Disney crocs at Walmarts!

[DznyGrlSD]

Holy thread-drift....

Can't we all just get along? :shrug:

:sohappy::sohappy: For Disney themed knock-off-crocs

 

[Phonedave]

I cant back up any of my info with numbers. All I can go by is who I know at my store, and a few around me. Up here, Walmart is not this horrible place you speak of. Im sure it is gonna be greatly different in NH than in Georgia for instance. Just like in my town, the employees I work with are much different from the employees in the bigger cities. I dont feel like "cyber arguing" about this anymore. It's your opinion versus mine, and Im pretty sure neither will change.

Heh, thats funny, because the Wal*Mart I happen to avoid except when I don't want to make a 50 mile trip is in New Hampshire. In fact there are two of them up there I tend to avoid. One is quite new - a little over a year since it opened. Big 'ol box right in the middle of what used to be a nice little town.

-dave

 

[NadieMasK2]

Slappy, I've see what you describe first hand, and it's not pretty. There's an area of town that used to be quite nice, but when WM moved in, things went downhill, and fast. This was a huge shopping and dining corridor, with several high quality eating establishments.
All the good little shops closed and in moved the dollar stores. All decent restaurants got boarded up. Most have reopened as low-budget, unclean looking places and the whole area is a scary place to be. I avoid that area like the plague.

This really happens, folks. Not at every WM location, but at enough of them to make it a legitimate concern.

 

[slappy magoo]

I cant back up any of my info with numbers. All I can go by is who I know at my store, and a few around me. Up here, Walmart is not this horrible place you speak of. Im sure it is gonna be greatly different in NH than in Georgia for instance. Just like in my town, the employees I work with are much different from the employees in the bigger cities. I dont feel like "cyber arguing" about this anymore. It's your opinion versus mine, and Im pretty sure neither will change.

Again, it's kind of ironic that you can't take the time to back up YOUR assertions, yet you expect me to take the time to back up MY assertions. Footnotes for me, not for thee. :ROFLOL:

Anyway, as a WalMart employee, I'm sure you know of walmartwatch.com and wakeupwalmart.com. They already do much of the research you ask of me documenting each lawsuit, each police inquiry into unfair or unsafe workplace conditions, the hiring of illegal aliens, the poor pay, etc. Either one is a good one-stop shop. Again, I'm sure you've heard of them, though POSSIBLY from management telling you not to bother checking them out, they're only filled with slanderous libel and libelous slander about the trivial lawsuits WalMart is forced to fight...and fight on appeal...

If you're too tired to read, you can hear the confessions of a former WalMart exec here: http://www.walmartmovie.com/confessions/

This is fairly recent, the report of WalMart trying to coerce their employees to vote Republican as Democrats will unionize the stores and they'l all go out of business. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/01/wal-mart-warns-workers-of_n_116279.html

Why would unions mean WalMart stores would close? Because WalMart would close a store that unionizes http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0210-13.htm


Or at least, close the departments that try to unionize http://www.workinglife.org/wiki/Wal...Anti-Union+Retailer+to+Eat+Crow+(July+7,+2003)

And as for my main assertion? That many WalMart employees don't make enough to live above the poverty line? A Google search of "walmart" and "poverty line" gives you this:
http://stlouis.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stories/2006/05/15/daily29.html

And this: http://newsblaze.com/story/2006051708300100001.ew/topstory.html

Aaaand a paper written by Congressman George Miller: http://www.mindfully.org/Industry/2004/Wal-Mart-Labor-Record16feb04.htm

I'm sure this is all not quite enough to convince you, and again, I wouldn't be surprised if your management or corporate spokespersons are ready to debunk each and every point.



Before I go, I will offer one caveat to WalMart, they recently increased bonuses across the company, from 1.8b to 2b, with almost half of that going to hourly wages in the combined form of cash bonus and investments in the 401(k). And while it's a sorta generous gesture, the timing for treating employees better couldn't be better, what with EFCA being negotiated. Plus, this was part of a negotiation that settled a lot of lawsuits, from unfair wages, gender-based wage discrimination, unsafe working conditions (like locking employees in stores overnight so's they won't steal noth...I mean, "for their safety." :ROFLOL: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123750690840590261.html

wakeupwalmart also had a page about the bonuses: http://blog.wakeupwalmart.com/ufcw/2009/03/the_truth_about.html

Here's the money quote (badum bump)

A WakeUpWalmart.com analysis today found that if all of Walmart's American workers received a bonus, each person would receive around $666 on average.

However, calls from Walmart workers around the country reveal that many received far less than that average. Cynthia Murray, a full-time Walmart worker in Laurel, Maryland, reported that she got a bonus of $169.39. Another full-time associate in Wilton, New York, received $423.

Using Walmart's own figures, a full-time employee at 34 hours per week, making the average wage of $10.86 per hour, will earn $19,200.48 per year. The federal government’s definition of poverty for a family of four is $21,200.

And that's all I have.


Wait.

No it's not.

