Disney Parks Revenue up

[Ralphlaw]

I
I can say with strong confidence almost all of the Operating Income Growth at P&R will come from Domestic Parks with WDW the primary contributor over the next 5 years.

Domestic P&R is the company's growth engine for the foreseeable future. How things have changed!






I would never call for the complete dissolution of Disneyland Paris. It has beneficial agreements, strong local buy in, a good location, and other contractual items that would make it a tough sell. That's also ignoring the success Parc Disneyland has found too.

No, what I would say is Walt Disney Studios needs to be completely rethought or razed. At this point the park is a Sunk Cost. There's no path forward that will ever ensure a positive guest experience up to the Disney Parks Brand. It is an awful excuse for a Disney Park.

I say start fresh as @dreamfinder has said (you blew my mind when you first said it, but honestly it's a no brainer). Take the whole thing down. Build a park that's good.

There are decent items within the park, but those are corrupted by horrendous placemaking and poor master planning. This bad design also hurts its neighbor park too.

It's unacceptable, and if they're prepared to spend Billions, why start within a framework that will ensure structural issues?

Never before has a Disney Park waved the white flag. Never before has a Disney Park been that awful.

Build it right, and never worry about it again. I'm sure those hotels would fill up nicely again too...

(I know about weak Tourism in France, but a good product can only help)

I disagree a bit, although I must admit that I haven't thought all of this through completely.

First, I do not foresee Orlando as the core of growth because it's one location, and is already the leading tourist attraction in the entire world. There's lots of acreage, but there's only so many people who can get there via cars or planes. I would have to think that untapped new areas for parks ala Shanghai and elsewhere would have far more growth potential than Orlando. For example, Disneyland South America, Disneyland India, Disneyland Middle East. Of course, if Orlando added a fifth park . . . .

Second, Studios at Disneyland Paris is definitely an odd park. Yet they've invested over $100,000,000 into it, and you can't just bulldoze that away. Rat just opened there. and it definitely has some attractions that are worth saving. It needs attention, but the bulldoze method is not what you want to do. Tweak and redesign, like they did with California Adventure.

Also, remember that the day DLP opened it became (and still is) the number one tourist attraction in Europe. It's still not popular enough and/or doesn't generate sufficient income and/or is too expensive to run and/or is too expensive to visit and/or is too American in a non-American period in history and/or had too much debt attached to it. It's a fine park, beautiful. But, like Mission Space, it ultimately disappoints, overcharges, and takes forever just to get lunch or a snack. Yet it's definitely worth visiting.

 

[larryz]

Domestic P&R is the company's growth engine for the foreseeable future. How things have changed!

I'm not sure I'd agree with that -- movies are the engine... plunk down $250 million on a Marvel film and you're almost guaranteed a return twice that. Plunk down $250 million in WDW, and for $1.75 billion more you can get a magicband-based ride rationing system.

Never before has a Disney Park waved the white flag. Never before has a Disney Park been that awful.

I think they did a pretty good job tweaking DCA. Maybe they'll be able to use that same imaginuity to fix Paris.

 

[Ralphlaw]

They should have bought the Island of Malta and start building Euro-Disney World...

At one level that won't work because people would have to take a boat or fly in to get there. Yet once they're, there, what a captive audience you'd have. The hotel part of the business would definitely be profitable.

 

[larryz]

At one level that won't work because people would have to take a boat or fly in to get there. Yet once they're, there, what a captive audience you'd have. The hotel part of the business would definitely be profitable.

I saw Westworld when it first came out, and that's the first thing I thought of...

 

[Ponda Baba]

You make a good point. ESPN's Achilles heel is that it doesn't own the most profitable part of its business. Sure it owns the production, but it doesn't own the product. If the NFL, NBA, MLB ever decided to create their own "on demand" service, it would negate the importance of ESPN. The leagues won't do that right now because frankly they are getting too much by licensing the rights. But then again, all the leagues do have their own networks...the minute they believe they can monetize it better than the current model, well then you will see some type of change.

MLB has already done this for years. I'm watching the Cubs on MLB.TV right now. MLB Advanced Media powers NHL streaming service and HBO streaming services as well. Disney already owns 1/3 of MLBAM with an option to purchase another 1/3.

