Different way of handling queues?

[Monty]

GAC

I started by saying that eliminating FP+ and only having one line wouldn’t work. GAC works with the FP+ lines and therefore has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. If the only available line has a wait of 40+ minutes, a GAC doesn’t help.

 

[Capsin4]

There's a whole science around this called queuing theory. And the math supports the view that it's a zero sum game. Standby lines move less, yes. But they are physically shorter because of FP. There are a finite number of people in the park at any one time and therefore a finite number of people available.to wait on lines and go on attractions. You may not like the way FP makes the lines feel, or that FP causing you to have to schedule things takes some of the fun away. Those are perfectly valid arguments. But to say that it makes waits longer simply isn't supported by the math or the data.

Its only zero sum in the aggregate. All else being equal, the average wait time for all guests will be the same. Individual wait times will depend on specifics.

 

[t3techcom18]

I started by saying that eliminating FP+ and only having one line wouldn’t work. GAC works with the FP+ lines and therefore has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. If the only available line has a wait of 40+ minutes, a GAC doesn’t help.

So, firstly, yes, getting rid of FP entirely for GE would be the best way to solve this situation regarding queuing. Let's get that out of the way. The way queuing gets supremely worse with FP is because of the merging of two separate lines and having a ratio that dictates FP going majority, standby second (the 3:1 ratio that is applied to attractions; whether or not it works for each one is a different story for another time). It would have everyone on the same playing field and make the lines shorter. As someone else has said, some attractions have benefited from having FP (basically those who have dual loading platforms, ie, SM, Star Tours, Dinosaur, etc), others have had it destroy their already efficient queues (Peter Pan, SSE, HM, etc). One only needs to look at how TSM in Disneyland was before they introduced FP only a few years ago compared to the lines for it at DHS and that was without a third track.

Now, as for the actual bit you're talking about, you're acting as if no attractions have accessibility access. Since the ADA act was put into place, all attractions, no matter what age, have to made reasonable accommadations for those with disabilities. The GAC was a good, but flawed system in many ways. The new DAS system is much better in many aspects. You get the time that's assigned to you determined by the countering of the standby wait and the whole group goes up the FP line. Bam. Simple. You don't have to wait in standby at all, you can go do anything you want and return at whenever.

How did the HP attractions handle it with no Express access for the first several years? The same way GE could do it: by only having standby for everyone and when it comes to folks that need accessbility access, they have their assistance pass, they get a return time and when it was time, they entered the attraction via the already built but unused Express lane, thereby having limited to no wait.

Tl:dr: As someone who had worked in Attractions at WDW for 7 years, every attraction at every park in the country (and presumably the world) has their own way of including disability access. Just have to do your homework.

 

[Po'Rich]

I am have been talking about the psychology of the poor, apparently, unworthy guests in the standby line that have to wait and wait and wait for the "privileged" FP holders to legally jump in front of them like they are nothing more then minced underwear.

This argument would be much more convincing if fastpasses cost. They don't. Everyone, regardless of income, have equal access to them. Essentially, a fastpass is just a ride reservation. If you want to go to a single line, why not just take it the other way? Require everyone wanting to ride to have a fastpass (especially for the bigger rides). That would also result in equity where one line wouldn't be "cutting" in front of the other.

 

[Master Yoda]

There's a whole science around this called queuing theory. And the math supports the view that it's a zero sum game. Standby lines move less, yes. But they are physically shorter because of FP. There are a finite number of people in the park at any one time and therefore a finite number of people available.to wait on lines and go on attractions. You may not like the way FP makes the lines feel, or that FP causing you to have to schedule things takes some of the fun away. Those are perfectly valid arguments. But to say that it makes waits longer simply isn't supported by the math or the data.

Am I correct in assuming that no one told you not to bring facts and data into a FP discussion?

I am sure everyone would appreciate it if you would simply rant and rave and share stories of the olden days before fastpass.

Thanks you for your cooperation.

 

[Goofyernmost]

There's a whole science around this called queuing theory. And the math supports the view that it's a zero sum game. Standby lines move less, yes. But they are physically shorter because of FP. There are a finite number of people in the park at any one time and therefore a finite number of people available.to wait on lines and go on attractions. You may not like the way FP makes the lines feel, or that FP causing you to have to schedule things takes some of the fun away. Those are perfectly valid arguments. But to say that it makes waits longer simply isn't supported by the math or the data.