Here's a pdf file, copied and pasted, that explains more. Let me know how wrong all of this info is at your earliest convenience:




WAL-MART: LOW WAGES, ALWAYS

As working families struggle with rising oil prices and food shortages, a small number of people do not have a care
in the world. In fact, the top 200 wealthiest people in the world control more wealth than the bottom 4 billion.1
According to the Wall Street Journal, in the United States, “a recent study found that the top .01% or 14,000
American families hold 22.2% of wealth — the bottom 90%, or over 133 million families, just 4% of the nation's
wealth. Unfortunately, the latest wage numbers from the Labor Department do not show a change in this trend as
wages continue to spiral downward. “...Wages decreased 0.9 percent in June after adjusting for inflation, and were
down 2.4 percent over the last 12 months.” 2

The current contrast between the earnings of the 1.4 million U.S. Wal-Mart employees and the earnings of the
Walton family provide a striking example of the widening income gap in America. Since November, the Walton
family has made more than $20 billion on the rise in Wal-Mart’s stock price alone. Meanwhile, the “average” wage
for a Wal-Mart worker is in decline – failing to even keep pace with inflation. Despite numerous studies that show
Wal-Mart can raise wages without sacrificing its profit margins, the retail leader fails lead on wages.

WHAT ABOUT THE WALTON FAMILY?

The Walton family is now worth over $80 billion. With over 1.7 billion shares, or 43% of Wal-Mart stock, the
Walton family wields enormous control over the company. 3 Even by Walton standards, 2008 has been a good year
for the family. From November 2007 to June 2008, the stock prices rose by almost $17. This means the Walton
family made around $29 billion off the stock price increase alone! [Forbes World’s Billionaires list, 2008]

The Walton family could afford to raise wages. That same $29 billion could provide every Wal-Mart employee
with an $11 an hour pay increase for one year or raise the company’s minimum pay to $14 an hour for the next
three years. [Internal calculation with help from UC Berkeley Labor Center]

EXECUTIVE COMPENSATION OUT OF CONTROL?

Wal-Mart CEO H. Lee Scott is the highest paid retail executive. The value of Scott’s 2007 Compensation
Packet is around $31.6 million. H. Lee Scott's compensation package rose by roughly $2 million in value compared
to previous years. Three Wal-Mart executives are on the top ten list - with a combined compensation packet totaling
$59.8 million. [Women’s Wear Daily, 7/24/08]

The Wal-Mart wage gap widens. An average "full-time" employee at Wal-Mart would have to work roughly 1646
years in order to accumulate what the Wal-Mart CEO receives for one year. Furthermore, a Wal-Mart associate
would have to work 3114 years, to meet the annual compensation of the three highest paid Wal-Mart executives.
[Women’s Wear Daily, 7/24/08]

HOW BAD ARE WAL-MART'S WAGES?

Wal-Mart offers poverty level wages. Using Wal-Mart's figures, a “full-time” employee at 34 hours per week,
making the Wal-Mart average wage of $10.86 per hour, will earn $19,200.48 per year. The federal government’s
definition of poverty for a family of four in the contiguous United States is $21,200. [2008 Wal-Mart Employee
Handbook; 2008 HHS Poverty Guidelines]

Hourly Wages for Full-time Employees: Adjusted Wage in 2004 Dollars:
2004 $9.68 $9.68
2005 10.15 9.82
2006 10.40 9.74
2007 10.83 9.87
2008 10.86 9.55
Sources: Wal-Mart Economic Opportunities Fact Sheet; CPI Inflation calculator

Wal-Mart refuses to release a median wage. To defend its treatment of workers, Wal-Mart releases statistics on
its average hourly wage for full-time employees. However, Wal-Mart has never published its median wage -- a data
point that would give a clearer sense of what workers earn. Instead, the store uses misleading language that masks
the fact that hourly managers earn higher wages than hourly floor workers -- a fact that skews the "average" wage
of “store associates” -- and refuses to release wage levels for specific job functions. [Walmartfacts.com]

Most Wal-Mart Retail Jobs Pay Far Below the National Average Wage. Of Wal-Mart’s top retail jobs (Sales
Associate, Cashier, Team Leaders, Overnight Stocker) Wal-Mart typically pays 26-37% less than the national
average for the same jobs in the retail industry. [Brennan Center for Justice, Economic Policy Brief, No. 2, August
2005, http://walmartwatch.com/img/documents/brennan_center.pdf]

Study Shows Women Earn Less and Hold Fewer Senior Positions at Wal-Mart. In 2003, Dr. Richard Drogin,
Professor Emeritus from California State University, conducted a study on the wages of female employees at Wal-
Mart. Among his key findings were that: women hourly workers earn up to 37 cents less per hour than their male
counterparts; female managers earn nearly $5,000 less than male managers in yearly salary; women comprise 72
percent of Wal-Mart’s total workforce, but only 33 percent of its managers; and women comprise 92 percent of Wal-
Mart’s cashiers, but only 14 percent of Wal-Mart store managers. [Wal-Mart Class, Plaintiff’s Expert Dr. Richard
Drogin’s Statistical Report, http://www.walmartclass.com/staticdata/reports/r2.pdf; New York Times, 12/30/04]

FORTUNE 500 LIST

Wal-Mart tops Fortune 500 list – surpassing oil giant Exxon-Mobil once again. In FY 2008, Wal-Mart’s annual
revenue grew to $378 billion, placing the company at the top of the corporate heap. Since 2002, Wal-Mart topped
Fortune’s list in every year except 2006 when Exxon-Mobil reached the top slot “...because the world price of oil
had risen 50 percent” in that year. [Charles Fishman, “The Wal-Mart Effect,” 2006; Wal-Mart 2008 Annual Report;
Fortune, 5/8/08]

COSTCO WAGES – SETTING THE STANDARD

"I figured that if I was making something like 12 times more than the typical person working on the floor, that that
was a fair salary" – Costco CEO Jim Sinegal [ABC News, 8/2/06]

