Disney Skyliner shutdown and evacuation - October 6 2019

[Mark IV Fan]

Flight of Passage had extensive outdoor queues without full shade people waited in for HOURS during the peak of the day... for months on end. Not a strawman at all... a key example of people being trapped in line OUTSIDE... WITHOUT A/C.. and being 'trapped' where they are. And worse.. on their feet. People were not melting nor being hauled away in droves on stretchers.

I guess I shouldn’t bother to point out the fact that the people were outdoors and weren’t going to get any hotter than what the temperature was. Or that they could probably leave the line to get a drink or use the bathroom if they wanted at almost any time and then get back in. Or that if people decided they’d had enough, and decided to stop waiting in line, they could and go in an air conditioned building and get food/water almost immediately. The reason you didn’t see people being taken away on stretchers is they had the OPTION an any time to decide they’d had enough and fix how they were feeling.
I also guess it doesn’t make a difference that, it being a thrill ride with restrictions, you weren’t going to be seeing babies, young children, a lot of elderly and other people with medical conditions in that line for FOP since none of them would be riding the attraction in the first place. The people in those lines were, generally speaking, in good health and not on either extreme end of the age spectrum.

That’s quite a bit different from a general transportation mode that is supposed to be safe for everyone and will be ridden by babies, children, elderly, people with medical issues, along with the generally healthy people.

So what’s you response for that? Still doesn’t make any difference? People who can’t handle possibly being stuck for 3 hours are supposed to just avoid it?

 

[WheelsUpRN]

Wonder if they classified the Skyliner as a ride rather than transportation.

According to NTSB’s website...
“The National Transportation Safety Board is an independent Federal agency charged by Congress with investigating every civil aviation accident in the United States and significant accidents in other modes of transportation – railroad, highway, marine and pipeline.”

About the NTSB

www.ntsb.gov

This is not a major accident.

 

[WheelsUpRN]

So does Disney get to investigate themselves?

I’m sure OSHA will be involved.

 

[natatomic]

Flight of Passage had extensive outdoor queues without full shade people waited in for HOURS during the peak of the day... for months on end. Not a strawman at all... a key example of people being trapped in line OUTSIDE... WITHOUT A/C.. and being 'trapped' where they are. And worse.. on their feet. People were not melting nor being hauled away in droves on stretchers.

Okay, but no one is TRAPPED in those queues. If they start to overheat, they can pop out of line for some a/c, or they can drink some of their water or other beverages they probably bought knowing they’re gonna be in line outside for a while. No one is packing for a 3 hours wait stranded in the air before boarding a gondola.

Regardless, when I worked at Everest as a CM many moons ago, we had to call 911 for people passing out in the “tea garden” part of the queue on a near weekly basis. Because it’s so dang hot. This isn’t something that never happens at Disney. It happens probably daily in all four parks during any of our warm months because 1) people aren’t used to our heat and 2) people vastly underestimate how much water they should be drinking and how much food they should be eating. These reasons aren’t Disney’s fault. Being trapped somewhere hot because of something that went wrong on Disney’s end...is

Anyway, I’d bet my money that 9/10 times you see a stretcher in Disney when it’s hot out, it’s for someone having heat exhaustion or worse, heat stroke. So yeah, people who aren’t planning on spending multiple hours in a hot box probably are susceptible to getting ill from the heat.

Have you BEEN on one of these yet? Have you been stopped on one yet? I can say yes to both. And while it wasn’t unbearable when it was stopped, it still wasn’t the max temperature outside that it gets in the summer and I was only stopped for 5 minutes. More than 30 minutes in July would make for a very precarious situations for ANYONE in those.

 

[monothingie]

It was very fortunate that this occurred at night. During the day the a line evacuation could have easily turned into a MCI. RCIDFD did a great job as always, but it showed that the process was long and involved a lot of manpower. Its something that can’t be simulated on large scale for practice and I think going forward there are going to be a lot of lessons learned as to what works and what doesn’t work for a large scale evacuation.

 

[flynnibus]

I guess I shouldn’t bother to point out the fact that the people were outdoors and weren’t going to get any hotter than what the temperature was

No, that's not how heat exhaustion works. Plus, those outside in the sun without cover are constantly being fed in new energy. That's why the idea of being in shade/cover is so important.. and why the gondola's design is so important. It's not a simple glass box.