It is supported by standing in the same place in the SB line (pre-FP) and how long it takes to get there after FP. It is a day dream to think that it doesn't affect the longer line that is Standby in just about every attraction that has it. I understand the wanting to make ourselves feel better by thinking it has Zero sum if you consider it for an individuals entire day, but, not for individual attractions. It is no where near Zero sum. Second, they are not shorter lines. That is another justifying falsehood. They are just split up in two lines so it seems shorter. The reality based on my original scenario goes like this. If you got in one line at 8 am and were the 50th in that line and by 8 am there were also 50 in that FP line, and assuming that no one joins those lines until you are on. You will be the 100th person on the ride. If, on the other hand you got to a single line and ended up in 50th and behind you in that same line 50 more joined, you will be the 50th rider. Same number of people, same overall number of people serviced in the same amount of time, however, your position in that line dictated when you would ride. Not with FP, you wait until all 99 others have ridden and then you get on. Sadly, the reality is that more and more will join that FP line while you are waiting for the 99 that started out ahead of you so your 50th spot balloon up to an infinity depending on the number of finite people are in the park on that day.

 

[Capsin4]

Am I correct in assuming that no one told you not to bring facts and data into a FP discussion?

I am sure everyone would appreciate it if you would simply rant and rave and share stories of the olden days before fastpass.

Thanks you for your cooperation.

Except he brought neither really. The fact that queueing theory exists and it’s zero sum across all riders doesn’t mean standby wait times aren’t affected by FP+.

If you do reference the people who have real wait time data, at least two sources concluded the same: FP+ has had a different effect on different attractions. Some have increased, some have decreased and some have been unaffected. You can find this online.

It’s the head liners that have decreased wait times (Everest, space, tot) and the more pleasant rides that have increased wait times, pirates being one. It’s clear, that elasticity of demand is different for a variety of reason across these ride categories. It’s interesting that those with decreased standby times are overwhelmingly the higher thrill rides.

My background is mathematics and I’ve worked in simulation and analytics for many years. I’m not new to queuing theory.

 

[Capsin4]

I understand the wanting to make ourselves feel better by thinking it has Zero sum if you consider it for an individuals entire day,

It’s zero sum per attraction, all else being equal. The average wait time per attraction across all guests who ride remains unchanged. It’s not necessarily zero sum for an individual across their itinerary. Again, all else being equal.

The thing is, all else isn’t equal and standby lines have been affected differently across all attractions.

 

[Goofyernmost]

This argument would be much more convincing if fastpasses cost. They don't. Everyone, regardless of income, have equal access to them. Essentially, a fastpass is just a ride reservation. If you want to go to a single line, why not just take it the other way? Require everyone wanting to ride to have a fastpass (especially for the bigger rides). That would also result in equity where one line wouldn't be "cutting" in front of the other.

I'd be happier if they did charge for FP. That way, at least, I could feel that they paid extra to cut the line. The way it is now sucks. There is a difference between having access and actually being able to get one. However, that is a good idea. Perhaps we should do away with Standby and just issue everyone a FP. That would solve all the problem and we'd be back to a single line again. And then once they reached capacity the suckers that didn't get on the phone in the middle of the night would just have to pound sand and perhaps go to Six Flags if they actually want to see something in a park. It works out the same and it still would only be able to accommodate whatever the days attraction capacity actually is.

I am not trying to change anyone's mind, what you believe will be what you believe and what I believe will remain the same, so it is time to end this circular discussion. It is what it is. I think it sucks others think god him/her self assigned this plan to Disney. It doesn't change the current reality. If you ask anyone what line they would prefer and why, their and your answer should be the thing that actually is the reality, math or no math.

 

[HoustonHorn]

This argument would be much more convincing if fastpasses cost. They don't. Everyone, regardless of income, have equal access to them. Essentially, a fastpass is just a ride reservation. If you want to go to a single line, why not just take it the other way? Require everyone wanting to ride to have a fastpass (especially for the bigger rides). That would also result in equity where one line wouldn't be "cutting" in front of the other.