Higher wages means lower turnover rate. According to Costco CEO Jim Sinegal, “In my view, some of these
industries that pay minimum wage are constantly turning their people over. They spend more on turnover than they
would in paying the additional wages.” [Washington Post, 1/30/07]

Costco offers a higher average wage. In addition to a low turnover rate, Costco average wage is around $17 an
hour while Wal-Mart’s average was hovers below $11. Coincidently, Wal-Mart’s number represents the average
pay of the lowest paid employee at Costco. [Washington Post, 1/30/07]

Costco CEO Jim Sinegal’s annual salary is $350,000 plus bonuses. His salary is about double the salary of a
Costco warehouse manager and less than ten times the salary of a Costco cashier with three-and-a-half years on
the job. According to the New York Times, Mr. Sinegal turned down bonuses in 2001-2003: “I rejected my bonus
because we had a couple of years where we hadn’t performed up to our standards,” he said. “We were more
profitable than the year before, but we didn’t hit the standards we had set for ourselves, so we didn’t think we were
entitled.” [New York Times, 4/4/04; InsideWork, 4/14/05]








1
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/06132008/profile2.html
2
Bloomberg, 7/16/08; http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aYIklEM6BPhE&refer=home
3
http://finance.aol.com/company/wal-mart-stores-inc/wmt/nys/institutional-ownership

_________________________________

 

[alecshawn]

Again, it's kind of ironic that you can't take the time to back up YOUR assertions, yet you expect me to take the time to back up MY assertions. Footnotes for me, not for thee. :ROFLOL:

Anyway, as a WalMart employee, I'm sure you know of walmartwatch.com and wakeupwalmart.com. They already do much of the research you ask of me documenting each lawsuit, each police inquiry into unfair or unsafe workplace conditions, the hiring of illegal aliens, the poor pay, etc. Either one is a good one-stop shop. Again, I'm sure you've heard of them, though POSSIBLY from management telling you not to bother checking them out, they're only filled with slanderous libel and libelous slander about the trivial lawsuits WalMart is forced to fight...and fight on appeal...

If you're too tired to read, you can hear the confessions of a former WalMart exec here: http://www.walmartmovie.com/confessions/

This is fairly recent, the report of WalMart trying to coerce their employees to vote Republican as Democrats will unionize the stores and they'l all go out of business. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/01/wal-mart-warns-workers-of_n_116279.html

Why would unions mean WalMart stores would close? Because WalMart would close a store that unionizes http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0210-13.htm


Or at least, close the departments that try to unionize http://www.workinglife.org/wiki/Wal...Anti-Union+Retailer+to+Eat+Crow+(July+7,+2003)

And as for my main assertion? That many WalMart employees don't make enough to live above the poverty line? A Google search of "walmart" and "poverty line" gives you this:
http://stlouis.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stories/2006/05/15/daily29.html

And this: http://newsblaze.com/story/2006051708300100001.ew/topstory.html

Aaaand a paper written by Congressman George Miller: http://www.mindfully.org/Industry/2004/Wal-Mart-Labor-Record16feb04.htm

I'm sure this is all not quite enough to convince you, and again, I wouldn't be surprised if your management or corporate spokespersons are ready to debunk each and every point.



Before I go, I will offer one caveat to WalMart, they recently increased bonuses across the company, from 1.8b to 2b, with almost half of that going to hourly wages in the combined form of cash bonus and investments in the 401(k). And while it's a sorta generous gesture, the timing for treating employees better couldn't be better, what with EFCA being negotiated. Plus, this was part of a negotiation that settled a lot of lawsuits, from unfair wages, gender-based wage discrimination, unsafe working conditions (like locking employees in stores overnight so's they won't steal noth...I mean, "for their safety." :ROFLOL: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123750690840590261.html

wakeupwalmart also had a page about the bonuses: http://blog.wakeupwalmart.com/ufcw/2009/03/the_truth_about.html

Here's the money quote (badum bump)

A WakeUpWalmart.com analysis today found that if all of Walmart's American workers received a bonus, each person would receive around $666 on average.

However, calls from Walmart workers around the country reveal that many received far less than that average. Cynthia Murray, a full-time Walmart worker in Laurel, Maryland, reported that she got a bonus of $169.39. Another full-time associate in Wilton, New York, received $423.

Using Walmart's own figures, a full-time employee at 34 hours per week, making the average wage of $10.86 per hour, will earn $19,200.48 per year. The federal government’s definition of poverty for a family of four is $21,200.

And that's all I have.


Wait.

No it's not.

Here's a pdf file, copied and pasted, that explains more. Let me know how wrong all of this info is at your earliest convenience:




WAL-MART: LOW WAGES, ALWAYS

As working families struggle with rising oil prices and food shortages, a small number of people do not have a care
in the world. In fact, the top 200 wealthiest people in the world control more wealth than the bottom 4 billion.1
According to the Wall Street Journal, in the United States, “a recent study found that the top .01% or 14,000
American families hold 22.2% of wealth — the bottom 90%, or over 133 million families, just 4% of the nation's
wealth. Unfortunately, the latest wage numbers from the Labor Department do not show a change in this trend as
wages continue to spiral downward. “...Wages decreased 0.9 percent in June after adjusting for inflation, and were
down 2.4 percent over the last 12 months.” 2

The current contrast between the earnings of the 1.4 million U.S. Wal-Mart employees and the earnings of the
Walton family provide a striking example of the widening income gap in America. Since November, the Walton
family has made more than $20 billion on the rise in Wal-Mart’s stock price alone. Meanwhile, the “average” wage
for a Wal-Mart worker is in decline – failing to even keep pace with inflation. Despite numerous studies that show
Wal-Mart can raise wages without sacrificing its profit margins, the retail leader fails lead on wages.

