News Disney transforms Magic Kingdom's famous purple wall to celebrate PRIDE Month at Walt Disney World and will donate merch profits to support LGBTQIA+

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Tony the Tigger

Well-Known Member
🤮🤮🤮

"Fake pandering" "soulless redesign" "the true meaning and reason for celebrating Pride"

Pride was born when BLACK and BROWN TRANS women stood their ground and lead the Stone Wall Riots. Every bit of rights we have today all stem back to the original brick thrown at Stonewall by Marsha P. Johnson. Updating the Pride flag to honor her legacy is anything but "pandering" or "soulless", and couldn't be a better representation of the reason for celebrating Pride.
We all played a part.

I see both sides of the flag thing. The original was meant to be, and therefore is, already all-inclusive. There are no green-skinned people represented by the green stripe.

So IMO extra colors are superfluous. But I can understand why people want more explicit representation. Doesn't bug me either way.
 

Tony the Tigger

Well-Known Member
One of my store windows featured in this post.
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Stupido

Well-Known Member
We all played a part.

I see both sides of the flag thing. The original was meant to be, and therefore is, already all-inclusive. There are no green-skinned people represented by the green stripe.

So IMO extra colors are superfluous. But I can understand why people want more explicit representation. Doesn't bug me either way.

I understand the sentiment of "we all played a part." It was a community movement, and we moved mountains together. That should never be forgotten.

In addition to paying homage to Marsha and the dolls, I think the updated flag goes a long way to re-instill the idea of community. My experience growing up was a very divided Queer community. I remember the days (2010s) where online dating profiles boasted "No Spice, No Rice, No Fats, No Femmes." Black men were highly sought after for a good time, but no one wanted to actually date a man of color. Lesbians were considered less-than, and often unwelcome in Gay spaces. When the trans community really started breaking into mainstream culture, the derogatory language found in profiles was flat out unrepeatable. For a very long time we had a huge problem with racism and transphobia within our own community. Unfortunately, remnants of it still exist today, but so much progress has been made in just 10(ish) years. I think updating the flag has gone a long way to reignite the idea of togetherness in the Queer community, and I for one couldn't be happier for its existence.
 

Disney Analyst

Well-Known Member
I understand the sentiment of "we all played a part." It was a community movement, and we moved mountains together. That should never be forgotten.

In addition to paying homage to Marsha and the dolls, I think the updated flag goes a long way to re-instill the idea of community. My experience growing up was a very divided Queer community. I remember the days (2010s) where online dating profiles boasted "No Spice, No Rice, No Fats, No Femmes." Black men were highly sought after for a good time, but no one wanted to actually date a man of color. Lesbians were considered less-than, and often unwelcome in Gay spaces. When the trans community really started breaking into mainstream culture, the derogatory language found in profiles is flat out unrepeatable. For a very long time we had a huge problem with racism and transphobia within our own community. Unfortunately, remnants of it still exist today, but so much progress has been made in just 10(ish) years. I think updating the flag has gone a long way to reignite the idea of togetherness in the Queer community, and I for one couldn't be happier for its existence.

Very well said.

The updated flag wasn’t born from nothing. The LGBTQ2+ community was very much being dominated by white, gay men.
 

Tony the Tigger

Well-Known Member
I understand the sentiment of "we all played a part." It was a community movement, and we moved mountains together. That should never be forgotten.

In addition to paying homage to Marsha and the dolls, I think the updated flag goes a long way to re-instill the idea of community. My experience growing up was a very divided Queer community. I remember the days (2010s) where online dating profiles boasted "No Spice, No Rice, No Fats, No Femmes." Black men were highly sought after for a good time, but no one wanted to actually date a man of color. Lesbians were considered less-than, and often unwelcome in Gay spaces. When the trans community really started breaking into mainstream culture, the derogatory language found in profiles was flat out unrepeatable. For a very long time we had a huge problem with racism and transphobia within our own community. Unfortunately, remnants of it still exist today, but so much progress has been made in just 10(ish) years. I think updating the flag has gone a long way to reignite the idea of togetherness in the Queer community, and I for one couldn't be happier for its existence.
It's all incredibly complicated, varied by area, and impossible to boil down in one post.

I didn't even come out until my mid-20's in the mid-90's. I remember being at karaoke at one gay bar in NJ, and we decided to go to a more dance-y bar afterwards, just me and a few other people, including one lesbian. I had no idea we'd get blowback for bringing a lesbian, but more than one person said something to me, and I told them off. How stupid.

