Disney confirms 'Frozen' makeover coming to Epcot's Norway Pavilion

[AEfx]

Splash Mountain isn't a good thematic fit, but like other poor thematic fits (Soarin'), it's easier to forgive when the attraction is beloved. If Frozen is an excellent attraction it's going to have insufficient capacity to support it. The only scenario where it is a "success" is if it is a Stitch's Great Escape level of failure.

See, I think this is one of those places where some Disney fans over-think things, assign things deeper or more specific meaning than they really have.

For example, this is the first time ever I have heard anyone say anything about Splash Mountain being a poor thematic fit. Visually it fits in, the ride has a rustic type of feel, etc. - I really don't think most park guests (or even most Disney fans), have a problem because a land like Frontieerland is so generally themed anyway. I mean, were they not to add anything aside from more cowboy stuff?

Same with Soarin' - it's in The Land - and it takes you over a visual tour of many different landscapes. It's not profound, but it's not "why did someone put a tutu on that skunk" either.

 

[lazyboy97o]

See, I think this is one of those places where some Disney fans over-think things, assign things deeper or more specific meaning than they really have.

For example, this is the first time ever I have heard anyone say anything about Splash Mountain being a poor thematic fit. Visually it fits in, the ride has a rustic type of feel, etc. - I really don't think most park guests (or even most Disney fans), have a problem because a land like Frontieerland is so generally themed anyway. I mean, were they not to add anything aside from more cowboy stuff?

Same with Soarin' - it's in The Land - and it takes you over a visual tour of many different landscapes. It's not profound, but it's not "why did someone put a tutu on that skunk" either.

Frontierland was organized in a geographic and chronological order. The Georgia red clay of Chick-a-pin Hill is surrounded by the deserts of the American west.

 

[AEfx]

Frontierland was organized in a geographic and chronological order. The Georgia red clay of Chick-a-pin Hill is surrounded by the deserts of the American west.

And it fits in great visually and I have never, even on Disney sites, until now, heard anyone complain about it.

I get it - I do - the details count, etc. - but read what you said again...does that sound reasonable that a) anyone would actually be bothered by that aside from people who think way too much about these parks (as admittedly, I do) and b) anything that could ever be maintained when they added anything to the area?

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Never heard complaints about Splash? Perhaps if one is DL-centric. Splash fits with Critter country, well away from Frontierland. Slightly geographically related to New Orleans and the Old South, but cartoony.

DL did Splash right, WDW shoehorned it in.

Although the constant toonification of the RoA is making Splash blend in better. For example, nearby 'toon Pecos Bill', the absense of human canoes and keelboats, and even the toons in the Mansion queue.

 

[lazyboy97o]

And it fits in great visually and I have never, even on Disney sites, until now, heard anyone complain about it.

I get it - I do - the details count, etc. - but read what you said again...does that sound reasonable that a) anyone would actually be bothered by that aside from people who think way too much about these parks (as admittedly, I do) and b) anything that could ever be maintained when they added anything to the area?

It's not a new observation.

The area was intended for a flume ride, so I fail to see how the land's organization could not have been maintained.

 

[Matt_Black]

Although the constant toonification of the RoA is making Splash blend in better. For example, nearby 'toon Pecos Bill', the absense of human canoes and keelboats, and even the toons in the Mansion queue.

Oh, come now. How long has Pecos' been there? Quite a while. Don't compare that to the queue (which I actually think is neat, but YMMV).

 

[AEfx]

I didn't say it was new, I said I have never heard of it - it's just news to me. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that. I'm just surprised that it's such a "thing" and I've never seen hide nor tail of it in the 12 years or so I have been on Disney sites.

I think this clearly illustrates where a lot of folks are coming from, though - people have very very specific ideas of what belongs where that are based on what the park looked like when it opened or an interview they read once where someone gave their personal intention.

I completely get that theming/etc. is of vital importance, even if it is on a more subliminal/subconscious level, but personally I just think that people have quantified those things, trying to give concrete reasoning to things that were only meant to be general feelings to begin with.

It's only natural when folks study something with such intensity that wasn't really meant to be analyzed in such a way - I just think there are different degrees of this, and sometimes the voices of the most orthodox among us can benefit from a little bit of stepping back and looking at the larger picture as most people experience it.

 

[RSoxNo1]

And it fits in great visually and I have never, even on Disney sites, until now, heard anyone complain about it.