WHAT ABOUT THE WALTON FAMILY?

The Walton family is now worth over $80 billion. With over 1.7 billion shares, or 43% of Wal-Mart stock, the
Walton family wields enormous control over the company. 3 Even by Walton standards, 2008 has been a good year
for the family. From November 2007 to June 2008, the stock prices rose by almost $17. This means the Walton
family made around $29 billion off the stock price increase alone! [Forbes World’s Billionaires list, 2008]

The Walton family could afford to raise wages. That same $29 billion could provide every Wal-Mart employee
with an $11 an hour pay increase for one year or raise the company’s minimum pay to $14 an hour for the next
three years. [Internal calculation with help from UC Berkeley Labor Center]

EXECUTIVE COMPENSATION OUT OF CONTROL?

Wal-Mart CEO H. Lee Scott is the highest paid retail executive. The value of Scott’s 2007 Compensation
Packet is around $31.6 million. H. Lee Scott's compensation package rose by roughly $2 million in value compared
to previous years. Three Wal-Mart executives are on the top ten list - with a combined compensation packet totaling
$59.8 million. [Women’s Wear Daily, 7/24/08]

The Wal-Mart wage gap widens. An average "full-time" employee at Wal-Mart would have to work roughly 1646
years in order to accumulate what the Wal-Mart CEO receives for one year. Furthermore, a Wal-Mart associate
would have to work 3114 years, to meet the annual compensation of the three highest paid Wal-Mart executives.
[Women’s Wear Daily, 7/24/08]

HOW BAD ARE WAL-MART'S WAGES?

Wal-Mart offers poverty level wages. Using Wal-Mart's figures, a “full-time” employee at 34 hours per week,
making the Wal-Mart average wage of $10.86 per hour, will earn $19,200.48 per year. The federal government’s
definition of poverty for a family of four in the contiguous United States is $21,200. [2008 Wal-Mart Employee
Handbook; 2008 HHS Poverty Guidelines]

Hourly Wages for Full-time Employees: Adjusted Wage in 2004 Dollars:
2004 $9.68 $9.68
2005 10.15 9.82
2006 10.40 9.74
2007 10.83 9.87
2008 10.86 9.55
Sources: Wal-Mart Economic Opportunities Fact Sheet; CPI Inflation calculator

Wal-Mart refuses to release a median wage. To defend its treatment of workers, Wal-Mart releases statistics on
its average hourly wage for full-time employees. However, Wal-Mart has never published its median wage -- a data
point that would give a clearer sense of what workers earn. Instead, the store uses misleading language that masks
the fact that hourly managers earn higher wages than hourly floor workers -- a fact that skews the "average" wage
of “store associates” -- and refuses to release wage levels for specific job functions. [Walmartfacts.com]

Most Wal-Mart Retail Jobs Pay Far Below the National Average Wage. Of Wal-Mart’s top retail jobs (Sales
Associate, Cashier, Team Leaders, Overnight Stocker) Wal-Mart typically pays 26-37% less than the national
average for the same jobs in the retail industry. [Brennan Center for Justice, Economic Policy Brief, No. 2, August
2005, http://walmartwatch.com/img/documents/brennan_center.pdf]

Study Shows Women Earn Less and Hold Fewer Senior Positions at Wal-Mart. In 2003, Dr. Richard Drogin,
Professor Emeritus from California State University, conducted a study on the wages of female employees at Wal-
Mart. Among his key findings were that: women hourly workers earn up to 37 cents less per hour than their male
counterparts; female managers earn nearly $5,000 less than male managers in yearly salary; women comprise 72
percent of Wal-Mart’s total workforce, but only 33 percent of its managers; and women comprise 92 percent of Wal-
Mart’s cashiers, but only 14 percent of Wal-Mart store managers. [Wal-Mart Class, Plaintiff’s Expert Dr. Richard
Drogin’s Statistical Report, http://www.walmartclass.com/staticdata/reports/r2.pdf; New York Times, 12/30/04]

FORTUNE 500 LIST

Wal-Mart tops Fortune 500 list – surpassing oil giant Exxon-Mobil once again. In FY 2008, Wal-Mart’s annual
revenue grew to $378 billion, placing the company at the top of the corporate heap. Since 2002, Wal-Mart topped
Fortune’s list in every year except 2006 when Exxon-Mobil reached the top slot “...because the world price of oil
had risen 50 percent” in that year. [Charles Fishman, “The Wal-Mart Effect,” 2006; Wal-Mart 2008 Annual Report;
Fortune, 5/8/08]

COSTCO WAGES – SETTING THE STANDARD

"I figured that if I was making something like 12 times more than the typical person working on the floor, that that
was a fair salary" – Costco CEO Jim Sinegal [ABC News, 8/2/06]

Higher wages means lower turnover rate. According to Costco CEO Jim Sinegal, “In my view, some of these
industries that pay minimum wage are constantly turning their people over. They spend more on turnover than they
would in paying the additional wages.” [Washington Post, 1/30/07]