While it is technically true that WDW does not charge extra for FP (other than the ability to purchase extras if you're staying club level), there is a nuance - the ability to make FP 60+10 for those staying onsite. This inherently benefits those staying on property, and it benefits those staying longer, who can make those hard-to-get FP for the latter parts of their trips. My most recent trip was a 6-nighter, so we could make FP 66 days out. Not a single SDD was available for any day of my trip, in part because those staying for 10 nights+ were able to snag them. So for folks whose incomes do not permit them to stay onsite (or to "only" be able to stay onsite for a relatively short number of days), those hard-to-get FPs may be unobtainable. Not saying this is a good or bad thing in and of itself - there are plenty of good arguments that Disney should provide extra benefits to folks who are spending more money.

I agree with Goofyer - I think that it was more enjoyable pre-FP, even if total wait time was more, less or the same.

 

[matt9112]

I started by saying that eliminating FP+ and only having one line wouldn’t work. GAC works with the FP+ lines and therefore has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. If the only available line has a wait of 40+ minutes, a GAC doesn’t help.

dont worry FP+ is money on the table it isnt going anywhere....FREE fp? that might not last forever but the option period? nah.

 

[mikejs78]

Its only zero sum in the aggregate. All else being equal, the average wait time for all guests will be the same. Individual wait times will depend on specifics.

Well, yes, that's always true. When we are talking about generalizations such as this, it's the aggregate.

The reality based on my original scenario goes like this. If you got in one line at 8 am and were the 50th in that line and by 8 am there were also 50 in that FP line, and assuming that no one joins those lines until you are on. You will be the 100th person on the ride. If, on the other hand you got to a single line and ended up in 50th and behind you in that same line 50 more joined, you will be the 50th rider. Same number of people, same overall number of people serviced in the same amount of time, however, your position in that line dictated when you would ride.

The premise of your arguement isn't right. Unless you get there at park opening, if you got in today and there were 49 people in the standby line, and 50 people passed through FP while you were waiting,a you'd be 100th person to ride the attraction. But in the pre Fastpass days if you arrived at the same time, there would be 100 people in the line, not 50.

If you do reference the people who have real wait time data, at least two sources concluded the same: FP+ has had a different effect on different attractions. Some have increased, some have decreased and some have been unaffected. You can find this online.

Yes, that's true. Most have been unaffected or decreased, a handful have shown increases. Here's a relevant analysis that explains it.

The biggest factor affecting wait times over the past decade has been the increase in crowds. In the blog mentioned above they mentioned that Disney had an 8% attendance increase between. 2012 and 2014. It's only gone up since then. It's that increase and lack of new capacity, not the FP system, that had led to longer wait times as a whole.

agree with Goofyer - I think that it was more enjoyable pre-FP, even if total wait time was more, less or the same.

And that's valid, but subjective. I, for example, find Disney more enjoyable with FP.

 

[Purduevian]

I did a lot of math on how FP+ Affects wait times HERE. I know this is not perfect, but by my estimates wait times go up an average of 25 minutes on each attraction and a customer must make ~4 fastpasses on average attractions in order to break even on wait time throughout the day. They need less than 3 if they are skipping a ride with long waits (7 dwarfs, space, splash, ect) and more than 4 if they are skipping less desired attractions (tea cups, dumbo, ect.)

 

[chelle_belle00]

We just got back from WDW last week. I have never seen such bottlenecking of people when entering, and trying to leave, ToyStory Land. When are they going to open up another exit, because there is only one way in and one way out. I see it as a safety hazard if something bad were to happen and everyone ran for the exit. I'm wondering if it will be the same one way in/out when Star Wars Land opens up. CM's holding a pole with KEEP RIGHT on it wasn't working very well during our visit.
As far as wait times for newer rides, it was 250 minutes for Slinky Dog. I wonder if, when all FP's have been distributed for the day, there was another way to distribute tickets for regular line guests, like a FP, that had staggered times for when they could come back. If Disney could figure out how many people they can process in an hour or 90 minutes, maybe two hours (including FP peeps), they might be able to avoid having guests stand in line for up to four hours or more. Those guests could spend more time at the park and not waste it standing around. I laughed at the absurdity of people waiting that long, but then felt bad because they were determined to get on that ride during their trip... and that's where I think another type of pass queue would benefit everyone. Think back to when the Frozen ride opened...a 6 hour wait, and with little kids. Dad probably stood in line and mom walked the kids around without him. Depending on age, there aren't a lot of rides for little princesses to go on at EPCOT. They just want to see Anna and Elsa. With only two attractions going in for SW:GE, I can't imagine the wait times for them. They'll be out of this world, pun/no pun intended.