I get it - I do - the details count, etc. - but read what you said again...does that sound reasonable that a) anyone would actually be bothered by that aside from people who think way too much about these parks (as admittedly, I do) and b) anything that could ever be maintained when they added anything to the area?

It's certainly not the first time I've mentioned it, but it's far less important because it's the best ride in that park.

 

[Matt_Black]

It's certainly not the first time I've mentioned it, but it's far less important because it's the best ride in that park.

I'd say it's tied with TOT, but I see your point.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Oh, come now. How long has Pecos' been there? Quite a while. Don't compare that to the queue (which I actually think is neat, but YMMV).

Yes, it's been there a long time, but, as my close friends know, my memory is infallible.

The mere passage of time does not diminish a thematic breach. Frontierland, indeed the MK, has been toddler- and toonified the way WS Norway is toddler- and toonified currently. Just more stealthily, over a longer timespan.

Below the slow, painful transformation of the MK from adult into kiddie toonpark.
Bright colours and toons plastered all over a place that once wowed visitors with theme executed with such stubborn perfection and relentless craving for authenticity that 'Disneyfied' touched on sophisticated.

 

[EPCOTCenterLover]

Yep- I like the old style and approach to theming MUCH better.

 

[ToTBellHop]

I didn't say it was new, I said I have never heard of it - it's just news to me. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that. I'm just surprised that it's such a "thing" and I've never seen hide nor tail of it in the 12 years or so I have been on Disney sites.

I think this clearly illustrates where a lot of folks are coming from, though - people have very very specific ideas of what belongs where that are based on what the park looked like when it opened or an interview they read once where someone gave their personal intention.

I completely get that theming/etc. is of vital importance, even if it is on a more subliminal/subconscious level, but personally I just think that people have quantified those things, trying to give concrete reasoning to things that were only meant to be general feelings to begin with.

It's only natural when folks study something with such intensity that wasn't really meant to be analyzed in such a way - I just think there are different degrees of this, and sometimes the voices of the most orthodox among us can benefit from a little bit of stepping back and looking at the larger picture as most people experience it.

You do understand the theming of Frontierland, right? The numbers on the buildings are years. Big Thunder is in the late 1800s out west. As you head east through Frontierland, the buildings have architecture that increasingly moves east and time goes backwards. You cross a creek that represents the Mississippi R. And you arrive in Liberty Square in the 1700s. It is one of the most impressively themed corridors in Walt Disney World. With a bayou-themed slave-era flume stuck in place, based upon an incredibly unpopular film. It was shoehorned in. And it's not as though WDI didn't realize that it didn't belong. Our ride's score was given that country twang to make it seem like it fits. But, really, Br'er Rabbit pooped all over glorious 1970s theming.

And for the record, this theming was first pointed out to see on a Keys to the Kingdom tour. Disney intends for guests to notice this progression. If they look away from their smart phones.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I didn't say it was new, I said I have never heard of it - it's just news to me. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that. I'm just surprised that it's such a "thing" and I've never seen hide nor tail of it in the 12 years or so I have been on Disney sites.

I think this clearly illustrates where a lot of folks are coming from, though - people have very very specific ideas of what belongs where that are based on what the park looked like when it opened or an interview they read once where someone gave their personal intention.

I completely get that theming/etc. is of vital importance, even if it is on a more subliminal/subconscious level, but personally I just think that people have quantified those things, trying to give concrete reasoning to things that were only meant to be general feelings to begin with.

It's only natural when folks study something with such intensity that wasn't really meant to be analyzed in such a way - I just think there are different degrees of this, and sometimes the voices of the most orthodox among us can benefit from a little bit of stepping back and looking at the larger picture as most people experience it.

This isn't some vague thing mentioned in some obscure interview. It is what was built and remains to this day.

 

[AEfx]

Just more stealthily, over a longer timespan.

Below the slow, painful transformation of the MK from adult into kiddie toonpark.

I guess that's the fundamental thing..

What you see as "stealthy, over a longer time span" I see as simply time moving on and things developing further. I just imagine how limited the experience would be in the parks if they stuck to every single thing that supposedly was when the park opened, if every little bit marketing material or original intention by a specific employee had to be held to for all time.

I get that you see it as devolved, but I think that's a matter of opinion - evolved is just as easy to see, IMO. While the quality of what they are building has certainly dropped, I honestly can't imagine, even if we had a time machine, someone who isn't a park historian walking through Frontieerland in 1972 and blasting them to the future to do the same in 2015, and seeing these things that folks are posting as deficiencies.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

I didn't say it was new, I said I have never heard of it - it's just news to me. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that. I'm just surprised that it's such a "thing" and I've never seen hide nor tail of it in the 12 years or so I have been on Disney sites.