 

[rushtest4echo]

for $1.75 billion more you can get a magicband-based ride rationing system.

The fastpass portion of MM+ was a miniscule portion of the cost of the entire project. The rest was infrastructure related which literally brought much of the resort out of the stone age. Tens of thousands of rooms, thousands of POS systems, new network backbones throughout the entire property (much of which was still using phonelines). Then of course there was the software, hardware, and automation upgrades on the back end which will save hundreds of millions in labor hours.

But yes, lets distill the largest infrastructure investment ever made by a theme park operator anywhere down to electronic fastpass. Sure sounds ridiculous when you frame it that way especially if people take such an idiotic inference at face value.

I'm pretty sure the notion of MM+ being a colossal waste of money is simply bitterness over Disney's lack of investment elsewhere around the resort. But it wasn't a bad investment, much of the upgrades were correcting mistakes of deferred money saving stuff that was killing effeciency around the whole resort. Anyone with basic knowledge of the actual MM+ project knows how desperately needed most of the upgrades were and they're certainly aware the the investment will pay dividends in the long run.

I still find it baffling that MM+ didn't cost twice as much, given the scope and length of the project. Especially when you compare it to the costs of stuff like Pandora or Carsland.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

The fastpass portion of MM+ was a miniscule portion of the cost of the entire project. The rest was infrastructure related which literally brought much of the resort out of the stone age. Tens of thousands of rooms, thousands of POS systems, new network backbones throughout the entire property (much of which was still using phonelines). Then of course there was the software, hardware, and automation upgrades on the back end which will save hundreds of millions in labor hours.

But yes, lets distill the largest infrastructure investment ever made by a theme park operator anywhere down to electronic fastpass. Sure sounds ridiculous when you frame it that way especially if people take such an idiotic inference at face value.

I'm pretty sure the notion of MM+ being a colossal waste of money is simply bitterness over Disney's lack of investment elsewhere around the resort. But it wasn't a bad investment, much of the upgrades were correcting mistakes of deferred money saving stuff that was killing effeciency around the whole resort. Anyone with basic knowledge of the actual MM+ project knows how desperately needed most of the upgrades were and they're certainly aware the the investment will pay dividends in the long run.

I still find it baffling that MM+ didn't cost twice as much, given the scope and length of the project. Especially when you compare it to the costs of stuff like Pandora or Carsland.

HUGE portions of MM+ were completely unnecessary for the business being run. The suits didn't sit in a conference room and say "hey... Let's give everyone free wifi in the parks! That would be swell!!" Or... "You know how much more convenient it would be for guests to wear a device to open their hotel room door instead of reach in their pocket and pull out a keycard?? That's SO stone age!!"

No.

They sat in a room and talked about data mining.

They talked about tracking.

They talked about targeted marketing.

About developing a ticketing system that they could have absolute and complete control over, all from behind a curtain so that there was no way the public would ever know what was going on, and how they were manipulating things behind the scenes.

They talked about ways to monetize the idea. Indirectly, and I'm QUITE certain, directly as well. (It's coming)

They likely talked about tiers based on money spent by guests. Staying in a Deluxe? Well, you're going to pay rack rates, but you'll also get 2 extra fastpasses per person per day during your stay! (It's coming)

They talked about what they thought would be such an awesome, incredible system, competing resorts would pay for the use of the dozens of patents they would create (nevermind the fact that the other Disney resorts all across the planet don't even want it).

They talked about cruise ships. They studied research about how people end up spending more money when cash isn't involved. They wanted to exploit that.

They talked about Pavlov's theory. Ring the bell, dog drools, gets a treat. They applied the theory with the light up mickey's all over to elicit that positive connotation subconsciously. Then they put those same Mickeys at the cash registers. You think that was random?

Shall I go on?

This system wasn't NECESSARY. At all. Portions of it could have been done if it were deemed necessary to bring areas out of the "stone age"... Though I would argue very little was honestly NEEDED.

FP could have been altered and improved for a fraction of the cost of what they did. And Disney has admitted that. Want proof? Visit their latest park in Shanghai and see what they did. And that was well after MM+ was developed and running.

