Disney (and others) at the Box Office - Current State of Affairs

[Disney Irish]

I see people saying Marvel is building up to Young Avengers, but I really don't see the Disney of today committing to anything with Wiccan and Hulking in it for the reasons stated above.

I think there will be uproar in the fan community if they add Wiccan but leave off Hulkling. I would think they would reference but not make it overly apparent there is a romance between the characters, at least initially.

 

[John park hopper]

 

[erasure fan1]

The best I can tell, you both agree the controversy around the kiss had some effect but isn't primarily responsible for the film's failure, but you're eager to minimize the controversy as you do with a lot of the attacks on Disney while for Tony the attack is of greater significance. Apologies if I misinterpret.

I don't think I'm eager to minimize it. I've always stated it has an effect. Where I think you see my comments as minimizing, is when the movie is so far below success, the controversy, while part of it, didn't kill it. When a movie does so poorly that the vast majority of all sides don't see it, it might be that the film just wasn't that great to begin with. I'm not giving them a pass on films I don't think are that great. I'm not really sure why that's some hot take? I also feel like there's a constant undertone of, no, that can't be the real reason you think that. And when posts that aren't some crazy content, and they're constantly spammed with mad and omg emojis, it shows the true nature of that poster.

I have shown my support for diverse content. I've been outspoken about my love of rogue one, peacemaker, wonder woman, muppets mayhem, princess and the frog... I even said the best part of haunted mansion was the cast. Heck, look at my user name, I'm not some person who won't see something like lightyear, or strange world because of it's "controversial" stuff.

 

[TP2000]

Disney has also been hurt by a concerted, bad-faith assault on their brand by some of the most powerful people in the country. The amount of damage is debatable, but its existence is not.

Does that shadowy group of "powerful people" in the USA also explain the miserable box office results overseas for Disney's mega-budget tentpoles too?

Why did Wish only get a $2 Million opening weekend in Mexico, when Super Mario Bros. had a $27 Million opening weekend in Mexico? Wish only had a $1 Million opening weekend in Spain, where Super Mario Bros. had a $5 Million opening weekend.

Why did The Marvels only get an $8 Million box office total in the UK, while low budget PG-13 video game movie Freddy's has over a $12 Million box office total in the UK?

Does the "concerted, bad-faith assault" on Disney "by some of the most powerful people in the country" also explain why Disney's mega-budget movies have been bombing overseas too? Or is there a different group of powerful people that are controlling foreigners wallets and Friday night entertainment decisions?

Because moviegoers from London to Lima seem to be making the same decisions as moviegoers in Lansing and Las Vegas.

‘The Marvels’ Flops at International Box Office With $63 Million, Dramatically Behind 2019’s ‘Captain Marvel’

There's nothing super about the opening weekend of Disney's superhero adventure "The Marvels."

variety.com

 

[TP2000]

2023 had five successful blockbusters - Oppenheimer, Barbie, Spider-Verse, Guardians 3, and Mario. Disney had one, Sony had one, Warners had one, and Uni had two. It's a shockingly low blockbuster batting rate.

The bigger problem Disney has, in my opinion, is their ridiculously bloated budgets on their lavishly funded and staffed Burbank corporate campus. (Plus a second one up in Emeryville for Pixar, just in case)

The five blockbusters you cited are great examples of that. Plus I threw in The Little Mermaid, to allow for BIPOC representation for birthing people because there was no diversity in the other blockbusters lead actors/actresses.

Quick N' Dirty Math from the chart below; Barbie made $525 Million profit, Oppenheimer made $325 Million profit, Super Mario Bros. made $550 Million profit, Spiderman made $190 Million profit.

While Guardians made a $70 Million profit and The Little Mermaid lost $110 Million for Disney.

It's amazing how fast the profit turns into a loss when you spent $250 Million on a production budget, and up to $140 Million on marketing (Mermaid), isn't it???

 

[celluloid]

The bigger problem Disney has, in my opinion, is their ridiculously bloated budgets on their lavishly funded and staffed Burbank corporate campus. (Plus a second one up in Emeryville for Pixar, just in case)

The five blockbusters you cited are great examples of that. Plus I threw in The Little Mermaid, to allow for BIPOC representation for birthing people because there was no diversity in the other blockbusters lead actors/actresses.

Quick N' Dirty Math from the chart below; Barbie made $525 Million profit, Oppenheimer made $325 Million profit, Super Mario Bros. made $550 Million profit, Spiderman made $190 Million profit.

While Guardians made a $70 Million profit and The Little Mermaid lost $110 Million for Disney.

It's amazing how fast the profit turns into a loss when you spent $250 Million on a production budget, and up to $140 Million on marketing (Mermaid), isn't it???

View attachment 756785

A valid point when looking back to 2019 that everyone has such a love for thinking we should be back to that 11 billion already too.