Costco offers a higher average wage. In addition to a low turnover rate, Costco average wage is around $17 an
hour while Wal-Mart’s average was hovers below $11. Coincidently, Wal-Mart’s number represents the average
pay of the lowest paid employee at Costco. [Washington Post, 1/30/07]

Costco CEO Jim Sinegal’s annual salary is $350,000 plus bonuses. His salary is about double the salary of a
Costco warehouse manager and less than ten times the salary of a Costco cashier with three-and-a-half years on
the job. According to the New York Times, Mr. Sinegal turned down bonuses in 2001-2003: “I rejected my bonus
because we had a couple of years where we hadn’t performed up to our standards,” he said. “We were more
profitable than the year before, but we didn’t hit the standards we had set for ourselves, so we didn’t think we were
entitled.” [New York Times, 4/4/04; InsideWork, 4/14/05]








1
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/06132008/profile2.html
2
Bloomberg, 7/16/08; http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aYIklEM6BPhE&refer=home
3
http://finance.aol.com/company/wal-mart-stores-inc/wmt/nys/institutional-ownership

_________________________________

:snore:
Pure drivel.
Bottom line: WalMart saves us money. Period.
Thats a good thing.
Save money, live better. I love the new slogan, its true.
We just returned from a trip to walmart. I love Capitalism.
And who cares how much a walmart "ceo" makes-
That has no impact on me. It has no bearing on anything. If Costco want to pay their boss less, good for them. But who really cares?
I have a peachy pension as a firefighter, should i feel guilty for that? NOPE!
Folks need to worry less about how much other people make and worry more about their own ship.
Anyways, i gotta go back to walmart tomorrow, i forgot my razors.

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

:snore:
Pure drivel.
Bottom line: WalMart saves us money. Period.
Thats a good thing.
Save money, live better. I love the new slogan, its true.
We just returned from a trip to walmart. I love Capitalism.
And who cares how much a walmart "ceo" makes-
That has no impact on me. It has no bearing on anything. If Costco want to pay their boss less, good for them. But who really cares?
I have a peachy pension as a firefighter, should i feel guilty for that? NOPE!
Folks need to worry less about how much other people make and worry more about their own ship.
Anyways, i gotta go back to walmart tomorrow, i forgot my razors.

Gotta love Walmart, its the patriotic thing to do. Im glad you love capitalism, you sure are living the dream. Perhaps being paid from the public purse you dont need to understand the dynamics of wages in the private sector. Im pleased you enjoy Walmart because when they have their way its all thats on offer. Funny though that they manage to turn a profit and be second placed store chain in the UK despite having to put up with all those nasty un American employment laws and health and safety practices and pay in accordance with UK law. :shrug: whod have thunk it.

Actually I get my razors from Costco, a fraction of what Walmart charges.

 

[slappy magoo]

Gotta love Walmart, its the patriotic thing to do. Im glad you love capitalism, you sure are living the dream. Perhaps being paid from the public purse you dont need to understand the dynamics of wages in the private sector. Im pleased you enjoy Walmart because when they have their way its all thats on offer. Funny though that they manage to turn a profit and be second placed store chain in the UK despite having to put up with all those nasty un American employment laws and health and safety practices and pay in accordance with UK law. :shrug: whod have thunk it.

Actually I get my razors from Costco, a fraction of what Walmart charges.

Pumbas, do yourself a favor, don't take anything this kid says at face value. He's that particular subbreed of troll for whom acting stupid and obnoxious isn't enough, he has to also act insufferably cheery. The hat trick of teh suck.

He's going to see your screed, and think "I win," (though he would've taken more glee had I taken the bait since he quoted me). He'll jump on his bed and giggle and giggle and giggle before making out with his Jonas Brothers poster, because he has JUST THAT MUCH power over a stranger on the internet.

Not a fomer serviceman.
Not a firefighter.
Not a grownup.

Just another Shiny Happy Starryeyed Troll...or, S.H.*.T., if you will.

Let it go, because he's here until he gets bored. He's not being personally insulting or threatening, therefore he's breaking no netiquette forum rules.

Although I'll be happier when he discovers girls, that might take up some more of his time.

 

[kapeman]

I'm still trying to get over the OP calling it "Walmarts".

 

[Phonedave]

Gotta love Walmart, its the patriotic thing to do. Im glad you love capitalism, you sure are living the dream. Perhaps being paid from the public purse you dont need to understand the dynamics of wages in the private sector. Im pleased you enjoy Walmart because when they have their way its all thats on offer. Funny though that they manage to turn a profit and be second placed store chain in the UK despite having to put up with all those nasty un American employment laws and health and safety practices and pay in accordance with UK law. :shrug: whod have thunk it.

Actually I get my razors from Costco, a fraction of what Walmart charges.

And as somone who lives off the public teat, he should be worried.

WalMart comes into a town. Mom & Pop stores close, people who work at WalMart cannot afford to to live in higher priced housing. Rent prices drop, housing values drop, and RATEABLES go down. That means taxes are harder to come by, that means they start looking for places to cut. Eventualy the public eye turns to the fire dept. It's happening around here. People are looking at the paid squads and saying "These guys make $80k a year, have a 'peachy pension', work 24 hours on and 72 off, and my taxes are going up and we can't afford to have sports at public schools" They they see the "I got mine" attitude of people like our friend here and the axe comes down. Funny thing is, there is not much work for an out of work firefighter. Maybe WalMart will hire you.

