Disney Insists on Train Stop

[JLW11Hi]

Re: FLORIDA: The Soap Opera--Continues

Originally posted by objr

The fact is without WDW, Orlando would just be another city in Florida, without perhaps a Universal and a Sea World. I don't say "lets go to Orlando"...I say "lets go to Disney". But hey thats just my opinion. :lookaroun :wave:

Well, you have to remember that Orlando was a town before Disney "took over". I can see a lot of natives being annoyed with Disney because of this...I mean, I wouldn't like a giant resort built next door to me....well, actually, I probably would, but many others wouldn't, and even I would see the negetive impact it would have on the surrounding area. With all the tourist traps and cheesy stores poping up everywhere, not being able to go the bank without seeing signs that say "buy Diznee toys here!" (incorrect spelling intended ) or seeing families of tourists and vacationers who somehow managed to stumble upon my side of town.

The obvious thing I supposed would be to say "well, if it gets that bad, then move", but as many generations of my and local families have been here its kinda hard to do....it gets kinda personal.

Still, they shouldn't hate Disney for this, I mean, they had to set the place up somewhere...some small town had to get it, but I wouldn;t like to see the burdons of the tourist attraction being laid on the local residents, ya know? Well, that's what I think anyway .

 

[MFLetou]

Ridership/taxes

Impact studies have been done which show that Disney alone will generate far more riders than everything else combined--at least 4 times as many, I believe. Therefore, from a simple economic standpoint, it might not be economically viable to build anything OTHER than a Disney only train because ridership won't be there for it at a cost-effective basis.

Remember, without Disney there is no tourism in Orlando. The same cannot be said for Universal or any other park. Disney made Orlando a destination, and has made the state of Florida literally BILLIONS of dollars in revenue, not to mention the impact on the economy in the state of Florida. I think this is Disney saying its time for the state to give something back!

 

[MFLetou]

Joho and PanDuck

PanDuck
That oil comment is one of the STUPIDEST things I've ever read. Hurts his family's interest in the oil business? First of all the Bushes don't even HAVE interests in the oil business anymore, they divested when they took public second. Second, do you really think that a high speed train is really going to depress traffic that much that fuel consumption will go down enough to have any sort of statistically significant impact on oil prices??? That's utterly ridiculous.

You remind me of the people who think we just fought a war in Iraq over oil, never mind the fact that if cost the US government WAY more to liberate Iraq than we'll ever see in oil money (not to menion the fact that the US will never even see any Iraqi oil money since it will stay with the people of Iraq.

JoHo-
Apparently you have to live in Florida your whole life to be a Floridian now? Jeb Bush moved to Florida in 1981 (that's 23 years ago) and married a Floridian. His home is Florida, and the people of Florida like him even if you don't, that's why he just won a landside victory. I didn't realize "devious plans" get you nearly 60% of the vote.

 

[niteobsrvr]

Re: Joho and PanDuck

Originally posted by MFLetou
PanDuck
That oil comment is one of the STUPIDEST things I've ever read. Hurts his family's interest in the oil business? First of all the Bushes don't even HAVE interests in the oil business anymore, they divested when they took public second. Second, do you really think that a high speed train is really going to depress traffic that much that fuel consumption will go down enough to have any sort of statistically significant impact on oil prices??? That's utterly ridiculous.

You remind me of the people who think we just fought a war in Iraq over oil, never mind the fact that if cost the US government WAY more to liberate Iraq than we'll ever see in oil money (not to menion the fact that the US will never even see any Iraqi oil money since it will stay with the people of Iraq.

JoHo-
Apparently you have to live in Florida your whole life to be a Floridian now? Jeb Bush moved to Florida in 1981 (that's 23 years ago) and married a Floridian. His home is Florida, and the people of Florida like him even if you don't, that's why he just won a landside victory. I didn't realize "devious plans" get you nearly 60% of the vote.

I my intent is not to slam anyone but I would like to throw out one comment. Its just not as simple as any one person's opinion when looking at world events in the last 3 years. Sometimes you have to read between the lines and see what happens indirectly to truly understand political landscape.

In the mean time, we should really try to keep this thread on topic. I think there is some very important discussion that could take place regarding corporate/government relationships. I find it interesting to see how a project voted for by the citizens of Florida is not being controlled by not by common sense and economics but political and corporate posturing.

