Disney Skyliner shutdown and evacuation - October 6 2019

[drizgirl]

I've lived here since 1974. And we're not talking predictions weeks in advance or even a day. I'm saying storms build with enough time that any decent meteorologist can see on radar that a storm is brewing ... it certainly doesn't happen in minutes. Do you know how long it takes a cumulous cloud to build? They will have plenty of time to shut down. Hell, even in 1974, when In worked Gran Prix we had plenty of notice to shut down before a storm rolled in. Believe it or not, meteorology doesn't consist of looking out the window and sticking a wet finger in the air. And if you think they can't tell a storm is building before it actually arrives, I can only assume you failed science in school. Bye

Switzerland should send their meteorologists over here for some added training then. To avoid a repeat of this week's incident.

 

[Rich Brownn]

Switzerland should send their meteorologists over here for some added training then. To avoid a repeat of this week's incident.

I believe they were aware of the winds and were in the process of shutting down. But I didn't see any reference to a storm. Maybe is as just high winds being funneled by the mountain?

 

[Heppenheimer]

I believe they were aware of the winds and were in the process of shutting down. But I didn't see any reference to a storm. Maybe is as just high winds being funneled by the mountain?

Sudden high winds and abrupt weather changes are a regular feature of life in the Alps.

 

[RustySpork]

Sudden high winds and abrupt weather changes are a regular feature of life in the Alps.

Why didn't Doppelmayer design for high winds? Abrupt weather changes are also a regular feature of life in Florida, why can we detect it in advance while they cannot?

 

[Andrew C]

Why didn't Doppelmayer design for high winds? Abrupt weather changes are also a regular feature of life in Florida, why can we detect it in advance while they cannot?

I imagine the design can handle high winds, but then at a certain point it is deemed unsafe (where evacs are necessary), and then at a later point it is downright dangerous. Kind of like your house is good in 50 mph winds, getting iffy at 100mph, and then "I hope you are not home" at 200mph...

 

[RustySpork]

I imagine the design can handle high winds, but then at a certain point it is deemed unsafe (where evacs are necessary), and then at a later point it is downright dangerous. Kind of like your house is good in 50 mph winds, getting iffy at 100mph, and then "I hope you are not home" at 200mph...

Absolutely, I was just pointing out some of the flawed logic that's been going around this thread. According to the thread logic they should be able to detect/predict the weather change in advance and be able to completely evac the Gondola system long before the wind reaches it.

 

[Incomudro]

Absolutely, I was just pointing out some of the flawed logic that's been going around this thread. According to the thread logic they should be able to detect/predict the weather change in advance and be able to completely evac the Gondola system long before the wind reaches it.

Well, they should really.
That's part of the idea.
Wind speeds in excess of whatever the gondola's can handle should be detectable with sufficient time to bring the cabins in.
If say 60MPH is the top wind speed that the system should handle when in use.
Well, those speeds don't just come out of nowhere.

 

[RustySpork]

Well, they should really.
That's part of the idea.
Wind speeds in excess of whatever the gondola's can handle should be detectable with sufficient time to bring the cabins in.
If say 60MPH is the top wind speed that the system should handle when in use.
Well, those speeds don't just come out of nowhere.

Absolutely, those winds don't just come out of thin air . Any decent meteorologist can detect wind speed fluctuations using anemometers, doppler, lidar, or sodar far enough in advance to have plenty of notice to bring them.

 

[Minthorne]

Well, those speeds don't just come out of nowhere.

Don't they?

 

[Heppenheimer]

According to the thread logic they should be able to detect/predict the weather change in advance and be able to completely evac the Gondola system long before the wind reaches it.

Said nobody.