Then I moved to South Florida, a place with an actual gay community/neighborhood. I tended bar in a gay bar. I heard everything. There were gay men who didn't want women around to "intrude." And there were lesbian bars where very few men went as well. Just a few years ago there was an issue because there was a weekly Sunday T-dance at a clothing-optional gay resort near the beach, and women started showing up (some lesbians, some not) and it curbed the nudity factor, so they resented it.

One stereotype that holds true: lesbians are often not the best tippers. LOL.

There is just as much racism in the gay community as in the straight community. That's reality, and frankly, to be expected. And the African American community was very much politically against gay rights until recently as well.

There were a lot more gay white men around than others, again that's just a fact of life. I've been to African American gay bars in Atlanta. I know some people fetishize other nationalities in all directions. And some people just have "types." I mostly dated white guys but there are nicer ways to put it than the typical, "no this, no that." Then again, online dating was just budding right before I got married, so I didn't use it much, and frankly it was not intended to meet people for long-term relationships. So I get people putting restrictions up there for efficiency. If I'm looking for a big ol' bear type guy for tonight, there is no amount of intellectual rationale that's going to get me in bed with a skinny, young guy.
 

Disney Analyst

Well-Known Member
I’m speaking on my behalf. I hate what the community is becoming and I’m allowed to call it out. You’re entitled to feel differently and that’s fine. :)

This is the revision of history I’m talking about. Marsha was not trans, he was a drag queen. He has gone on record stating that very fact. Additionally, it’s well proven that Marsha was not even at Stonewall when the riots began.

"Today, historians and former friends of Marsha describe her as a trans woman. During Marsha’s lifetime, the term transgender was not commonly used. Marsha described herself as a gay person, a transvestite, and a drag queen. She used she/her pronouns."

...

"Marsha’s life dramatically changed when she found herself near the Stonewall Inn in the early hours of June 28, 1969. That night, police officers raided the gay bar. As the officers began to arrest people for violating various discriminatory laws, the patrons of the Stonewall fought back.

While there are many conflicting stories about the uprising’s start, it is clear that Marsha was on the front lines. In one account, she started the uprising by throwing a shot glass at a mirror. In another, she climbed a lamppost and dropped a heavy purse onto a police car, shattering the windshield. Young trans women like Marsha were particularly vocal that night because they felt they had nothing to left to lose. Their rage was not just about the police. It was about the oppression and fear they felt every single day."


 

SaucyBoy

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
"Today, historians and former friends of Marsha describe her as a trans woman. During Marsha’s lifetime, the term transgender was not commonly used. Marsha described herself as a gay person, a transvestite, and a drag queen. She used she/her pronouns."

...

"Marsha’s life dramatically changed when she found herself near the Stonewall Inn in the early hours of June 28, 1969. That night, police officers raided the gay bar. As the officers began to arrest people for violating various discriminatory laws, the patrons of the Stonewall fought back.

While there are many conflicting stories about the uprising’s start, it is clear that Marsha was on the front lines. In one account, she started the uprising by throwing a shot glass at a mirror. In another, she climbed a lamppost and dropped a heavy purse onto a police car, shattering the windshield. Young trans women like Marsha were particularly vocal that night because they felt they had nothing to left to lose. Their rage was not just about the police. It was about the oppression and fear they felt every single day."


I’m sorry to say but second hand accounts are not valid in my eyes. If Marsha didn’t identify as trans then she wasn’t trans. It’s tacky to impose that identity on someone who is no longer with us. My friends could say that I was a trans woman because I’m very flamboyant, love wearing pink, dye my hair, and sometimes paint my nails; but they would be wrong.
 

Disney Analyst

Well-Known Member
I’m sorry to say but second hand accounts are not valid in my eyes. If Marsha didn’t identify as trans then she wasn’t trans. It’s tacky to impose that identity on someone who is no longer with us. My friends could say that I was a trans woman because I’m very flamboyant, love wearing pink, dye my hair, and sometimes paint my nails; but they would be wrong.

Her own words, which was one of the main terms used at the time:

“If a transvestite doesn't say I'm gay and I'm proud and I'm a transvestite… nobody else is going to say it for them."

– Marsha P. Johnson


It's not like we can ask her today under the context of our current knowledge and progress, how she truly identified.

I would say listening to those who knew her, and historians, is the next best step in any situation like this.

You are welcome to interpret this differently, but it does not mean your assertions are correct.
 

BuddyThomas

Well-Known Member
Absolutely, but the same can be said of your assumptions about how they identified. This new wave of woke homophobia that attempts to erase homosexuals by focusing on gender over sex is just disturbing. Your type need to realize that your attitude about being woke is doing more harm than good for our community. But I digress. A Disney forum isn't really the most ideal place to discuss this.
Ya know, it’s funny that you are suddenly asserting that a Disney forum is not the place to discuss this when you are the one who escalated the discussion with some seriously offensive rhetoric.
 