(I also happen to have a number of paid and volley firefighters (and ex-FF) in my family - ranging from entry level Firefighter to Deputy Cheif of a paid squad - many of them are worried)

-dave

 

[alecshawn]

Pumbas, do yourself a favor, don't take anything this kid says at face value. He's that particular subbreed of troll for whom acting stupid and obnoxious isn't enough, he has to also act insufferably cheery. The hat trick of teh suck.

He's going to see your screed, and think "I win," (though he would've taken more glee had I taken the bait since he quoted me). He'll jump on his bed and giggle and giggle and giggle before making out with his Jonas Brothers poster, because he has JUST THAT MUCH power over a stranger on the internet.

Not a fomer serviceman.
Not a firefighter.
Not a grownup.

Just another Shiny Happy Starryeyed Troll...or, S.H.*.T., if you will.

Let it go, because he's here until he gets bored. He's not being personally insulting or threatening, therefore he's breaking no netiquette forum rules.

Although I'll be happier when he discovers girls, that might take up some more of his time.

I really want to thank you for your kind and intellectual words.
I do appreciate it. Its important to be professional in all debates, if not, one losses that debate. I do notice an isssue though-
Lets see, if one disagrees with some of you, one is discredited and though to have "invented yourself" or called a troll.
Here is a newsflash: Folks DO have an opinion and we all musnt agree with you.
1. Im an 8 year verteran of the USAF (1 year in kuwait/Iraq)
2. Been PROFESSIONAL Firefighter/NREMT-P for almost 16 years now, in Cincinnati, Oh
Sadly, i dont make 80k per year, good for the guys that do though, they EARN it. We make around 65k with a bit of O.T. We also work 24 on 48 off. We even got a 4.3% raise this year...Oh, the horror of it!
As for the "security" of fire or police careers....If one has the least bit of seniority, you are 99.9% safe. (and being "civil service" tested positions...its kinda like having tenure as a teacher. Even small cities with only 40-50 firefighters are safe. (if you got a few years in)
Cleveland, Oh has a history of laying off probies. However, within a few months, they get called back.
If you got more than 2 years in, you're IN.
And, i am VERY thankful for my career, i worked hard to acheive it. Nothing is taken for granted.
And, as to the comment of "public teat"...We pay the same taxes on our income as any other employed individual.
But that is a insignificant part of this whole discussion. Everyones "income" depends on the commerce of others.
We cant prosper unless someone is spending.
As for walmart, It saves my family money, although i dont wear crocs.

 

[slappy magoo]

I really want to thank you for your kind and intellectual words.
I do appreciate it. Its important to be professional in all debates, if not, one losses that debate. I do notice an isssue though-
Lets see, if one disagrees with some of you, one is discredited and though to have "invented yourself" or called a troll.
Here is a newsflash: Folks DO have an opinion and we all musnt agree with you.
1. Im an 8 year verteran of the USAF (1 year in kuwait/Iraq)
2. Been PROFESSIONAL Firefighter/NREMT-P for almost 16 years now, in Cincinnati, Oh
Sadly, i dont make 80k per year, good for the guys that do though, they EARN it. We make around 65k with a bit of O.T. We also work 24 on 48 off. We even got a 4.3% raise this year...Oh, the horror of it!
As for the "security" of fire or police careers....If one has the least bit of seniority, you are 99.9% safe. (and being "civil service" tested positions...its kinda like having tenure as a teacher. Even small cities with only 40-50 firefighters are safe. (if you got a few years in)
Cleveland, Oh has a history of laying off probies. However, within a few months, they get called back.
If you got more than 2 years in, you're IN.
And, i am VERY thankful for my career, i worked hard to acheive it. Nothing is taken for granted.
And, as to the comment of "public teat"...We pay the same taxes on our income as any other employed individual.
But that is a insignificant part of this whole discussion. Everyones "income" depends on the commerce of others.
We cant prosper unless someone is spending.
As for walmart, It saves my family money, although i dont wear crocs.

Pure drivel.

Bottom line: anyone who believes, as you oh-so-cheerily claim to, that everyone's income depends on the commerce of others, wouldn't be so quick to dismiss evidence that WalMart damages more communities where they open stores than help. Unless of course, that anyone is a S hiny H appy * - ryeyed T roll. If you want people to believe you're a grownup, don't spew one set of nonsense that immediately contradicts another set of nonsense.

But I think it's AWESOME that you like to pretend to be a military man and a firefighter. After all, isn't imagination what Walt Disney was all about? Maybe one day, you can be all you currently dream yourself to be. THEN people will take you seriously, I'll bet. You see? I like inspiring young people, even the ones trying to start fights on the internet. I'm like Richard Dreyfuss in Mr. Holland's Opus, only without the creepy mustache and the almost-seducing-a-student thing going on.