2019 had many 50-80 million budget hits that did well too. There were a group of movies that had success in the 114-180 million range. Not all smash hits, but a lot in that range becuase they diversified. Mostly Universal and Lion's Gate. Never Disney.

 

[Ghost93]

I see people saying Marvel is building up to Young Avengers, but I really don't see the Disney of today committing to anything with Wiccan and Hulking in it for the reasons stated above.

I think there is less controversy with gay characters in movies and TV shows targeting teens and adults than there is with children's movies. If they don't do Wiccan and Hulking there will be controversy about erasing LGBT leads. If they do, there will likely be complaints about Young Avengers being "woke" but not the kind of outcry you see over Lightyear and Strange World.

Personally, I think the Young Avengers should be a Disney Plus series instead of a movie. There would be less restrictions on the LGBT characters on the streaming format. Furthermore, many of the characters on the team have made their debut on Disney Plus, so it makes sense to continue the story in that format.

 

[AdventureHasAName]

I think there will be uproar in the fan community if they add Wiccan but leave off Hulkling. I would think they would reference but not make it overly apparent there is a romance between the characters, at least initially.

There is no fan community. These are two characters nobody cares about. It's part of the problem Marvel is having right now ... they are pushing characters (who happen to be far more popular than Wiccan and Hulkling - like She-Hulk, Sam Wilson, Nick Fury, Captain Marvel) and learning nobody is spending any money to watch these stories.

 

[Casper Gutman]

There is no fan community. These are two characters nobody cares about. It's part of the problem Marvel is having right now ... they are pushing characters (who happen to be far more popular than Wiccan and Hulkling - like She-Hulk, Sam Wilson, Nick Fury, Captain Marvel) and learning nobody is spending any money to watch these stories.

There are absolutely people who care very much about Wiccan and Hulkling. It’s probably comparable to the number of people who cared about Iron Man before the first film (not heard of, care about) and exceeds the number who cared about the Guardians before thier debut.

 

[erasure fan1]

There are absolutely people who care very much about Wiccan and Hulkling. It’s probably comparable to the number of people who cared about Iron Man before the first film (not heard of, care about) and exceeds the number who cared about the Guardians before thier debut.

That's very true. It's not about the characters they try to use. Its how well those characters are written, and how good the stories are. I've said it before, if Gunn can make us care about a talking tree and racoon, anything can be great.

 

[Disney Irish]

There is no fan community. These are two characters nobody cares about. It's part of the problem Marvel is having right now ... they are pushing characters (who happen to be far more popular than Wiccan and Hulkling - like She-Hulk, Sam Wilson, Nick Fury, Captain Marvel) and learning nobody is spending any money to watch these stories.

No fan community? Are you speaking about only MCU, comics in general, the general public, who are you speaking for here? I can say there is a Marvel fan community, both of the comics and movies, and they care about these characters.

Nobody outside the fan community cared about Iron Man before 2008, and yet look how that turned out. Same with Cap, Thor, Black Panther, Hulk, and every other Marvel character outside of Spider-Man. Just because you may not care for certain characters doesn't mean there isn't a fan community for them.

 

[TP2000]

I think there is less controversy with gay characters in movies and TV shows targeting teens and adults than there is with children's movies. If they don't do Wiccan and Hulking there will be controversy about erasing LGBT leads. If they do, there will likely be complaints about Young Avengers being "woke" but not the kind of outcry you see over Lightyear and Strange World.

Exactly. The issue is not that Disney is putting 2SLGBTQQIA+ characters into movies aimed at teenagers and adults, it's that Disney is putting that content (in a pointless and pandering way, so no one really wins) into movies aimed at young children.

I'm not a parent, I barely made it through my Cool Uncle phase 20 years ago, but I have it on good authority that parents have a real tough time with movies aimed at young children having that type of content in it.

But the moment you design and produce the movie with a PG-13 rating and go after the 14 and up crowd, most objections disappear here in the 2020's. Disney seems to have learned that lesson after Strange World and Lightyear, but let's see if it sticks.

 

[AdventureHasAName]

No fan community? Are you speaking about only MCU, comics in general, the general public, who are you speaking for here? I can say there is a Marvel fan community, both of the comics and movies, and they care about these characters.

All of the above. Historically, nobody has paid to read comics centered on these characters. They have no name recognition outside a very small subset of comic book readers. As I stated in the earlier post, there are characters with decades and decades of history and stories, that have served as focal-points in huge team books (like She-Hulk, or the Falcon) and who have 100% name id within the MCU larger fanbase (like Nick Fury) who nobody is tuning in to watch.

Does that mean a good movie (or TV show) cannot be made with these characters that makes a lot of money? No. The Guardians of the Galaxy demonstrated that (those were all characters nobody, comparatively speaking, cared about prior to the films). However, the idea that "Well, we just need to throw characters like Wiccan and Hulking at the problem and that'll be sure to sell tickets," is absurd. They have an almost non-existent fanbase in the comics community and nobody has heard of them.