Tony the Tigger

Well-Known Member
Her own words, which was one of the main terms used at the time:

“If a transvestite doesn't say I'm gay and I'm proud and I'm a transvestite… nobody else is going to say it for them."

– Marsha P. Johnson
Transvestite and transgender are two different things.

I was born in 1971. If anyone was transgendered in 1969, I’d be surprised. I seem to remember the earliest gender reassignment surgery making the news when it was first done in Europe.

One can guess this person may have been transgendered if she grew up in today’s world, but that would be speculative.

I don’t care the make up of who were at the Stonewall in 1969. They were gay people, and they fought back. I have great respect and appreciation for them.

But it seems millennials don’t want to show the same respect and appreciation for my generation, who moved the ball forward. They like to criticize that the movement wasn’t perfect. Instead I am on the receiving end of the attitude that I’m white and cis, so what could I possibly know?

I know my marriage was just as much not legally recognized. I know we were just as damaged from being kicked out of the house and disowned. I know we were just as much called gay slurs.

I also know we still had some advantage of “white privilege” in some circumstances; while in other circumstances, anti-gay prejudice negated that.

It’s not a competition. I’m glad younger generations benefit from our struggles to the point they take their starting point for granted. That’s what we were fighting for. They could be a little kinder to those of us who did the heavy lifting while they take the ball and run closer to perfecting it.
 

SaucyBoy

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
Transvestite and transgender are two different things.

I was born in 1971. If anyone was transgendered in 1969, I’d be surprised. I seem to remember the earliest gender reassignment surgery making the news when it was first done in Europe.

One can guess this person may have been transgendered if she grew up in today’s world, but that would be speculative.

I don’t care the make up of who were at the Stonewall in 1969. They were gay people, and they fought back. I have great respect and appreciation for them.

But it seems millennials don’t want to show the same respect and appreciation for my generation, who moved the ball forward. They like to criticize that the movement wasn’t perfect. Instead I am on the receiving end of the attitude that I’m white and cis, so what could I possibly know?

I know my marriage was just as much not legally recognized. I know we were just as damaged from being kicked out of the house and disowned. I know we were just as much called gay slurs.

I also know we still had some advantage of “white privilege” in some circumstances; while in other circumstances, anti-gay prejudice negated that.

It’s not a competition. I’m glad younger generations benefit from our struggles to the point they take their starting point for granted. That’s what we were fighting for. They could be a little kinder to those of us who did the heavy lifting while they take the ball and run closer to perfecting it.
Wonderful perspective and I just want you to know that, as a 30 year old, I have nothing but the utmost respect for your generation and everything you did for us today! I hate how you guys are treated today and it’s part of the reason I’ve become so disillusioned.
 

Disney Analyst

Well-Known Member
Transvestite and transgender are two different things.

I was born in 1971. If anyone was transgendered in 1969, I’d be surprised. I seem to remember the earliest gender reassignment surgery making the news when it was first done in Europe.

One can guess this person may have been transgendered if she grew up in today’s world, but that would be speculative.

I don’t care the make up of who were at the Stonewall in 1969. They were gay people, and they fought back. I have great respect and appreciation for them.

But it seems millennials don’t want to show the same respect and appreciation for my generation, who moved the ball forward. They like to criticize that the movement wasn’t perfect. Instead I am on the receiving end of the attitude that I’m white and cis, so what could I possibly know?

I know my marriage was just as much not legally recognized. I know we were just as damaged from being kicked out of the house and disowned. I know we were just as much called gay slurs.

I also know we still had some advantage of “white privilege” in some circumstances; while in other circumstances, anti-gay prejudice negated that.

It’s not a competition. I’m glad younger generations benefit from our struggles to the point they take their starting point for granted. That’s what we were fighting for. They could be a little kinder to those of us who did the heavy lifting while they take the ball and run closer to perfecting it.

I do want to note I know there is a difference, but I do think in those years the terminology was not quite where we are now, and there was a much more blurred line.

I could be incorrect, her calling herself a transvestite may be fully by the dictionary definition.

We can't guess what she meant from the context of today, and really only have what her friends and historians believe to be true.
 