Ski lift systems, whether chair lifts, gondolas, or aerial tramways are designed and built with a certain amount of wind tolerance. The standard practice is that if there is a reasonable prediction of winds (or actually measured winds) that exceed the safety limit (I have no idea on the specifics of any ski resort's exact risk assessment method), they will stop loading the lifts, but keep them running until all the remaining passengers are off. Once that last passenger gets off the lift, they will generally stop the system until conditions improve. It obviously is not a perfect solution, but given the vagaries of Alpine weather, which can be much more volatile than Flordia, it appears to work rather well, given the extremely low rate of injuries directly caused by ski lifts. Your biggest risk at a ski resort is from... well, the inherently dangerous act of actually skiing, not the transportation method that brings you to the top of the mountain.

So, can you completely reduce the risk of the gondolas to zero? No, but barely any human activity we voluntarily engage in carries zero risk. But when Bretton Woods ski resort re-opens for the season in a few weeks, I will gladly ride their new gondola.

 

[RustySpork]

According to the thread logic they should be able to detect/predict the weather change in advance and be able to completely evac the Gondola system long before the wind reaches it.

Said nobody.

I love that you aren't quoting me.

Nobody, eh?

"I'm saying storms build with enough time that any decent meteorologist can see on radar that a storm is brewing ... it certainly doesn't happen in minutes." - @Rich Brownn

"Again, it requires clouds to build. They build quickly but not that quickly. And decent meteorologist can tell you if conditions are building for a storm long beforehand." - @Rich Brownn

 

[Heppenheimer]

I love that you aren't quoting me.

Nobody, eh?

"I'm saying storms build with enough time that any decent meteorologist can see on radar that a storm is brewing ... it certainly doesn't happen in minutes." - @Rich Brownn

"Again, it requires clouds to build. They build quickly but not that quickly. And decent meteorologist can tell you if conditions are building for a storm long beforehand." - @Rich Brownn

Did they say that the gondolas should be able to be 100% evacuated?

 

[GoofGoof]

Are we really still on this weather thing? We aren’t talking predicting weather a week out. Every pool, boat and ride that doesn’t operate in thunderstorms manages to shut down in time when the storm approaches but the magical clouds over the gondola will emerge spontaneously and people will be trapped.

 

[Goofyernmost]

But I see a problem in that scenario. If any car derails from the haul line, how does anyone know the root cause? Here we are weeks after the incident and no word from Disney about the details. Why has Disney remained silent on this issue? I suspect that if they were honest about what really happened, it would frighten most guests.

Therefore, in your hypothetical situation, if the individual gondola is to blame (because let's say the gondola grip is bent or broken) then your proposal to "just get those cars out of the way of the others and we can run it" makes perfect sense.

But what if other factors are involved? Let's say the haul line is defective. If you just get obstructing gondolas out of the way in order to run the rest of the gondolas, then you're putting everyone at serious risk. Or, for example, let's say one of the haul line motors is defective. Then again you would not want to restart the line.

For a system this complex I think you'd need a very experienced person to troubleshoot the root cause(s) before restarting the system. And, as in the previous incident, if you're not sure what went wrong it's better just to halt the system until you're sure it's safe to restart. And that could take many hours.

I don't know much about the system, but my guess is that they have the ability to operate the system completely manually if necessary. The situation was local, happening in one spot to two gondola's. It wasn't rope wide. For every event completely different options exist and making the right choice is what differentiates between people that don't have a clue what they are doing and those that do. clearing the rope and attempting to move it "slowly" would quickly let them know if they can continue to bring the cabins in or not.

 

[RustySpork]

Did they say that the gondolas should be able to be 100% evacuated?

Yep.

I've lived here since 1974. And we're not talking predictions weeks in advance or even a day. I'm saying storms build with enough time that any decent meteorologist can see on radar that a storm is brewing ... it certainly doesn't happen in minutes. Do you know how long it takes a cumulous cloud to build? They will have plenty of time to shut down. Hell, even in 1974, when In worked Gran Prix we had plenty of notice to shut down before a storm rolled in. Believe it or not, meteorology doesn't consist of looking out the window and sticking a wet finger in the air. And if you think they can't tell a storm is building before it actually arrives, I can only assume you failed science in school. Bye

 

[Goofyernmost]

I love that you aren't quoting me.

Nobody, eh?

