Disney Purists vs. Disney Traditionalists

Dragonrider1227

Well-Known Member
wannab@dis said:
So Joe Rohde is not a good imagineer since he cannot stay in the confines of a budget? Or are you saying that the managers are bad because they created a budget in the first place? You HAVE to pick one of those choices.

Splash Mountain isn't completed all the way around either. Give me a break.

Dinosaur seems fine to me and most people that ride loves it. River boats ran for a while.... so it must have been wide enough. Dinoland was planned the way it is from the beginning and a LOT of money was spent on theming and it's probably one of the BEST themed areas of the park.

Blaming Eisney / "number crunchers" only shows ignorance of a simple fact. There must be a budget. When most parks add headline attractions for less than $20M, then Disney should be able to add a headliner for $100M. From most reports that I've read and seen, they did a great job with EE. If you claim otherwise, back it up with some facts.
I think Rhoda is TOO MUCH Imagineer for number crunchers to handle. Hmm, kinda like Walt. :p Does this make Walt a bad imagineer considering the number of times he practiclly nearly bankrupted his own company for his "babies?"
 

brisem

Well-Known Member
EchoOfOphelia said:
Another example, I LOVE Carousel of Progress. I'm glad that when the end scene was getting WAY too out of date, that they simply updated it instead of tearing out the ride.

I totally agree.

It gets frustrating when you see and hear all these rumors about getting rid of CoP. Especially since it was one of Walt's orginal ideas.
 

wannab@dis

Well-Known Member
EchoOfOphelia said:
That's a really tough question, because it depends on the ride we're talking about. I'm off the opinion that my very favorite attractions, Toad, 20K, Horizons should have stayed FOREVER, exactly as they are. But attractions that I don't like, Hall of Presidents, Alien Encounter, UOE, can pretty much be gutted and turned into whatever, for all I care.

I believe that change is good when its obvious that something isn't working, but just for the sake of tearing out something loved is just a shame. For example, I understand why they closed 20K, I just don't like it :D And I certainly don't like what they turned it into. I'm sure that when I bring children of my own to the parks, I will LOVE it, but right now its a waste of space to me, and it doesn't feel like a true Disney attraction.

Another example, I LOVE Carousel of Progress. I'm glad that when the end scene was getting WAY too out of date, that they simply updated it instead of tearing out the ride.
Most of your post is based on one thing... "you" ;)

That's a big problem that I see in most statements by purists/tradistionalists... they forget to factor in a major point. Their personal experience should not be the only issue at hand. TWDC/WDI has to take into account ALL guests when determining the future of the parks.

No offense intended... ok?
 

wannab@dis

Well-Known Member
Dragonrider1227 said:
I think Rhoda is TOO MUCH Imagineer for number crunchers to handle. Hmm, kinda like Walt. :p Does this make Walt a bad imagineer considering the number of times he practiclly nearly bankrupted his own company for his "babies?"
I don't consider either a "BAD" imagineer by any means... in fact, the opposite is true. However, your post goes a long way in helping to illustrate my viewpoint. :lol:
 

EchoOfOphelia

New Member
wannab@dis said:
Most of your post is based on one thing... "you" ;)

That's a big problem that I see in most statements by purists/tradistionalists... they forget to factor in a major point. Their personal experience should not be the only issue at hand. TWDC/WDI has to take into account ALL guests when determining the future of the parks.

No offense intended... ok?

:) No of course not, I completely know what you mean. The first paragraph of my thread was meant to be sarcastic, but of course I forgot to put a smiley at the end of it.

However on the other side of that, I consider myself to be a big part of Disney's demographic in terms of vacationing. I grew up going to Disney.. I am now married and we go to Disney every year... and when we have kids, I will continue to bring them to Disney.

I am actually curious if there are numbers anywhere on WHO exactly comes to Disney. Is it people like me? Or is it just the occasional vacationing family in between the years they go to the Grand Canyon and... MAN, where are places normal people go on vacation?? :eek:

Anyway, the point of my original thought was that its evident that some of the changes to WDW have been for the best and others have been disappointing, so its hard to draw a straight line and decide if its better to keep the old as they are, keep the old but update, or rip out and make way!
 

wannab@dis

Well-Known Member
EchoOfOphelia said:
:) No of course not, I completely know what you mean. The first paragraph of my thread was meant to be sarcastic, but of course I forgot to put a smiley at the end of it.