 

[Timekeeper]

high speed thingamagig

- If Disney wants a private rail, they can build (and pay for) a private rail.
- The issue is public interest, not private interest. Unless Disney can prove that 100% of rail passengers are using it strictly for transportation to and from WDW, then they cannot claim 100% of the traffic and control over the rail.
- Florida voters never voted in agreement of a rail that only serves the interests of WDW. If that is what Disney desires, let them present that "WDW-specific" amendment at the next voting session.
- Disney has previously tried to "strong arm" negotiations that resulted in a significant loss to the Disney company - claiming that the loss was to the "other party" and not Disney. (Of course, Disney can never lose in the eyes of the public, right?)

- Florida voters also voted on a pig amendment. Now pig farmers must change their facilities to accomodate pigs with individual, open areas that the pig can fully turn around in, because heaven forbid the pig (which is being raised for a "special purpose") is not able to turn full circle in his enclosement. Enough said.:brick:

Tk

 

[jmarc63]

Originally posted by CO-CFI
I was under the impression that one of the big reasons the monorail has not been expanded (besides the high cost) was that the land was a marsh area and the beams kept sinking into the ground. Now I am not an engineer, but won't the high speed train have the same problem? Or will it not be elevated? Just wondering.

you bring up a good point, weather it be Monorail, Light rail, People Mover, or other conveyance that is supported by a pylon with footing support would have the same conditions to build on.

The ground may be unsuitable for the footings for the pylons for a new beamways, But if the current system has/d pylons that were sinking that would cause serous problem for the beams since except for the expansion joints thruout the system the rest of the beams are married as a single unit to the pylons and about 90 % of the beams have a center pylon with a steel to support both directions. so If the current system is sinking that could be a serious situation for disney to deal with, unless there going out under the cover of darkness and shoring the foundations. based on the talk that parts of the system are sinking is either over exagerated and may be based an incompleate information and mis interpeted.

 

[jmarc63]

Originally posted by prberk
One thing that everyone needs to KEEP in mind is the difference between high-speed rail and light rail (or any other system). High-speed rail (which is what the voters apparently approved to be built) is, in fact, high-speed and is NOT supposed to be for local use and frequent stops. It is a completely different design. It should really only stop after a significant travel distance (like between cities), then riders exit or transfer to local transportation (such as light rail, monorail, or traditional train).

This seems to support Disney's one-stop suggestion (whether or not that one stop is at Disney). Even Disney or I-Drive (or Universal) is really too close for a normal stop along high-speed rail (if the point of origin is the airport), but the high volume of visitors headed to the same hub or place would be a compelling argument for a stop in the area. Other local traffic should take over from there.

anouther thing to keep in mind is the rolling stock for light rail is not as heavy as Highspeed rail, so the foundations dont have to support as much weight for the track bed as high speed rail does. since the train is designed to go fast there needs to be a heavier foundation for the rail bed and would encounter that in the area,

on a side note I was under the impression that the canals were designed to drain the area??

 

[jmarc63]

Originally posted by prberk
One thing that everyone needs to KEEP in mind is the difference between high-speed rail and light rail (or any other system). High-speed rail (which is what the voters apparently approved to be built) is, in fact, high-speed and is NOT supposed to be for local use and frequent stops. It is a completely different design. It should really only stop after a significant travel distance (like between cities), then riders exit or transfer to local transportation (such as light rail, monorail, or traditional train).

This seems to support Disney's one-stop suggestion (whether or not that one stop is at Disney). Even Disney or I-Drive (or Universal) is really too close for a normal stop along high-speed rail (if the point of origin is the airport), but the high volume of visitors headed to the same hub or place would be a compelling argument for a stop in the area. Other local traffic should take over from there.

another thing to keep in mind is the rolling stock for light rail is not as heavy as Highspeed rail, so the foundations dont have to support as much weight for the track bed as high speed rail does. since the train is designed to go fast there needs to be a heavier foundation for the rail bed and would encounter that in the area,

on a side note I was under the impression that the canals were designed to drain the area??

 

[RogueHabit]

Re: high speed thingamagig

Originally posted by Timekeeper
- If Disney wants a private rail, they can build (and pay for) a private rail.
- The issue is public interest, not private interest. Unless Disney can prove that 100% of rail passengers are using it strictly for transportation to and from WDW, then they cannot claim 100% of the traffic and control over the rail.

As I read it Disney are saying that they will only allow a stop on their property if it is the only one, or the first one (not quite sure about that). They are quite within their rights to say this, however they may well be cutting their nose to spite their face in taking such a stance.