Anyway, don't be so testy. Remember your own philosophy my li'l S hiny H appy * - ryeyed T roll: Life is great! No Whining! :wave:

 

[Phonedave]

I really want to thank you for your kind and intellectual words.
I do appreciate it. Its important to be professional in all debates, if not, one losses that debate. I do notice an isssue though-
Lets see, if one disagrees with some of you, one is discredited and though to have "invented yourself" or called a troll.
Here is a newsflash: Folks DO have an opinion and we all musnt agree with you.
1. Im an 8 year verteran of the USAF (1 year in kuwait/Iraq)
2. Been PROFESSIONAL Firefighter/NREMT-P for almost 16 years now, in Cincinnati, Oh
Sadly, i dont make 80k per year, good for the guys that do though, they EARN it. We make around 65k with a bit of O.T. We also work 24 on 48 off. We even got a 4.3% raise this year...Oh, the horror of it!
As for the "security" of fire or police careers....If one has the least bit of seniority, you are 99.9% safe. (and being "civil service" tested positions...its kinda like having tenure as a teacher. Even small cities with only 40-50 firefighters are safe. (if you got a few years in)
Cleveland, Oh has a history of laying off probies. However, within a few months, they get called back.
If you got more than 2 years in, you're IN.
And, i am VERY thankful for my career, i worked hard to acheive it. Nothing is taken for granted.
And, as to the comment of "public teat"...We pay the same taxes on our income as any other employed individual.
But that is a insignificant part of this whole discussion. Everyones "income" depends on the commerce of others.
We cant prosper unless someone is spending.
As for walmart, It saves my family money, although i dont wear crocs.

Keep your head in the sand if you must - all of the below is local news for my area, it may be (or already has) heading your way as well . I have family in all walks of Civil Service - I used to be Civil Service myself - in the New York Public Utilites Regulartory Commission - that was a "tested for" job as well. I saw people with the same title I had (Valuation Engineer) cut. I got out when I saw the idea of security was a false one. My friends and family members have seen cuts in the variety of roles they work in (law enforcement (federal and local), fire, library services, public works, and code enforcement). Cuts are happening, to claim you are %99.9 safe is a pie in the sky attitude (but if it keeps you happy with no whining, then thats the point, right)

Townships are hurting. Tax rateables are down. State and Federal budget assistance has been cut to the bone. Residents cannot afford tax increases (because many have lost jobs) business are not attracting business to the area (because eveyone is in WalMart buying cheap mechandise that goes into landfills, but thats a different story) so the budget must be slashed somewhere. It used to be that the services were safe, becasuse anybody who proposed cutting them would not get elected, beacuse family and friends of police and fire would not vote for them. Well friendships only go so far when money is on the table. Towns are cutting or looking to move towards shared services plans.

That last one should get your attention. Thats CAPTAINS. Not Firefighters, not Lt's - CAPTAINS. Last I checked most Caps had at least 2 years of service - by your definition they would be "IN"

Here is the interesting thing. I assume you are FMBA. You spout a belief in Capatilisim (which I heartly believe in as well) How about you give up your union protections and your "Civil Service lock" and put your job on the line. Open it up for bid. Let your township run the township like a Capital Business. Give them the ability to hire or fire you at will, for no reason. Let someone compete for your job. Let a vendor come in - heck let WalMart start a "Sam Waltons Fire Protection Service" and charge the township $40,000 a head (and pay its people $30,000). What's the problem with that? Why should the taxpayers in your town not get the same options you do - "to shop where its cheap"?

http://www.nj.com/hobokennow/index.ssf/2009/03/layoffs_coming_to_hoboken_poli.html

Layoffs coming to Hoboken police, fire and city workforce


http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/essex/index.ssf?/base/news-5/1236659112142630.xml&coll=1

Maplewood to lay off 3 cops, 3 firefighters Library budget also cut by $187,000 in attempt to reach savings goal



http://www.njlawman.com/news-2009/004-pbalayoffs.htm

One in Five N.J. Police Agencies Considering Layoffs




http://jclist.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&type=&topic_id=16672&forum=12

Hoboken lays off police, fire & city workers / Bayonne reduces fire captains 42 to 11

 

[alecshawn]

Pure drivel.

Bottom line: anyone who believes, as you oh-so-cheerily claim to, that everyone's income depends on the commerce of others, wouldn't be so quick to dismiss evidence that WalMart damages more communities where they open stores than help. Unless of course, that anyone is a S hiny H appy * - ryeyed T roll. If you want people to believe you're a grownup, don't spew one set of nonsense that immediately contradicts another set of nonsense.

But I think it's AWESOME that you like to pretend to be a military man and a firefighter. After all, isn't imagination what Walt Disney was all about? Maybe one day, you can be all you currently dream yourself to be. THEN people will take you seriously, I'll bet. You see? I like inspiring young people, even the ones trying to start fights on the internet. I'm like Richard Dreyfuss in Mr. Holland's Opus, only without the creepy mustache and the almost-seducing-a-student thing going on.

Anyway, don't be so testy. Remember your own philosophy my li'l S hiny H appy * - ryeyed T roll: Life is great! No Whining! :wave:

Again, thanks for your kind words.
Very classy and well thought out.
I wish you well also...
I hope you acheive YOUR dreams as many of us have.

 

[alecshawn]

Keep your head in the sand if you must - all of the below is local news for my area, it may be (or already has) heading your way as well . I have family in all walks of Civil Service - I used to be Civil Service myself - in the New York Public Utilites Regulartory Commission - that was a "tested for" job as well. I saw people with the same title I had (Valuation Engineer) cut. I got out when I saw the idea of security was a false one. My friends and family members have seen cuts in the variety of roles they work in (law enforcement (federal and local), fire, library services, public works, and code enforcement). Cuts are happening, to claim you are %99.9 safe is a pie in the sky attitude (but if it keeps you happy with no whining, then thats the point, right)

Townships are hurting. Tax rateables are down. State and Federal budget assistance has been cut to the bone. Residents cannot afford tax increases (because many have lost jobs) business are not attracting business to the area (because eveyone is in WalMart buying cheap mechandise that goes into landfills, but thats a different story) so the budget must be slashed somewhere. It used to be that the services were safe, becasuse anybody who proposed cutting them would not get elected, beacuse family and friends of police and fire would not vote for them. Well friendships only go so far when money is on the table. Towns are cutting or looking to move towards shared services plans.