I think this clearly illustrates where a lot of folks are coming from, though - people have very very specific ideas of what belongs where that are based on what the park looked like when it opened or an interview they read once where someone gave their personal intention.

I completely get that theming/etc. is of vital importance, even if it is on a more subliminal/subconscious level, but personally I just think that people have quantified those things, trying to give concrete reasoning to things that were only meant to be general feelings to begin with.

It's only natural when folks study something with such intensity that wasn't really meant to be analyzed in such a way - I just think there are different degrees of this, and sometimes the voices of the most orthodox among us can benefit from a little bit of stepping back and looking at the larger picture as most people experience it.

Those are good points. But there is a difference between mistaking Disney for an exercise in historical or cultural re-enactment (MK and WS) or a science museum (FW), versus insisting on thematic integrity. The former demands correspondence with an outside reality (which would be amiss), the latter only consistency within an imagined reality (which is what made these areas great).

In practical terms, it is okay if the Millenium Falcon or hyperspace do not conform to rules of physics. It is overthinking it to hold that against Star Wars. But it is not okay [spoiler alert!] for Donald Duck to be revealed as the real Sith Overlord behind Darth Sidious in Episode VII.


To Frozenfy that, my main criticism is not that Frozen does Norway injustice. Why, WS already presents a Disneyfied version of reality Norway. No, the problem is that Frozen does WS injustice, and clashes with WS' internal reality.

 

[Matt_Black]

With a bayou-themed slave-era flume stuck in place, based upon an incredibly unpopular film.

The film as a whole? Yes. The animated segments and characters, however, are very popular, and Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah is unquestionably one of the most popular Disney songs.

 

[ToTBellHop]

Those are good points. But there is a difference between mistaking Disney for an exercise in historical or cultural re-enactment (MK and WS) or a science museum (FW), versus insisting on thematic integrity. The former demands correspondence with an outside reality (which would be amiss), the latter only consistency within an imagined reality (which is what made these areas great).

In practical terms, it is okay if the Millenium Falcon or hyperspace do not conform to rules of physics. It is overthinking it to hold that against Star Wars. But it is not okay [spoiler alert!] for Donald Duck to be revealed as the real Sith Overlord behind Darth Sidious in Episode VII.


To Frozenfy that, my main criticism is not that Frozen does Norway injustice. Why, WS already presents a Disneyfied version of reality Norway. No, the problem is that Frozen does WS injustice, and clashes with WS' internal reality.

Indeed. Disney bastardizing reality is nothing new and is to be expected. These are amusement parks. How many offensive cliches can you find on "it's a small world"? It's when Disney bastardizes Disney that I take offense as it feels similar to a theme park in China making an awful version of the MK that is nonetheless clearly the MK.

 

[ToTBellHop]

The film as a whole? Yes. The animated segments and characters, however, are very popular, and Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah is unquestionably one of the most popular Disney songs.

Because of Splash Mountain. Approximately no one alive today has seen the film. Imagine if Br'er Fox turned Br'er Rabbit into a "tar baby" on the ride instead of dousing him in honey...I have, unfortunately seen the film. Obvious issues aside, I just didn't find it compelling and the cute toons don't actually make up much of the film.

The ride would have been a wonderful addition to Fantasyland, where it belongs and which actually needed a mountain in 1992. Still, I'll gleefully ride the thematic failure and the silver lining is that we got quite a few upgrades over the DL version.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I guess that's the fundamental thing..

What you see as "stealthy, over a longer time span" I see as simply time moving on and things developing further. I just imagine how limited the experience would be in the parks if they stuck to every single thing that supposedly was when the park opened, if every little bit marketing material or original intention by a specific employee had to be held to for all time.

I get that you see it as devolved, but I think that's a matter of opinion - evolved is just as easy to see, IMO. While the quality of what they are building has certainly dropped, I honestly can't imagine, even if we had a time machine, someone who isn't a park historian walking through Frontieerland in 1972 and blasting them to the future to do the same in 2015, and seeing these things that folks are posting as deficiencies.

If an idea no longer works, then it should be fully replaced. The themes being stretched are not tight, specific narratives. They're rather broad and that's what makes their being ignored is an issue.

 

[RSoxNo1]

I'd say it's tied with TOT, but I see your point.

Tower of Terror is in the Magic Kingdom?