Originally posted by Timekeeper
- Florida voters never voted in agreement of a rail that only serves the interests of WDW. If that is what Disney desires, let them present that "WDW-specific" amendment at the next voting session.

Agreed.

Overall

It does have to be said, and I think it already has been, that Disney have brought a whole load of benefits to the Orlando area, but with them they have also brought nbegatives as well.

It's a very difficult things to debate when you're someone like me who visits the area 2 weeks a year and doesn't live there.

 

[NakedMickey]

Disney is being a little unfair here. The reason everyone here in Florida wanted a high speed train was for people who had to commute to and from Downtown Orlando, to give them another choice instead of putting another car on highly congested Interstate 4.

From what I've read, this was never intented for a theme park, so that they could make sure that they're guests never step foot on anyone's property. This is another reason why some Floridians have such bad opinions about Disney. Using tax dollars to further a theme parks attendance is a little unjust. And even though they say they'll pay for it, believe me that the tax payers are going to end up putting some of their money in to.

 

[RogueHabit]

I couldn't agree more. It is all rather sad.

 

[blm07]

Yeah I have to say that tourists get annoying. For instance: I said to my friend "Florida rules!" but he said "yeah if it wasnt for all the tourists and people". I'm starting to agree, there is way too many people in Florida as it is. I remember empty fields being turned into apartments a whole lot, its getting crazy here.

 

[NakedMickey]

Yeah, I've been living here in sunny Orlando, Florida for 17 years now and it's amazing how quickly things change and how much it's grown. The roads and the highways need some help though, this city is getting too congested. I went to school here in Florida and it wasn't the greatest experience ever. I went to a high school that was built for 1200 kids and by the time I graduated we had almost 5000. Although it's nice to live in Florida sometimes it can be the most unhappiest place on Earth.

 

[EvilMortimer]

Guys, it seems that there is no more room for debate on this subject. If the Disney route is going to generate mega bucks more then the beeline route, then you can guess which way the construction company is going to go, since they get to choose the route and they get to choose the stops and they get their money from riders for the first 10 or so years. It's common sense, and that is what will happen. It's all about money. Disney is about money. Plus this will generate even more money for local state companys for concrete since when Disney get's their stop, guess what it will be connected with. And it's not going to be by bus. And if Disney will be including tickets for the rail system, that's like money up front for the builder of the rail. It makes a lot of sense. And one last thing. Monorail is a type of High Speed rail. It's the least costly. And the Disney Pylons are not sinking. Where did you ever hear that? :lol: Okay, end of rant.

 

[niteobsrvr]

Originally posted by NakedMickey
Disney is being a little unfair here. The reason everyone here in Florida wanted a high speed train was for people who had to commute to and from Downtown Orlando, to give them another choice instead of putting another car on highly congested Interstate 4.

From what I've read, this was never intented for a theme park, so that they could make sure that they're guests never step foot on anyone's property. This is another reason why some Floridians have such bad opinions about Disney. Using tax dollars to further a theme parks attendance is a little unjust. And even though they say they'll pay for it, believe me that the tax payers are going to end up putting some of their money in to.

You are right, the train was never intended to be a theme park shuttle. However, once the amendment was passed and the commissions started doing their studies, they soon realized that without the Disney riders the highspeed line wouldn't be financially viable without serious subsidies form the state and local governments.

The people of FLorida have stuck the Government with the very unfortunate problem of madated highspeed rail with no funding. The amendment was severely short-sighted in that respect. So the government chose to do what it thought was most economically feasible which is build the first leg from Orlando to Tampa. They did this for two reasons. One they new there was a steady supply of riders for that leg especially if you add in the DIsney guests. Two, it helps them alleviate a traffic congestin problem on I-4 in an area that should have been 3 lanes in each direction a long time ago and most likely will need 4 lanes in each direction in the near future. Anyone who has ever been on I-4 in that are when there was a major accident can attest to the problems it causes.

If it were up to me, I would encourage Orange County, Osceola County, and all the affected municipalties to build in conjunction with Disney and the I-drive area, a train system that simply ran from the airport to those areas simply to serve the tourist market. This would be somwhat similar to what Las Vegas is doing with their Monorail line. Unfortunately, none of these groups can really get along for more than a couple of minutes before it turns into a shouting matched based on protecting their own interests. It has not yet been mentioned how any of this highspeed business is going to benefit tourists and alleviate the congestion on the major arteries.