That last one should get your attention. Thats CAPTAINS. Not Firefighters, not Lt's - CAPTAINS. Last I checked most Caps had at least 2 years of service - by your definition they would be "IN"

Here is the interesting thing. I assume you are FMBA. You spout a belief in Capatilisim (which I heartly believe in as well) How about you give up your union protections and your "Civil Service lock" and put your job on the line. Open it up for bid. Let your township run the township like a Capital Business. Give them the ability to hire or fire you at will, for no reason. Let someone compete for your job. Let a vendor come in - heck let WalMart start a "Sam Waltons Fire Protection Service" and charge the township $40,000 a head (and pay its people $30,000). What's the problem with that? Why should the taxpayers in your town not get the same options you do - "to shop where its cheap"?

http://www.nj.com/hobokennow/index.ssf/2009/03/layoffs_coming_to_hoboken_poli.html

Layoffs coming to Hoboken police, fire and city workforce


http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/essex/index.ssf?/base/news-5/1236659112142630.xml&coll=1

Maplewood to lay off 3 cops, 3 firefighters Library budget also cut by $187,000 in attempt to reach savings goal



http://www.njlawman.com/news-2009/004-pbalayoffs.htm

One in Five N.J. Police Agencies Considering Layoffs




http://jclist.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&type=&topic_id=16672&forum=12

Hoboken lays off police, fire & city workers / Bayonne reduces fire captains 42 to 11

ALL of those layoffs have to take seniority into account. Rank has no merit. And, many WILL be through attrition if voted through.
I can almost assure you that no one with a few years on the job will go anywhere. NONE of those Captain will be layed off, they'll just return to the ranks or retire.
However, in MANY cases the "job reduction" is done through attrition.
If 5 retire, none or fewer are hired, or no one is hired.
One of your links told of a 10% reduction for ALL municipal emplyees, not just fire.
YES, there are fire/police layoffs, but they are a small % of the total force.
And, this is regional, in Ohio, despite an economic slowdown, very few cities are laying off.
One more thing, some cities have MORE firefighters that really needed or at least more than is required.
Cincy operates at minimum manning, hence...there is no positions to layoff.
However, if need be, the city would hire less or not at all to save money.
I can find layoffs in ANY industry or career also, but Fire/police jobs are incredibly safe. Nothing is 100% but we are talking within reason here. I'll take my blessings and chances.

 

[slappy magoo]

Again, thanks for your kind words.
Very classy and well thought out.
I wish you well also...
I hope you acheive YOUR dreams as many of us have.

No need to wish for me to achieve my dreams, young Alec, for when I was but a wee slip of a lad, all I ever wished for was a bull-S.H.*.T. detector. As you can see, I have it. The rest of my life, is gravy.

Oh, but a word of advice, only people who have no class deign to use words like "classy." If you're ever going to grow up to be a true fancy lad as you dream, the words we choose to use ARE important.

Oh, and phonedave, I give you similar words of advice that I gave Pumbas - by all means, attack li'l alec's juvenile rantings if you must. After all, there really are people that dumb. But don't for a second think he's one of them. alec's funnin' witcha. His mom is filtering the adult web sites and he's yet to figure out how to make the most productive use of his time...but you'll get there alec, I know it! Keep reaching for that rainbow!

 

[slappy magoo]

However, in MANY cases the "job reduction" is done through attrition.

"attrition?" OOOOOH, somebody got a word-a-day calendar for his Sweet 16th birthday!

 

[slappy magoo]

I can find layoffs in ANY industry or career also, but Fire/police jobs are incredibly safe. Nothing is 100% but we are talking within reason here. I'll take my blessings and chances.

But...


butbutbut...


you earlier said, and I quote "If you got more than 2 years in, you're IN."

Why, that almost seems contradictory!

You're never going to pass Introduction to Logic with that kind of sloppy rationalization! Hope you're majoring in lunch, junior! THAT way you have a shot at PASSING! :wave:

 

[EpcoTim]

"attrition?" OOOOOH, somebody got a word-a-day calendar for his Sweet 16th birthday!

Funny because its most likely true

And you've made some very good points Slappy. Same with you Dave, very well presented and laid out. Its just a shame people try to defend something so wrong when just claiming ignorance or just admitting they don't care would be the right thing to do.

 

[alecshawn]

No need to wish for me to achieve my dreams, young Alec, for when I was but a wee slip of a lad, all I ever wished for was a bull-S.H.*.T. detector. As you can see, I have it. The rest of my life, is gravy.

Oh, but a word of advice, only people who have no class deign to use words like "classy." If you're ever going to grow up to be a true fancy lad as you dream, the words we choose to use ARE important.

Oh, and phonedave, I give you similar words of advice that I gave Pumbas - by all means, attack li'l alec's juvenile rantings if you must. After all, there really are people that dumb. But don't for a second think he's one of them. alec's funnin' witcha. His mom is filtering the adult web sites and he's yet to figure out how to make the most productive use of his time...but you'll get there alec, I know it! Keep reaching for that rainbow!

Again, thank you. Your a very kind person and i also wish you the best.