However on the other side of that, I consider myself to be a big part of Disney's demographic in terms of vacationing. I grew up going to Disney.. I am now married and we go to Disney every year... and when we have kids, I will continue to bring them to Disney.

I am actually curious if there are numbers anywhere on WHO exactly comes to Disney. Is it people like me? Or is it just the occasional vacationing family in between the years they go to the Grand Canyon and... MAN, where are places normal people go on vacation?? :eek:

Anyway, the point of my original thought was that its evident that some of the changes to WDW have been for the best and others have been disappointing, so its hard to draw a straight line and decide if its better to keep the old as they are, keep the old but update, or rip out and make way!
:lol: I was wondering if that was the case... therefore I added the last statement to be sure. :wave:

Your post is exactly on point. WDI has to make the hard decisions based on the information that they have. Since we can assume they don't go off the deep end and just throw things out there, I think we can extrapolate that we (Disney Lovers) are not a large percentage of the guests.

I think the first timers or "once in a lifetime" visitors make up the bulk of the guests and will continue to do so if WDW can expect to survive. Therefore, they have to make decisions to keep things fresh and attractive for the first timers.
 

melbatoast

New Member
I guess I'm half and half. While I don't like rides to be removed(ie. 20 000 Leagues) I still like litte additions, and support the changes made to PotC. I can accept the changes, but at the same time don't condone taking away the magic.
 

EchoOfOphelia

New Member
I wonder what happens to the imagineers who make the changes to rides that guests end up HATING.. (i.e. first change of Imagination), are they fired? Are they shot? Are they made to watch the Haunted Mansion movie over and over again??? :)
 

Dragonrider1227

Well-Known Member
EchoOfOphelia said:
I wonder what happens to the imagineers who make the changes to rides that guests end up HATING.. (i.e. first change of Imagination), are they fired? Are they shot? Are they made to watch the Haunted Mansion movie over and over again??? :)
Worse. Country Bears movie. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
I hope that's what the guys in charge of Imagination v2 got. Not the ones that made the one we have now though
 

EchoOfOphelia

New Member
Dragonrider1227 said:
Worse. Country Bears movie. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
I hope that's what the guys in charge of Imagination v2 got. Not the ones that made the one we have now though

:eek: OMG, that IS worse! That specific brand of punishment is reserved for the guy/gal who added Iago to Tiki Room and the guy/gal who took the Puffed French Toast out of the Crystal Palace :)
 

MissK

New Member
Mmmm I guess I'm a bit of a both.

I love LURVE POTC. Adore it. And I think the movie is fantastic and adding a bit of it to the new ride will only enhance it. I don't necessairly (did I spell that right?) agree with the whole "Everytime we put a film out we must have a ride" thinking nor do I think we need a hojillion Toy Story tie-ins. Then again I'm one of the people who weeped with the end of cel animation and who thinks that there should be more AA rides.

I think there needs to be a happy medium. I'm all for change but sometimes it IS best I think to let certain things be. But then again I haven't been to WDW since 1989 so I'm sure everything I saw then is completely different now, I'm more operating on what I've seen at Disneyland since I've been there more recently.

*can't wait to ride new POTC when she goes back to Disneyland this July*
 

pax_65

Well-Known Member
If they opened up a museum that paid tribute to all the Disney rides from the past, I'd go check it out. But the Disney parks aren't a museum. If a ride no longer draws in the crowds, it should be updated or scrapped. They didn't close Timekeeper because it was too crowded. But if you close a good ride, you should replace it with something much better.

* World of Motion - Test Track. UPGRADE!
* Mr. Toad - Pooh. UPGRADE!
* Horizons - Mission Space. UPGRADE (though some would argue)
* Alien Encounter - Stitch. DOWNGRADE (or at least not much of an improvement)
* 20,000 Leagues - Pooh Playland. MAJOR DOWNGRADE!