 

[NakedMickey]

Originally posted by niteobsrvr
You are right, the train was never intended to be a theme park shuttle. However, once the amendment was passed and the commissions started doing their studies, they soon realized that without the Disney riders the highspeed line wouldn't be financially viable without serious subsidies form the state and local governments.

The people of FLorida have stuck the Government with the very unfortunate problem of madated highspeed rail with no funding. The amendment was severely short-sighted in that respect. So the government chose to do what it thought was most economically feasible which is build the first leg from Orlando to Tampa. They did this for two reasons. One they new there was a steady supply of riders for that leg especially if you add in the DIsney guests. Two, it helps them alleviate a traffic congestin problem on I-4 in an area that should have been 3 lanes in each direction a long time ago and most likely will need 4 lanes in each direction in the near future. Anyone who has ever been on I-4 in that are when there was a major accident can attest to the problems it causes.

If it were up to me, I would encourage Orange County, Osceola County, and all the affected municipalties to build in conjunction with Disney and the I-drive area, a train system that simply ran from the airport to those areas simply to serve the tourist market. This would be somwhat similar to what Las Vegas is doing with their Monorail line. Unfortunately, none of these groups can really get along for more than a couple of minutes before it turns into a shouting matched based on protecting their own interests. It has not yet been mentioned how any of this highspeed business is going to benefit tourists and alleviate the congestion on the major arteries.

Yeah...I agree. Most of the people in Florida only see the good that can come from certain things and never take the time to research and how it will affect them. The same thing happened with the one amendment to reduce class size. As much as it is a good idea, the state of Florida right now does not have the resources to make this a reality. Because of this our taxes have gone up and the government is left with the task of hiring dozens of teachers and must find ways of reducing class sizes of 40 down to about 20.

I myself was always kind of "so-so" about thel lightrail. I saw the pros and the cons. Maybe connecting Disney with I-drive property would help with congestion but also most the people who drive that road are locals and with amount of people that move to Florida everyday, the lightrail would not make a dent on the amount of congestion on I-4. At this point it seems it would be better and more beneficial to simply add the 4th lane, but it would definitely be more painstainking.

 

[MFLetou]

Well, it would seem that the bottom line is that there really isn't any money to do anything, so unless Disney or some private funding source comes up with it, its not going to happen. Same thing as the Florida classroom initiative, it was basically an unfunded mandate approved by the voters despite the fact that the Governor said all along there was no money for it (and I don't mean to get into THAT, just a comparison!)

I also don't mean to get too off topic, but I couldn't let a cheap shot like the oil one go unanswered. I'm not going to inject politics onto this board, but if someone else doesn I'm also not going to let them get away with it!

 

[Bagheera]

Personally, it just seems to me that each of the constitutional amendments mentioned in this thread show that Floridians have no idea what should and should not be part of a constitution and what should be law. Just because you have difficulty electing lawmakers that will pass the issues that you want them to doesn't mean that you screw with the whole concept of a constitution. What's next, a constitutional amendment to set the "official" price of a cup of coffee? C'mon, folks! THINK!

(Sorry for the off-topic rant, but I couldn't take it any more....)

 

[jmarc63]

Originally posted by MFLetou
Well, it would seem that the bottom line is that there really isn't any money to do anything, so unless Disney or some private funding source comes up with it, its not going to happen. Same thing as the Florida classroom initiative, it was basically an unfunded mandate approved by the voters despite the fact that the Governor said all along there was no money for it (and I don't mean to get into THAT, just a comparison!)

I also don't mean to get too off topic, but I couldn't let a cheap shot like the oil one go unanswered. I'm not going to inject politics onto this board, but if someone else doesn I'm also not going to let them get away with it!

I was under the impression that when the law was passed that mandated your funding be in place before you could propose that project for approval by the voters , So I find this a little interesting that they voted for it and have prelimnary plans for this and no funding, somethings not right there

 

[imagineersrock]

Originally posted by Bagheera
What's next, a constitutional amendment to set the "official" price of a cup of coffee? C'mon, folks! THINK!

.....ooooooooh he's a good one! we need more of these kinds of thinkers down here!!! just show me where to sign- 'cuz i vote yay!!!

-p.s. one thing though, this better be on those new electronic ballots, because you know how things go with those paper ones down here...

-i just want to add, i've never called anyone stupid just because of where they are from and truly hope you can do the same from now on,

thanks,
-alex