and there are systems undergoing tests in places like New York, but that would likely be the next step.

That type of interstate system is years away. Adding vaccination status to things like Real ID government issued identification would take years for most states. Heck, California had over a decade to implement the basic Real ID requirements for our drivers licenses, and they fell hopelessly behind for years and still needed an extension.

And sure, right now it is possible to duplicate the vaccine cards if you know what you're doing. But I have to imagine the people who are willing to go to that length in order to game the system in these scenarios were already doing similar things regardless. Security theater works by dissuading the majority of bad-faith actors, and I imagine this policy would still dissuade people from breaking those rules.

Sure, cheaters are going to cheat. But this is silly. It's a little paper card with scribbled ballpoint pen on it. That's all we have.

And Sacramento expects those cards to be used by 40 Million Californians to give the general public access to public accommodation and private industry? Heck, after the fifth or sixth time you pull it out of a wallet it begins to fray and degrade. It's just paper, it's not laminated or plasticized in any way. It's also noticeably larger than a credit card, so you are forced to fold it to put it in a wallet or billfold.

That's just silliness designed to invite fraud, or to invite businesses to simply ignore it entirely. It will probably be the latter.

 

[MarvelCharacterNerd]

Sounds like it’s officially the honor system for in state residency.

Well that should go well then...

 

[MarvelCharacterNerd]

• 35% if all guests are tested or show proof of full vaccination

That's gonna be a tough one for the Disney Junior Dance Party. Just sayin'...

 

[Nirya]

That type of interstate system is years away. Adding vaccination status to things like Real ID government issued identification would take years for most states. Heck, California had over a decade to implement the basic Real ID requirements for our drivers licenses, and they fell hopelessly behind for years and still needed an extension.



Sure, cheaters are going to cheat. But this is silly. It's a little paper card with scribbled ballpoint pen on it. That's all we have.

And Sacramento expects those cards to be used by 40 Million Californians to give the general public access to public accommodation and private industry? Heck, after the fifth or sixth time you pull it out of a wallet it begins to fray and degrade. It's just paper, it's not laminated or plasticized in any way. It's also noticeably larger than a credit card, so you are forced to fold it to put it in a wallet or billfold.

That's just silliness designed to invite fraud, or to invite businesses to simply ignore it entirely. It will probably be the latter.

See, you say this, but we're already seeing it being implemented in various countries throughout the world. And here, the federal government, now that it actually gives a damn about the virus, is working with private businesses to develop something that can work here. And again, we already have something similar that exists: the WHO has the International Certificate of Vaccination or Prophylaxis, which has existed since the 1930s to prove that people have required vaccines and are not bringing a transmittable disease out of an infected area.

For further reading, here's a few articles going into the pros and cons at the moment:

Everything you need to know about "vaccine passports"

Including that you shouldn't call them vaccine passports.

www.motherjones.com

Covid-19 Vaccine Passports Are Coming. What Will That Mean?

Scores of plans to verify immunity are in the works. But there are even more questions about how they’ll use data, protect privacy—and who gets certified first.

www.wired.com

I will point out that there are downsides at the moment. Obviously data protection is a concern, but there are downsides regarding technology (requiring a smartphone app necessarily hurts lower-income individuals and those who refuse to upgrade, something we've seen here with Disney switching to the Disney apps to do things at the parks) and access to the vaccine. But even with all that, it looks like something along this vein will exist by the summer, if not earlier, as governments around the world start to look at life after vaccinations become widespread.

 

[ToTBellHop]

See, you say this, but we're already seeing it being implemented in various countries throughout the world. And here, the federal government, now that it actually gives a damn about the virus, is working with private businesses to develop something that can work here. And again, we already have something similar that exists: the WHO has the International Certificate of Vaccination or Prophylaxis, which has existed since the 1930s to prove that people have required vaccines and are not bringing a transmittable disease out of an infected area.

For further reading, here's a few articles going into the pros and cons at the moment:

Everything you need to know about "vaccine passports"

Including that you shouldn't call them vaccine passports.

www.motherjones.com

Covid-19 Vaccine Passports Are Coming. What Will That Mean?

Scores of plans to verify immunity are in the works. But there are even more questions about how they’ll use data, protect privacy—and who gets certified first.

www.wired.com

I will point out that there are downsides at the moment. Obviously data protection is a concern, but there are downsides regarding technology (requiring a smartphone app necessarily hurts lower-income individuals and those who refuse to upgrade, something we've seen here with Disney switching to the Disney apps to do things at the parks) and access to the vaccine. But even with all that, it looks like something along this vein will exist by the summer, if not earlier, as governments around the world start to look at life after vaccinations become widespread.

Sure, but these countries need to reckon with the issue of children, who are not eligible for vaccine, who will not be for awhile because it hasn‘t really been a priority, and who (we’ve been told for a year) are not at significant danger due to the virus. Realistically, for this to work, kids will have to get a free pass.