 

[AdventureHasAName]

There are absolutely people who care very much about Wiccan and Hulkling. It’s probably comparable to the number of people who cared about Iron Man before the first film (not heard of, care about)

The Guardians of the Galaxy? Maybe. I don't think so, but maybe.

Iron Man? No way. When the first film came out, Iron Man had been in existence almost fifty years, had his own comic for decades, and was one of the three main characters in Marvel's most popular team book for decades. As a kid, I had an Iron Man MEGO doll in the late 1970s (and Spiderman, Hulk, Captain America, Superman, Batman, etc). I even remember having Iron Man Viewmaster disks (try explaining that concept to people under 30 years old).

I just tried Googling this (and struck out), but has the Young Avengers ever even been a Top 10 comic book in terms of yearly sales? Top 20? Not a Wiccan book (or a Hulkling book) ... just the Young Avengers?

 

[Disney Irish]

All of the above. Historically, nobody has paid to read comics centered on these characters. They have no name recognition outside a very small subset of comic book readers. As I stated in the earlier post, there are characters with decades and decades of history and stories, that have served as focal-points in huge team books (like She-Hulk, or the Falcon) and who have 100% name id within the MCU larger fanbase (like Nick Fury) who nobody is tuning in to watch.

Does that mean a good movie (or TV show) cannot be made with these characters that makes a lot of money? No. The Guardians of the Galaxy demonstrated that (those were all characters nobody, comparatively speaking, cared about prior to the films). However, the idea that "Well, we just need to throw characters like Wiccan and Hulking at the problem and that'll be sure to sell tickets," is absurd. They have an almost non-existent fanbase in the comics community and nobody has heard of them.

Who here said they would be just thrown into a story for no reason. We don't even know what story the MCU will be telling with the Young Avengers. All we know is that the Young Avengers is coming to the MCU, and at least in the comics these two characters were part of that team. We know that Wiccan is at least already part of the MCU and is expected to play a role in the upcoming Coven of Chaos show. So its a pretty good bet he'll be added to the MCU roster for the Young Avengers. So that leaves only Hulkling as being an unknown. Now I can say there are comics fans out there that know and are fan of both these characters. It could be a small subsection, but they are clearly not "nobody".

So instead of saying "nobody" why not just say that you "don't believe there will be enough interest in those characters in the general public". That is a something that while may or may not be true is at least better than saying "nobody is a fan or knows those characters", which is clearly not true.

 

[AdventureHasAName]

Now I can say there are comics fans out there that know and are fan of both these characters. It could be a small subsection, but they are clearly not "nobody".

Are they enough to sell movie tickets or Disney+ subscriptions?

 

[Casper Gutman]

The Guardians of the Galaxy? Maybe. I don't think so, but maybe.

Iron Man? No way. When the first film came out, Iron Man had been in existence almost fifty years, had his own comic for decades, and was one of the three main characters in Marvel's most popular team book for decades. As a kid, I had an Iron Man MEGO doll in the late 1970s (and Spiderman, Hulk, Captain America, Superman, Batman, etc). I even remember having Iron Man Viewmaster disks (trying explaining that concept to people under 30 years old).

I just tried Googling this (and struck out), but has the Young Avengers ever even been a Top 10 comic book in terms of yearly sales? Top 20? Not a Wiccan book (or a Hulkling book) ... just the Young Avengers?

Let me amaze you by telling you how well Iron Man and Captain America comics sold.

A significant portion of what’s going on is older adults convinced the characters and stories THEY remember are the “real” ones and nothing valid happened after they stopped reading comics.

 

[Ghost93]

I suspect there will be an upcoming Avengers: Children's Crusade adaptation within the next few years. In that comic series, Wiccan and Speed meet their grandfather — X-men villain Magneto — and go on a quest to find their mother (Wanda), who happens to be getting married to Doctor Doom. The Avengers try to stop Magneto. Later the Avengers and X-men get in a fight over what to do about Wanda (who previously nearly wiped out all of mutantkind).

The Young Avengers tag along with Wiccan and Speed during this comic series and Cassie Lang (Ant-man's daughter) ends up dying from what I remember.

 

[Disney Irish]

Are they enough to sell movie tickets or Disney+ subscriptions?

I have no idea, and neither do you.

 

[Disney Irish]

I suspect there will be an upcoming Avengers: Children's Crusade adaptation within the next few years. In that comic series, Wiccan and Speed meet their grandfather — X-men villain Magneto — and go on a quest to find their mother (Wanda), who happens to be getting married to Doctor Doom. The Avengers try to stop Magneto. Later the Avengers and X-men get in a fight over what to do about Wanda (who previously nearly wiped out all of mutantkind).

The Young Avengers tag along with Wiccan and Speed during this comic series and Cassie Lang (Ant-man's daughter) ends up dying from what I remember.

I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't pick pieces from it, maybe not the entire thing and would have to be modified for the MCU, but could be. House of M was already partially used so could be a good followup.