"I'm saying storms build with enough time that any decent meteorologist can see on radar that a storm is brewing ... it certainly doesn't happen in minutes." - @Rich Brownn

"Again, it requires clouds to build. They build quickly but not that quickly. And decent meteorologist can tell you if conditions are building for a storm long beforehand." - @Rich Brownn

Yes, but can you imagine the push back from guests if they are redirected while they completely empty the gondola's and have to wait out in the rain and possibly lightning only to have the storm fizzle out or change direction before it actually gets there. Isn't the maximum time it takes to have a gondola reach any station about 8 minutes. That means the they can stop loading about 10 minutes before it gets there. I know I personally would be upset if I had to stand out in the rain and lightning rather then be in the relative safety of the Gondola. Unless the wind gets really strong (hurricane force) I don't think they will stop the things because of a fast moving storm. They might hold back loading for a short time, but I don't think they will stop the rope because of a thunderstorm.

 

[RustySpork]

Yes, but can you imagine the push back from guests if they are redirected while they completely empty the gondola's and have to wait out in the rain and possibly lightning only to have the storm fizzle out or change direction before it actually gets there. Isn't the maximum time it takes to have a gondola reach any station about 8 minutes. That means the they can stop loading about 10 minutes before it gets there. I know I personally would be upset if I had to stand out in the rain and lightning rather then be in the relative safety of the Gondola. Unless the wind gets really strong (hurricane force) I don't think they will stop the things because of a fast moving storm. They might hold back loading for a short time, but I don't think they will stop the rope because of a thunderstorm.

Oh, I think being in a gondola in a thunderstorm is a pretty safe place to be, and I've said that already. If there's wind with it, I hope I have a poncho but I'll still ride it out.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Oh, I think being in a gondola in a thunderstorm is a pretty safe place to be. If there's wind with it, I hope I have a poncho but I'll still ride it out.

I was wondering if there were instructions to close down the vents if a storm enters or are they permanently open. I'm guessing the latter.

 

[RustySpork]

I was wondering if there were instructions to close down the vents if a storm enters or are they permanently open. I'm guessing the latter.

The only instructions when I rode it were stickers (the usual stay seated while on the ride picture stickers) on the windows and I didn't get a picture of them. Haven't been on them since then, but only because I haven't been over to WDW since yet. I want to say the vents were adjustable, but I really don't recall unfortunately.

 

[RollerCoaster]

Well, they should really.
That's part of the idea.
Wind speeds in excess of whatever the gondola's can handle should be detectable with sufficient time to bring the cabins in.
If say 60MPH is the top wind speed that the system should handle when in use.
Well, those speeds don't just come out of nowhere.

It's very clear that most of you don't know a lot about ski lifts and don't have a lot of experience riding them.

Many gondolas that are built today DO NOT HAVE CABIN PARKING. In other words they don't remove the cabins from the line for weather events. If weather suddenly arrives Disney is more than likely NOT going to remove the cabins from the various lines. They stay put.

Second, YOU DO NOT rope evacuate a lift unless there is no way for the lift to operate. If wind or weather suddenly arrives the best practice is to stop loading and continue to run that lift at a reduced speed or with stops and starts to unload the remaining riders. If the wind is too strong to run at all then then riders remain on the lift and you wait. Only after an extended period or if the riders were in immediate danger would you rope evacuate the lift. Rope evacuations take a lot of time and should be avoided until absolutely necessary.

The manufacturer (Dopelmayr in this case) determines basic safe operating conditons for the lift. Some of the determination however is decided visually by the operator. Anemometers mounted on the towers and nearby areas monitor weather conditions. The control computer will stop a lift when wind (speed and direction) doesn't allow for safe operation. Wind speed, wind gusts, and direction determine when a lift can operate and at what speed (this is the second part).

Most lifts have thresholds for operations. There is point where wind speed and direction will necessitate the slow down of the lift, but not the closure and there is another point where it necessitates the shut down of the lift. If the wind is variable (gusting) then the lift may be in a situation where it may operate, but may slow and stop periodically as necessary to account for the wind gusts.