 

[mickEblu]

Vaccine passport? GMAFB

Thank you @chadwpalm i didn’t know how much I needed this in my internet vocabulary.

 

[ToTBellHop]

Vaccine passport? GMAFB

Thank you @chadwpalm i didn’t know how much I needed this in my internet vocabulary.

I’m in favor of them for international travel as it would ease traveling into other countries with different rules for entry. But I really do not see how it works within the US. Americans do not like being told what to do, so trying to coerce people with a vaccine passport to go to the movies will blow up spectacularly and likely turn off people who might otherwise be open to vaccination. Think about what happens every time there are whispers of gun control measures.

We specifically chose to use a vaccination method that is not particularly well-tracked and federal support for vaccine passports has been half-hearted, at best. This is America. My prediction: we make vaccine available to everyone, specifically targeting those less-likely to vaccinate just to get as many arms as possible, and then declare the pandemic over and go back to work and school while the EU bickers for many further months about whose fault the rollout was and more countries follow Britain’s lead and leave the EU.

I have a US Passport and a completed vaccine card in my fire safe. If I compare the 2, my US Passport is very well laminated and would be difficult to damage or counterfeit. My vaccine card is cheap cardstock that they didn’t even make as counterfeit-proof as a dollar bill. It is clear, as they were being developed, that no one really thought you’d be bringing your vaccine card anywhere other than your doctor’s office, and certainly not to Krispy Kreme or Disneyland. So, make a system to make international travel easier and put this thing to bed. Obsessing over individuals within our own country is absurd. When trying to control a pandemic, you don’t focus on individuals within a country (though you do manage entry points into the country to control further viral introduction). You look at the population. If 85% of those over 65 are vaccinate, it does not matter that Jim Smith, 86, is not.

 

[Sailor310]

Here's some news, gang. We'd heard they removed the Frozen equipment/show entirely from the Hyperion, but it may be good news for other parks or theater shows at Disneyland... And the goalposts are moving very fast now!

California to allow indoor concerts, theater and other events starting April 15

The decision marks a major step forward for many kinds of entertainment that have been prohibited over the last year.

www.ocregister.com

"California will allow indoor concerts, theatrical performances and other gatherings starting April 15. The move comes as COVID-19 cases in the state continue to drop, according to the Associated Press.

Masks will remain mandatory and attendance will be limited depending on which state-established tier an individual county is in.

Proof of full vaccination or testing will also be required for admittance."

Although it's that last sentence that makes me laugh.

I have a small piece of paper that says I got a shot. I have several friends now, one of whom I drove both times down to Soka University and stood by her as she got both shots 21 days apart, who are fully vaccinated. All have a small piece of paper, light cardstock, with some typing on it and a nurses scribble with a ballpoint pen showing the dates of both shots. There is no barcode, no serial number, no QR code, and no permanent identifying information on it. They were kept in boxes by the thousands and given to people randomly as they arrived at Supersites and hospitals for a shot.

1,000 of these cards could be made in 20 minutes by a 12 year old with a $35 dollar black and white printer.

California has no regulated system of quickly proving or establishing who has been vaccinated and who has not. All us vaccinated people have is a 4 inch little card, that seemed designed more to remind us when our next shot was than anything else.

The only thing a theater, or theme park, or arena, or festival experience could do is to ask to see your little card. And if that were to become an industry trend in California, you know darn well these little nonsense cards would be produced by the millions to anyone who had 5 bucks to buy one.

I thought the same thing. I figured that I'd get the official, unique to me card at the second dose, but nooooo!

It seems like we used (1960s) to have to carry our yellow international shot records around in our passports to prove we'd gotten the yellow fever, cholera, etc.. shot before entering Thailand, Taiwan, Vietnam, etc...

 

[George Lucas on a Bench]

Just flash your TB card. Looks the same.

 

[Disney Irish]

Sure, but these countries need to reckon with the issue of children, who are not eligible for vaccine, who will not be for awhile because it hasn‘t really been a priority, and who (we’ve been told for a year) are not at significant danger due to the virus. Realistically, for this to work, kids will have to get a free pass.

Pfizer is already about to submit data to the CDC/FDA that shows vaccine is safe and effective for those aged 12-15. So we're actually looking at end of summer maybe sooner when those age groups can get the vaccine. So its just a matter of time when its available for those under 12, my best guess at this point is before the end of the year.

 

[TP2000]

See, you say this, but we're already seeing it being implemented in various countries throughout the world. And here, the federal government, now that it actually gives a damn about the virus, is working with private businesses to develop something that can work here. And again, we already have something similar that exists: the WHO has the International Certificate of Vaccination or Prophylaxis, which has existed since the 1930s to prove that people have required vaccines and are not bringing a transmittable disease out of an infected area.