Guest wifi is absolutely not a necessity. Despite what millenials will argue.

Tens of thousands of doors for guest rooms worked swell with the keycard.

So did thousands of POS units.

This was all about squeezing more blood out of the turnip. And you and anyone else that doesn't believe that is naieve.

The hilarious part is how far off they were. How far off they were on budget... On upkeep... On the expected response from guests... On the expected demand from other resorts (both Disney and non)... And on countless other expected measurables.

 

[EricsBiscuit]

There is WIFI in Shanghai despite not using MM+. Tokyo is still in the Medival era and does not have WIFI.

 

[Disney Analyst]

HUGE portions of MM+ were completely unnecessary for the business being run. The suits didn't sit in a conference room and say "hey... Let's give everyone free wifi in the parks! That would be swell!!" Or... "You know how much more convenient it would be for guests to wear a device to open their hotel room door instead of reach in their pocket and pull out a keycard?? That's SO stone age!!"

No.

They sat in a room and talked about data mining.

They talked about tracking.

They talked about targeted marketing.

About developing a ticketing system that they could have absolute and complete control over, all from behind a curtain so that there was no way the public would ever know what was going on, and how they were manipulating things behind the scenes.

They talked about ways to monetize the idea. Indirectly, and I'm QUITE certain, directly as well. (It's coming)

They likely talked about tiers based on money spent by guests. Staying in a Deluxe? Well, you're going to pay rack rates, but you'll also get 2 extra fastpasses per person per day during your stay! (It's coming)

They talked about what they thought would be such an awesome, incredible system, competing resorts would pay for the use of the dozens of patents they would create (nevermind the fact that the other Disney resorts all across the planet don't even want it).

They talked about cruise ships. They studied research about how people end up spending more money when cash isn't involved. They wanted to exploit that.

They talked about Pavlov's theory. Ring the bell, dog drools, gets a treat. They applied the theory with the light up mickey's all over to elicit that positive connotation subconsciously. Then they put those same Mickeys at the cash registers. You think that was random?

Shall I go on?

This system wasn't NECESSARY. At all. Portions of it could have been done if it were deemed necessary to bring areas out of the "stone age"... Though I would argue very little was honestly NEEDED.

FP could have been altered and improved for a fraction of the cost of what they did. And Disney has admitted that. Want proof? Visit their latest park in Shanghai and see what they did. And that was well after MM+ was developed and running.

Guest wifi is absolutely not a necessity. Despite what millenials will argue.

Tens of thousands of doors for guest rooms worked swell with the keycard.

So did thousands of POS units.

This was all about squeezing more blood out of the turnip. And you and anyone else that doesn't believe that is naieve.

The hilarious part is how far off they were. How far off they were on budget... On upkeep... On the expected response from guests... On the expected demand from other resorts (both Disney and non)... And on countless other expected measurables.

If you think just Millennials expect wifi for free you have another thing coming. Wifi is now an expectation by most people are restaurants, cafes, and big public spaces like theme parks.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

If you think just Millennials expect wifi for free you have another thing coming. Wifi is now an expectation by most people are restaurants, cafes, and big public spaces like theme parks.

It's not NECESSARY. That's my point. Argue that you want it or expect it or whatever you like... But it wasn't necessary to the experience until the abomination of MM+ was implemented.

 

[larryz]

The fastpass portion of MM+ was a miniscule portion of the cost of the entire project. The rest was infrastructure related which literally brought much of the resort out of the stone age. Tens of thousands of rooms, thousands of POS systems, new network backbones throughout the entire property (much of which was still using phonelines). Then of course there was the software, hardware, and automation upgrades on the back end which will save hundreds of millions in labor hours.

But yes, lets distill the largest infrastructure investment ever made by a theme park operator anywhere down to electronic fastpass. Sure sounds ridiculous when you frame it that way especially if people take such an idiotic inference at face value.

I'm pretty sure the notion of MM+ being a colossal waste of money is simply bitterness over Disney's lack of investment elsewhere around the resort. But it wasn't a bad investment, much of the upgrades were correcting mistakes of deferred money saving stuff that was killing effeciency around the whole resort. Anyone with basic knowledge of the actual MM+ project knows how desperately needed most of the upgrades were and they're certainly aware the the investment will pay dividends in the long run.