I love CoP. I consider it a Disney classic alongside Hall of Presidents. I will really miss it when it's gone. If they close it and put in an attraction with cutting-edge technology, a great story and theme, and great animatronics, I'd understand in the name of progress. But if they closed it and put in a character meet & greet, or some kind of stage show, I'd be very angry. Whatever replaces it should be extra special.
 

wannab@dis

Well-Known Member
pax_65 said:
If they opened up a museum that paid tribute to all the Disney rides from the past, I'd go check it out.
You'd probably be pretty lonely. :lookaroun :D

pax_65 said:
But the Disney parks aren't a museum. If a ride no longer draws in the crowds, it should be updated or scrapped. They didn't close Timekeeper because it was too crowded. But if you close a good ride, you should replace it with something much better.

* World of Motion - Test Track. UPGRADE!
* Mr. Toad - Pooh. UPGRADE!
* Horizons - Mission Space. UPGRADE (though some would argue)
* Alien Encounter - Stitch. DOWNGRADE (or at least not much of an improvement)
* 20,000 Leagues - Pooh Playland. MAJOR DOWNGRADE!

Agree on all except the last one. Give them time and when MK needs a new E-ticket, I have a feeling I know where it will be placed!
 

dxwwf3

Well-Known Member
wannab@dis said:
You'd probably be pretty lonely. :lookaroun :D

From what I've seen on some DL sites, the current 50 year exhibit has been drawing in good crowds and One Man's Dream has stayed around longer than expected due to popularity.

I'm not saying a huge museum would be a great idea business wise though. Just giving some food for thought. I just don't think the audience for that style of attraction is as small as you would like it to be :)
 

wannab@dis

Well-Known Member
dxwwf3 said:
From what I've seen on some DL sites, the current 50 year exhibit has been drawing in good crowds and One Man's Dream has stayed around longer than expected due to popularity.

I'm not saying a huge museum would be a great idea business wise though. Just giving some food for thought. I just don't think the audience for that style of attraction is as small as you would like it to be :)
You may be right... however, I still think it would not be a good financial investment by any means.
 

dxwwf3

Well-Known Member
wannab@dis said:
You may be right... however, I still think it would not be a good financial investment by any means.

Oh I'm not disagreeing with that. As a fan, I would LOVE to see some sort of One Man's Dream type attraction that covers WDW and its attractions. I would spend hours there. But I don't think Disney will do anything like that and I shouldn't expect them to.

However, a wise member on this forum once said, sometimes Disney does go above and beyond for its guests ;) (Yeah I'm takling to you speck :wave: ).
 

pax_65

Well-Known Member
They used to have a cool exhibit inside the building where Tony's Restaurant is located, just to the right as you enter Magic Kingdom. It contained a little history of the parks and provided some clues about what might be coming next - sketches, etc. It was a "must visit" for me back in the days before Internet rumor boards.

Here's an online "museum" of sorts for Disneyland. Some Disneyworld info here too, though:

http://www.yesterland.com/
 

Tim G

Well-Known Member
JustinTheClaw said:
Part of the problem in that respect is that the Imagineers are have not been getting the money they need to do the best job possible. Take Expedition Everest, for example. Joe Rhode really made this project his baby. He put a lot of thought and research and planning into it. The problem was he was only alotted $100 million for R&D, pre-planning, and execution.That may seem like a lot, but it really isn't.
The Tower of Terror in Florida cost $140 million (and that was in 1994 dollars).
The Tokyo version is running close to $200 million (and looks amazing).

Before some of you start telling me it is completed, take a trip to Animal Kingdom and pay attention to the Forbidden Mountain as you come across on Osceola Parkway, or even from the parking lot. Because of budget restraints, the Imagineers and construction crews were forced to leave half of the mountain unbuilt. (In fact, while working behind Rafiki's Planet Watch yesterday I saw some of the unused pieced of the mountain strewn about in a field backstage.)

We're not going to see quality work from the Imagineers until the number crunchers realize what Walt and Roy learned decades ago: you have to spend money in order to make money. I blame Eisner for this. Hopefully with John Lasseter as head of animation and Imagineering and Steve Jobs as prime shareholder we will see some great things come out of the Imagineers, because they'll finally have the cooperation they need from upper management.

1st... A piece of history:

Walt assembled the imagineering group after he'd already built a successful movie studio and begun to establish himself in television.
The simple motivation: He was unhappy with the entertainment options available to his young daughters.