For further reading, here's a few articles going into the pros and cons at the moment:

Everything you need to know about "vaccine passports"

Including that you shouldn't call them vaccine passports.

www.motherjones.com

Covid-19 Vaccine Passports Are Coming. What Will That Mean?

Scores of plans to verify immunity are in the works. But there are even more questions about how they’ll use data, protect privacy—and who gets certified first.

www.wired.com

I will point out that there are downsides at the moment. Obviously data protection is a concern, but there are downsides regarding technology (requiring a smartphone app necessarily hurts lower-income individuals and those who refuse to upgrade, something we've seen here with Disney switching to the Disney apps to do things at the parks) and access to the vaccine. But even with all that, it looks like something along this vein will exist by the summer, if not earlier, as governments around the world start to look at life after vaccinations become widespread.

Great.

I renewed my driver's license in the fall of 2019 and got my first Real ID eligible identification then.

Where do I got to get my updated California Real ID driver's license with my embedded digital vaccination information in it? The DMV office in Fullerton? The Auto Club office in Anaheim Hills? I don't like to brag, but I'm an Auto Club Premier member.

It will be 2028 or later until that is actually available to me.

In the meantime, an usher at the Hyperion Theatre is asking to see my paper card with the nurse's ballpoint pen scribbles on it.

 

[ToTBellHop]

Pfizer is already about to submit data to the CDC/FDA that shows vaccine is safe and effective for those aged 12-15. So we're actually looking at end of summer maybe sooner when those age groups can get the vaccine. So its just a matter of time when its available for those under 12, my best guess at this point is before the end of the year.

Absolutely, which is why I chuckle a bit when CNN implies you’ll need a vaccine passport in America this summer. Somewhere around 55% of Americans are likely to be vaccinated fully by 7/1. I can’t see many businesses being interested in excluding 45% of people. Let’s hope cases are low enough by then that the point is moot.

 

[Disney Irish]

Absolutely, which is why I chuckle a bit when CNN implies you’ll need a vaccine passport in America this summer. Somewhere around 55% of Americans are likely to be vaccinated fully by 7/1. I can’t see many businesses being interested in excluding 45% of people. Let’s hope cases are low enough by then that the point is moot.

Well my opinion based on current trends is that it’ll be closer to 65% by July 1st, but otherwise agree with your point.

Personally I have no issue with having a vaccine “passport” but understand others might. I think any talk about it for this country is for mass gathering locations like airports, stadiums, theme parks, etc. Which then means that in my opinion most small businesses, ie most everyday locations we visit, wouldn’t be requiring one if it becomes a thing. Now outside this country I can see it becoming a requirement for most public locations, especially in Asian countries and especially for foreigners.

In other news I’ll be getting my first dose in a couple hours.

 

[celluloid]

Why are you guys arguing over semantics and something that is beyond your own control that has nothing to do with you?

I am not arguing. I was simply reminding everyone of the facts that it is goin to be a percentage of available capacity, not the capacity of the park with everything open.

 

[ToTBellHop]

Well my opinion based on current trends is that it’ll be closer to 65% by July 1st, but otherwise agree with your point.

Personally I have no issue with having a vaccine “passport” but understand others might. I think any talk about it for this country is for mass gathering locations like airports, stadiums, theme parks, etc. Which then means that in my opinion most small businesses, ie most everyday locations we visit, wouldn’t be requiring one if it becomes a thing. Now outside this country I can see it becoming a requirement for most public locations, especially in Asian countries and especially for foreigners.

In other news I’ll be getting my first dose in a couple hours.

FYI on my math—the vaccine is currently open to adults, and I wouldn’t expect anyone to be fully vaccinated by summer. Adults are 78% of the population and roughly 70% of them are willing to take vaccine. 70% of 78% is 54.6%.

Good luck on dose 1!

 

[celluloid]

Absolutely, which is why I chuckle a bit when CNN implies you’ll need a vaccine passport in America this summer. Somewhere around 55% of Americans are likely to be vaccinated fully by 7/1. I can’t see many businesses being interested in excluding 45% of people. Let’s hope cases are low enough by then that the point is moot.

For sure.
That is all just fear mongering sensationalism. If the disease rebounds to where it was before or worse, yes. If it only gets better, than no such thing will likely ever be administered, especially domestically.

 

[ToTBellHop]

For sure.
That is all just fear mongering sensationalism. If the disease rebounds to where it was before or worse, yes. If it only gets better, than no such thing will likely ever be administered, especially domestically.

Not sure why they keep thinking that scaring people is the way to convince them to do something they don’t want to do. Very soon, everyone who wants vaccine will have had it. The fence sitters, in my experience, do not respond well to fear-mongering or coercion.