Or that they could probably leave the line to get a drink or use the bathroom if they wanted at almost any time and then get back in

Leaving the queue is not easy to do in a long extended queue.. and even those that do it is a very small percentage.

Or that if people decided they’d had enough, and decided to stop waiting in line, they could and go in an air conditioned building and get food/water almost immediately. The reason you didn’t see people being taken away on stretchers is they had the OPTION an any time to decide they’d had enough and fix how they were feeling.

The point is literally THOUSANDS of people would go through this trial and tribulations without incident every day. Maybe, just maybe, it's not as extreme as you paint it to be.

I also guess it doesn’t make a difference that, it being a thrill ride with restrictions, you weren’t going to be seeing babies, young children, a lot of elderly and other people with medical conditions in that line for FOP since none of them would be riding the attraction in the first place. The people in those lines were, generally speaking, in good health and not on either extreme end of the age spectrum.

Yet, you still see thousands of those high risk people waiting in the sun for parades, etc

Yes, some people are more susceptible to heat issues... but those same people are going to be at risk no matter what form of vehicle they are in if they do not have AC. So there is risk of this everywhere. You have to manage it and you can't account for every possible extreme. For those extreme cases, or someone in distress, Disney can evac those people first.

The problem is people are exaggerating the situation people will be in.

 

[MisterPenguin]

I’m sure OSHA will be involved.

Were employees injured?

 

[MisterPenguin]

Are all the Skyliner lines back up and running today? That will say a lot for how Disney is looking at this.

Pop line hasn't moved all day.

 

[Santa Raccoon 77]

But the monorails have a diesel tractor that can tow them into the station....So there is a plan in place to get people off ASAP.
As far as I can tell the evacuation plan for the skyliner is “Just hang in there and drink water until we get around to you.”

We get you believe monorails are the best thing since sliced bread but , the gondola system is here to stay. Don't want to ride it , dont stay at a gondola resort. Kinda a no brainer.

 

[joelkfla]

Time for speculation:

If the eyewitness account is accurate, the teal cabin, which was the next to exit Riviera station, failed to start moving after a stop, and the cabins behind it pushed into it. In the stations, the cabins ride on an overhead track and are propelled by rotating wheels above the track. I can see 3 possible causes:

1. The wheel above the teal cabin failed to start turning with the others in the station. Possibly a loss of power, motor failure, or a control system error.
2. The wheel did turn, but there was inadequate adhesion between the tire and the contact plate on the carrier, causing the tire to skid. Possibly due to a worn tire, a foreign substance on the wheel or contact plate, or the carrier being in a location where it did not make good contact with the tire.
3. At the switches into the WAV load area, cabins are propelled in the straight direction by a chain rather than wheels. The teal cabin looks like it may have been at the switch into the take-out spur. If cabins are propelled thru that switch by a chain, the chain may have failed to activate when the wheels did.

 

[flynnibus]

Okay, but no one is TRAPPED in those queues

Most are not willing to leave. And on top of that, most survive without incident. The point of the example is to show that the idea of being outside without AC for extended periods is not mass carnage like people portray it.

Regardless, when I worked at Everest as a CM many moons ago, we had to call 911 for people passing out in the “tea garden” part of the queue on a near weekly basis. Because it’s so dang hot

And did people call for Everest Queue to be shortened or made indoors because of it? Or get rid of the attraction because this risk existed?

. This isn’t something that never happens at Disney. It happens probably daily in all four parks during any of our warm months because 1) people aren’t used to our heat and 2) people vastly underestimate how much water they should be drinking and how much food they should be eating. And also 3) some people are more prone to heat exhaustion because of their specific level of health.

Yes, it's standard faire for every outdoor festival, event, gathering, etc. First Aid tents address heat exhaustion as the norm. Yet... somehow.. people don't call these events death traps, or call for them to be eliminated if they can't add A/C to the whole place.

 

[Lilofan]

This is the most popular travel destination on the face of the planet, not a bank branch. The fact that it was a weekend night should never be an excuse for having inexperienced leadership (not assuming this was the case, however).

Let's get real. Senior managers don't pull night shifts especially weekends.