I still find it baffling that MM+ didn't cost twice as much, given the scope and length of the project. Especially when you compare it to the costs of stuff like Pandora or Carsland.

Hence my use of the word "system." And since the MagicBand™ is the most visible part of that system, why not use it to ridicule the idiotic use of 2 billion dollars?

 

[Disney Analyst]

It's not NECESSARY. That's my point. Argue that you want it or expect it or whatever you like... But it wasn't necessary to the experience until the abomination of MM+ was implemented.

I would argue that even without MM+ people would expect Wifi, and in the end if guest expect it, it becomes necessary. We're in the people please buisness.

Also, I love MM+ so that that as it will. As someone who worked at MK during the slow transition period, to coming back for a visit a year later with it fully in place... Love love love it.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

I would argue that even without MM+ people would expect Wifi, and in the end if guest expect it, it becomes necessary. We're in the people please buisness.

Also, I love MM+ so that that as it will. As someone who worked at MK during the slow transition period, to coming back for a visit a year later with it fully in place... Love love love it.

I would have never guessed.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

There is WIFI in Shanghai despite not using MM+. Tokyo is still in the Medival era and does not have WIFI.

I was referring to their FP system. Not wifi. That has nothing to do with it.

 

[Bocabear]

It is great if you want to plan every move you make on vacation 6 months in advance...If you like to just have a leisurely vacation it is terrible and you will find yourself shut out of most attractions without waiting crazy amounts of time in standbvy lines...Even rides that NEVER had long lines in the past now have hour plus waits on standby... You can almost forget beaing able to have a sit down meal if not booked months in advance... I don't necessarily think this has been great for anyone but Disney who is reaping the benefits of full restaurants, packed parks, and booked up hotels...
Why then with revenue on the rise, capacity at max are we still getting the budget-conscious park additions? A Pandora missing it's Signature E ticket attraction, Totally Lame Toy Storyland Expansion, A Star Wars addition to the park with only 2 attractions...They can do better...and should

 

[ChrisM]

Staying in a Deluxe? Well, you're going to pay rack rates, but you'll also get 2 extra fastpasses per person per day during your stay! (It's coming)

It's not coming fast enough, in my opinion.

 

[DisneyJoe]

They likely talked about tiers based on money spent by guests. Staying in a Deluxe? Well, you're going to pay rack rates, but you'll also get 2 extra fastpasses per person per day during your stay! (It's coming)

Yes, eventually. It was mentioned in the FP patent filed in 1999.

 

[Disney Analyst]

It is great if you want to plan every move you make on vacation 6 months in advance...If you like to just have a leisurely vacation it is terrible and you will find yourself shut out of most attractions without waiting crazy amounts of time in standbvy lines...Even rides that NEVER had long lines in the past now have hour plus waits on standby... You can almost forget beaing able to have a sit down meal if not booked months in advance... I don't necessarily think this has been great for anyone but Disney who is reaping the benefits of full restaurants, packed parks, and booked up hotels...
Why then with revenue on the rise, capacity at max are we still getting the budget-conscious park additions? A Pandora missing it's Signature E ticket attraction, Totally Lame Toy Storyland Expansion, A Star Wars addition to the park with only 2 attractions...They can do better...and should

You know... now things may have changed since 2014, but I came, was signed in by my CM friend, we went and booked FP's in the morning each day as we got in the park, and always found a good selection of rides to book. We'd book them all close together and then just start booking singles and always managed to get a big tier attraction by the afternoon. FP are constantly opening up I found. Far better a system then running all around the park trying to get Fastpasses.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

It's not coming fast enough, in my opinion.

Paying rack rate for a Deluxe level Disney resort would never be okay.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

You know... now things may have changed since 2014, but I came, was signed in by my CM friend, we went and booked FP's in the morning each day as we got in the park, and always found a good selection of rides to book. We'd book them all close together and then just start booking singles and always managed to get a big tier attraction by the afternoon. FP are constantly opening up I found. Far better a system then running all around the park trying to get Fastpasses.

Again... Shanghai.