 

[DisneyJoe]

We just got back from WDW last week. I have never seen such bottlenecking of people when entering, and trying to leave, ToyStory Land. When are they going to open up another exit, because there is only one way in and one way out. I see it as a safety hazard if something bad were to happen and everyone ran for the exit. I'm wondering if it will be the same one way in/out when Star Wars Land opens up. CM's holding a pole with KEEP RIGHT on it wasn't working very well during our visit.

Potentially when they convert Pixar Place to Monstropolis as well as have the connection to SW:GE there will be enough flow???

 

[mikejs78]

I did a lot of math on how FP+ Affects wait times HERE. I know this is not perfect, but by my estimates wait times go up an average of 25 minutes on each attraction and a customer must make ~4 fastpasses on average attractions in order to break even on wait time throughout the day. They need less than 3 if they are skipping a ride with long waits (7 dwarfs, space, splash, ect) and more than 4 if they are skipping less desired attractions (tea cups, dumbo, ect.)

First, the data doesn't support your math. Accounting for attendance increases, aggregate wait time is constant before and after FP+ (with some attractions having higher wait times, some lower). The other thing is your numbers assume a zero sum game as far as people in the park at any given time. Park attendance is fluid throughout the day. People arrive at Rope drop. People leave. People come late morning. People park hop in the evening. Daily attendance is the aggregate of rhosr people, there aren't 56k people in the park at once (well, maybe at Christmas).

One of the things FP does is flatten out the peak times and distribute riders to different attractions throughout the day. So in the old system I may have lined up for SM as soon as I got to the park. But with FP I was able to get a FP for later in the day so I avoid the standby line now.

So your math rests on some flawed assumptions, I think, and the historical data also illustrates that overall, standby wait times are pretty static.

 

[DinoInstitute]

We just got back from WDW last week. I have never seen such bottlenecking of people when entering, and trying to leave, ToyStory Land. When are they going to open up another exit, because there is only one way in and one way out. I see it as a safety hazard if something bad were to happen and everyone ran for the exit. I'm wondering if it will be the same one way in/out when Star Wars Land opens up. CM's holding a pole with KEEP RIGHT on it wasn't working very well during our visit.
As far as wait times for newer rides, it was 250 minutes for Slinky Dog. I wonder if, when all FP's have been distributed for the day, there was another way to distribute tickets for regular line guests, like a FP, that had staggered times for when they could come back. If Disney could figure out how many people they can process in an hour or 90 minutes, maybe two hours (including FP peeps), they might be able to avoid having guests stand in line for up to four hours or more. Those guests could spend more time at the park and not waste it standing around. I laughed at the absurdity of people waiting that long, but then felt bad because they were determined to get on that ride during their trip... and that's where I think another type of pass queue would benefit everyone. Think back to when the Frozen ride opened...a 6 hour wait, and with little kids. Dad probably stood in line and mom walked the kids around without him. Depending on age, there aren't a lot of rides for little princesses to go on at EPCOT. They just want to see Anna and Elsa. With only two attractions going in for SW:GE, I can't imagine the wait times for them. They'll be out of this world, pun/no pun intended.

They can create all the fastpass systems they want, but none of it will be able to change the capacity/throughout of the attraction. As long as the demand is there, there’s really nothing they can do to artifically decrease wait times.

 

[RSoxNo1]

On one of my recent podcasts we discussed the idea of bringing back the Pavilion experience in Epcot. This was motivated by the current practice of rushing from Fastpass+ to Fastpass+ thanks to My Disney Experience and we looked at Test Track as a great example. Currently Test Track has a 45 minute wait and is regularly the #1 or #2 wait in that park. It also has a great Post Show that is often rushed through to get to the next attraction. Back in the World of Motion days, guests would have a minimal wait for the ride and spend more time in the post show. Why can't the old Epcot post show model be flipped so that the post show becomes the pre-show ever more than at already is. Implement the Dumbo/Fallon model in rides that allow for it and guests can be better entertained while they wait.

Guests can still get a Fastpass, guests can still wait Standby, but the Standby line will be in the current Post Show area until your group is called. Obviously some reconfiguration of the Pavilion would be necessary, but it really seems like Test Track especially can benefit from this type of setup.

If crowds were an issue at the Imagination Pavilion prior to the character additions it too would have also been a great fit for this.