 

[Mark IV Fan]

Your car does not have reflective glass panels designed to block the suns energy. Your car doesn't have nearly the amount of open window space a gondola does unless you've opened all four windows in a sedan.



Rollercoaster evacs can be very slow depending on where the vehicle stops. It's not uncommon for riders to be stuck for hours.
https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/...x-Flags-America-Officials-Say--512919701.html
https://www.travelandleisure.com/travel-news/riders-stuck-on-roller-coaster

take your pick... whenever guests are on elevated tracks, evacs are extremely cautious.

It’s amusing h

Again... the details escape you. Being stuck on monorails for extended periods is common place. Yes they have the tug... but they have to clear the line to get to that monorail... which often is where most of the delay is.

So what’s your point? That no transportation system is perfect so the Skyliner gets a free pass?

The monorail issues are because Disney has refused to replace trains that are 30 years old. Any system will have problems if things aren’t updated/replaced with any regularity.
The WDW system itself is almost 50 years old and has an excellent record even with the elderly trains.

The skyliner hasn’t even been up a few weeks and has already had a pretty significant episode. You think it’s going to get better as the system and its equipment ages?

You do realize all the ridiculous strawmen you keep throwing up does nothing to change the fact the skyliner, by all appearances, is a badly designed system built on the cheap that flagrantly disregards some serious safety and comfort issues.

Within less then an few weeks your positions have gone from “Oh I’m sure Disney has it all figured out” to “Oh yeah? What about (insert ride here) THAT has problems too! ignoring some of the obvious differences between the two.

Believe what you want, but my initial impression was it’s a lousy system designed on the cheap and nothing I’ve seen so far has changed my assessment.

Maybe not today, or next year, but sooner or later it’s going to bite Disney and I only hope no one is killed as a result.

 

[Santa Raccoon 77]

Let's get real. Senior managers don't pull night shifts especially weekends.

Yet another fact backed statement.

 

[Mark IV Fan]

We get you believe monorails are the best thing since sliced bread but , the gondola system is here to stay. Don't want to ride it , dont stay at a gondola resort. Kinda a no brainer.

Wow! That’s a great way to run a business.

 

[Hawg G]

I don't know if any current technology that would allow for 3 hours of ac operation on a system like this.

No, but you could run fans that long likely.

This is supposed to be a ‘showcase’ system for Dopplemayr, proof that these can be used safely and effectively in urban settings around the world. I can’t think of any other modern transportation system that limits evacuation in a reasonable time. Modern monorails / elevated rail systems are built with accessible walkways, for instance. 3 hours is a very long time, especially for hundreds of passengers spread over this many cabins over miles of cable. If you’re looking at the risk management of this system going forward you have to be asking a lot of questions this morning.

If the system was damaged beyond immediate repair how long would a full evacuation have taken? What kind of resources have to be on immediate standby do achieve that? What’s the likelihood of breakdown events happening in the future?

I’d love to know how much longer it would have taken to evacuate if they didn’t get it moving.

 

[durangojim]

I wonder if or how this will affect people choosing to stay at a Skyliner resort. We were planning on staying at the Riviera in January but we’re a little reluctant due to the frequent stops that had been occurring on the Skyliner. This definitely made us change to either the BC or BW.

 

[Santa Raccoon 77]

Wow! That’s a great way to run a business.

Ita working just fine for Disney.

 

[Mark IV Fan]

Most are not willing to leave. And on top of that, most survive without incident. The point of the example is to show that the idea of being outside without AC for extended periods is not mass carnage like people portray it.



And did people call for Everest Queue to be shortened or made indoors because of it? Or get rid of the attraction because this risk existed?




Yes, it's standard faire for every outdoor festival, event, gathering, etc. First Aid tents address heat exhaustion as the norm. Yet... somehow.. people don't call these events death traps, or call for them to be eliminated if they can't add A/C to the whole place.

Again you’re OUTDOORS!
On the skyliner you’re in a glass/metal box that can actually get hotter than the outside.
How is this simple fact escaping you?

 

[Santa Raccoon 77]

I wonder if or how this will affect people choosing to stay at a Skyliner resort. We were planning on staying at the Riviera in January but we’re a little reluctant due to the frequent stops that had been occurring on the Skyliner. This definitely made us change to either the BC or BW.

Only time will tell. But it will be interesting to find out.