From the start, Walt asked the Imagineers to do the impossible, whether it was creating believably spooky apparitions for the Haunted Mansion or getting a mechanical Abe Lincoln to rise from his chair and deliver the Gettysburg Address.

The group held/holds more than 300 patents, for things like precision-timed fireworks, 3-D movie cameras, motion simulators, talking water fountains, fog machines, and a means for creating artificial rain.

From the start, Walt treated Imagineering as his private playground, doling out ideas for different attractions, prowling the hallways late at night to review work that had been done that day, even acting out the roles of the animatronic figures.

While Walt was still alive, Imagineering was insulated from much financial scrutiny. Roy Disney, the company's CFO and Walt's older brother, is said to have set foot in Imagineering exactly once. Two of Walt's favorite mantras were "You can't put a price tag on creativity" and "If we lose our customers, it'll cost us twice as much to get them back.

[FONT=verdana, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]It wasn't that the Imagineers operated without budgetary constraints, Walt often suggested ways to work more frugally. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]But after his death, WDI became just another part of the company, one with a reputation for missing deadlines and exceeding cost estimates. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The Epcot park, based on an idea of Walt's and opened in 1982, cost an estimated $1.2 billion — an overrun of several hundred million dollars.[/FONT]
By the end of the Disney Decade, WDI's staff had grown from a low of 300 after Epcot opened to 3000.
[FONT=verdana, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The Imagineers seem to know that the tricks in their bag are getting stale, that they've got to keep groping for the next new thing. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]It takes kids a whole lot more to wow them, t[/FONT][FONT=verdana, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]he sophistication of the audience, and their expectations, increases every year.[/FONT]


2nd... Disney also finds itself competing with hundreds of entertainment options that didn't exist in the Eisenhower era, from Imax movies to massively multiplayer games.
A placid boat ride past sets of harmonizing, doe-eyed dolls just doesn't cut it for kids raised on Quake and MTV.
[FONT=verdana, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Turmoil within the group hasn't helped matters much. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]A lot of Disney fellows left, frustrated that the company wasn't taking their advice seriously.[/FONT]

For the Imagineers, building a ride like Expedition Everest is a reminder of the good old days, a visible indicator that everything is actually OK.
If there's a perception that the business guys have taken over, I would point out that the projects they are doing now have the same or higher budgets as they've had before.

3rd... You can not compare WDW with Tokyo Disney, Glendale is under budget, Tokyo isn't..
[FONT=verdana, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Tokyo DisneySea exceeded first-year attendance goals. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]With DisneySea, the Imagineers were told to spare no expense, since the park's construction was being paid for by a partner, the Oriental Land Company. and still is...[/FONT]
Tokyo DisneySea, is lavishly funded entirely by the Japanese partner, has blown past all projections.

4th... Joe Laseter, again, only is head of feature Animation, and certainly not of Walt Disney Imagineering...

5th... Expedition Everest IS completed, the building visible from the "parking lot" was meant to stay that way... (and I don't need to yell...)
and BTW If it's not finished as you say, Mr Iger and Mr Laseter could have finished it as Michael Eisner was long gone when Everest opened...
So if they are the saviours of the parks they had time (4 months) to do so...

Don't forget that the Disney Company, is not only about WDW, only a small piece of the cake is Parks...

6th The last part of the quote consists only an opinion from someone who obviously doesn't know what upper managemnt means... (I mean no harm) :)
 

MissK

New Member
Corrus said:
3rd... You can not compare WDW with Tokyo Disney, Glendale is under budget, Tokyo isn't..
[FONT=verdana, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Tokyo DisneySea exceeded first-year attendance goals. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]With DisneySea, the Imagineers were told to spare no expense, since the park's construction was being paid for by a partner, the Oriental Land Company. and still is...[/FONT]
Tokyo DisneySea, is lavishly funded entirely by the Japanese partner, has blown past all projections.
AH-HA! Thank you for that Corrus, I had no idea Tokyo was not under a budget. I really wish that some of those rides could be brought over..one of things I'm most looking forward to when I go to Japan is going to DisneySea and riding StormRider.
 

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