SaucyBoy

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
What is “woke homophobia?” I’ve never heard that before.
It’s a phrase used to describe individuals and activists who display homophobia toward gays and lesbians who chose not to date or have sex with trans people because they’re not the same sex. Some will say it’s a “genital fetish” or tell them they just “haven’t found the right one” or that it’s “just a phase” which are all common phrases used by radical anti gay groups in the late 20th century. That rhetoric turns me off because it’s very non consenting and tries to frame homoSEXual attraction as something that can be easily changed.
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
It’s a phrase used to describe individuals and activists who display homophobia toward gays and lesbians who chose not to date or have sex with trans people because they’re not the same sex. Some will say it’s a “genital fetish” or tell them they just “haven’t found the right one” or that it’s “just a phase” which are all common phrases used by radical anti gay groups in the late 20th century. That rhetoric turns me off because it’s very non consenting and tries to frame homoSEXual attraction as something that can be easily changed.
Thank you for explaining!
 

Tony the Tigger

Well-Known Member
I could be incorrect, her calling herself a transvestite may be fully by the dictionary definition.
Meanings of words evolve, which is why context is important.

It’s almost certain that word was meant to refer to a cross-dresser back then. You could be a straight transvestite.

I’ve never heard it used interchangeably with transgender except by straight people who had no idea what they were talking about. I know lots of transgendered folks and my guess is they wouldn’t appreciate being called transvestite. I could be wrong.
 

Disney Analyst

Well-Known Member
Meanings of words evolve, which is why context is important.

It’s almost certain that word was meant to refer to a cross-dresser back then. You could be a straight transvestite.

I’ve never heard it used interchangeably with transgender except by straight people who had no idea what they were talking about. I know lots of transgendered folks and my guess is they wouldn’t appreciate being called transvestite. I could be wrong.

Yes absolutely.

It's very possible when Marsha referred to herself as a transvestite, that was the best wording/terminology she had at the time to identify herself. I am not sure the exact history of when Transgender itself became widely used and understood, although seeing some reference that it was brought about around 1969.

Regardless, I think you understand what I was trying to get across. We again do not know how she would identify under the context of 2022. I was just going off of what many articles written from accounts of those who know her thought.

I want to assure that I am in no way insinuating Transvestite and Transgender are the same.
 

Tony the Tigger

Well-Known Member
Oh, boy. Let's talk about pronouns.

Per usual, it's not simple.

Nobody in 1969 "had pronouns" in the context currently being used. Nobody in 2005 "had pronouns" like that. If someone had surgery in the last 20 years and became a she, then it's almost certain they used the pronoun "she." They didn't just pick one. It matched their gender.

Gay men (at least of a certain age) very, very often casually refer to each other as "she." That's not a chosen pronoun. It's familial. One guy talking to another guy about their mutual friend: "Oh, girl...you know she did the walk of shame dis mornin'!" Very common. Doesn't mean anything. They also often referred to their boyfriends (long-term or one-night) as "husbands." Underground cultures make up their own norms.

Today, as of *very* recently, people are picking pronouns. Fine. Don't expect me to remember your pronoun if I don't know you very well. (I probably won't remember your name until we've met several times LOL.) Don't get mad at me for accidentally calling you he when you want to be they. That's not fair to the vast majority of the population who are unaware unless you are wearing a pronoun name tag. I can barely remember Sam Smith and one of the former Disney actresses are now "they." Good for them. Seriously, whatever makes you happy. But I'll probably refer to Sam as "he" when talking with friends and probably "they" if I ever met them in person. That's just being realistic.

It's like getting mad at someone who says Merry Christmas and you used to celebrate Christmas but you don't anymore. Understanding goes both ways.

There is a difference between someone who says, "I will not respect your pronouns" vs. someone who makes a mistake, and no 80 year old woman should be held to the standard of Gen Z if she is making an honest mistake or forgot or whatever.

Get angry when people are trying to hurt you, not when they accidentally hurt you.

And don't Z-splain to me things you have only read about that I lived through.

I often encourage young people to watch TV shows from the 70's and 80's to get an idea and some perspective on what was "acceptable" back then. These things didn't age well, but they were definitely "norms." Watch Bo Duke talk about women. Watch the n-word being used by a white woman in the "North And South" miniseries (and many other shows - the point being it was not 100% forbidden yet.) Watch Judy Garland as a young teenager in blackface in a film where she was just doing what she was told and nobody objected. It was wrong, but it was also socially acceptable at the time. And we cannot go back and convict people of things they did wrong based on today's standards.

What I don't understand is we were taught that kind of empathy for racist grandparents who were "from a different time," but younger people today seem to prefer purity tests - which are tests they *will* eventually fail themselves, by the standards of future generations.

Where is the wisdom in that?
 

BuddyThomas

Well-Known Member
Because our great country only has one gay conservative?

Also since you guys are all off topic can someone answer me this question? What would Uncle CLifford from P Valley be classified as with in the gay community? He uses she/her pronouns , dresses like a woman but never shaves and like his facial fair.
This article may explain it to you.

 
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