Devil's Advocate

[The Mom]

We as a country have grown this sort of blind worship of those who served in the military. They're not all great people. Many are, but it is not a universal default. There are shmucks and jerks who have served. Lee Harvy Oswald served in the Marines. John Allen Muhammad (DC sniper) and Nical Malik Hasan (Ft. hood shooter) both served in the Army. The military even runs their own criminal justice system because they're human, and there are good ones and bad ones in the mix. If these tours were veterans it would add an angle of sympathy, but it doesn't change that they're exploiting the system for their financial gain.

IMO it's an overreaction in an attempt to assuage our collective guilt over how our Viet Nam Vets were treated in the late 60s/70s. These were young men who, for the most part, were drafted and had no choice - unless they chose to be imprisoned, or leave the country, or were able to stay in school until it was over. They died and were wounded by the thousands. Anti-War protesters reviled them, and even supporters just wanted them to come back and act as if nothing had ever happened. No thanks, no counseling, poor medical treatment, etc. My brother came back a different person, and still bears the scars - both physical and emotional. Some classmates never returned.

People finally realized how shamefully the country as a whole had treated them, and most have vowed that it will never happen again.

 

[Mark In KY]

I said this in another thread, but...

Disabled people are unable to do many jobs because of their handicap. If they find a job where their handicap helps them, I have no problem with them taking advantage. Unfair that they should only have to deal with the crappy parts of being handicapped and not be able to take advantage of any opportunity it might offer them.

If they can make money being tour guides, I'm all for that and wish them well.

I do see the other side, though, and don't fault people who have a problem with it.

FAKING a disability to gain access to any small perks the disabled may get in life is despicable, though.

I think that it's great that accomodations can be made so that the disabled can participate in the workplace and for want of a better phrase, "get out and about".
However, hiring a disabled tour guide, and/or pretending that they are a family member, solely for the purpose of gaining the advantages that WDW offers to the disabled is totally sleazy.
Perhaps paid tour guides, disabled or not, should be told by Disney, "Hey, you're on the clock. You don't get to ride but have to wait by the exit while your clients get in line with everybody else". Having typed that, let me say that I know that's basically impossible.
Now that I think about it, hiring a disabled tour guide to enjoy the things that WDW provides to the disabled is actually a form of exploitation of the disabled. But if you're being paid to be exploited, well Americans have pretty much perfected The Art Of Self-Exploitation anyway.

 

[Hot Lava]

If they can make money being tour guides, I'm all for that and wish them well.

But they are not making money off being tour guides. They are making money off claiming to be disabled, abusing that system, and then getting people to pay them for the abuse of the system - all under the guise of a "tour guide".

If Disney wants to hire disabled people to act as actual tour guides, terrific. But as a human front-of-the-line-pass, not ok.

 

[Nemo14]

IMO it's an overreaction in an attempt to assuage our collective guilt over how our Viet Nam Vets were treated in the late 60s/70s. These were young men who, for the most part, were drafted and had no choice - unless they chose to be imprisoned, or leave the country, or were able to stay in school until it was over. They died and were wounded by the thousands. Anti-War protesters reviled them, and even supporters just wanted them to come back and act as if nothing had ever happened. No thanks, no counseling, poor medical treatment, etc. My brother came back a different person, and still bears the scars - both physical and emotional. Some classmates never returned.

People finally realized how shamefully the country as a whole had treated them, and most have vowed that it will never happen again.

I think you have a point there. Another thing is that a lot of people volunteered for service as a personal reaction to the 9/11 events. Given the horrors of that day, it was pretty heroic to offer up one's life for the good of the country.​

 

[KCheatle]

I'm pretty sure the reason this story came to light is the audacity of it. There's no question that ethically/morally this is wrong. In the simplest sense, it's a lie. The group is lying in saying that the tour guide is part of their family in order to cheat the system. It's lying. Now, if the tour guide wants to take his family/friends and skip the line - by all means, do it. IMO, if you are truly disabled (not just obese, thereby causing your own disability), then please go in front of me every time. Allowing you to go in front is one small thing I can do to show you compassion for the hand you were dealt.

Having said that, this story did not come to light because it is rampant in the parks. Chances are the majority of people on this board have never personally run into this. So, in short, I don't really think it's that big of a deal. Perfectly able-bodied people cheat the system a lot more than these people do.

 

[Mark In KY]

IMO it's an overreaction in an attempt to assuage our collective guilt over how our Viet Nam Vets were treated in the late 60s/70s. These were young men who, for the most part, were drafted and had no choice - unless they chose to be imprisoned, or leave the country, or were able to stay in school until it was over. They died and were wounded by the thousands. Anti-War protesters reviled them, and even supporters just wanted them to come back and act as if nothing had ever happened. No thanks, no counseling, poor medical treatment, etc. My brother came back a different person, and still bears the scars - both physical and emotional. Some classmates never returned.

People finally realized how shamefully the country as a whole had treated them, and most have vowed that it will never happen again.

A reasonable interpretation. Now we have an all-volunteer military and the pendulum has swung the other way in that each and every member is treated as if they singlehandedly "won the war" while with their other hand saved an entire elementary school from burning to death.
I have been told by more than a few current, active duty troops that they are rather embarrassed when they are the objects of such public acclaim. One said, "I'm a cook in the Officers' Club at Ft. Knox. It's all I do, it's all I will do as long as I'm in and when I get out I'll cook for some restaurant chain. I find thanking me "for my service" to be ridiculous."

 

[luv]

IMO it's an overreaction in an attempt to assuage our collective guilt over how our Viet Nam Vets were treated in the late 60s/70s. These were young men who, for the most part, were drafted and had no choice - unless they chose to be imprisoned, or leave the country, or were able to stay in school until it was over. They died and were wounded by the thousands. Anti-War protesters reviled them, and even supporters just wanted them to come back and act as if nothing had ever happened. No thanks, no counseling, poor medical treatment, etc. My brother came back a different person, and still bears the scars - both physical and emotional. Some classmates never returned.

People finally realized how shamefully the country as a whole had treated them, and most have vowed that it will never happen again.

I was still coloring outside the lines when it ended, so it all seems like history to me.

So sad, the way many people behaved. I know they really were well-intentioned and that most grew up to be ashamed of it, but those stories are depressing.

I'm grateful to those who fight to protect us, especially those who CHOOSE to put their lives on the line so that we can worry about nail polish colors and non-working Yetis instead of beheadings. If I had to pick between over-worship and under-worship, I'd take the over.

 

[bethymouse]

Allow me to present another hypothetical situation. Let's say that a disabled war hero, unemployed with a family to support, robbed a bank; and getting a bag of money was the one thing that made him feel "normal". Would his behavior still be despicable or a blessing in disguise? My point is this; it is never right to do wrong. If one's moral stand involves seeing the use of a disability falsely for the sake of convenience as being wrong, then it should never be justified by contrived circumstances. If one sees nothing wrong with the use of a disability dishonestly for the sake of convenience, then any given circumstances should not be a factor. We should stand on principles, disabled or not.

Amen to that!

 

[bethymouse]

I actually don't think there's anything wrong with this except for the fact that the disabled person is charging the people for letting them hang with him/her at Disneyworld/land. If you take that payment out of the equation, there's nothing wrong with it.

You know how some amusement parks (Six Flags for example) now have options where if you pay more you don't have to wait in the same lines as everyone else? That's not so different, except Six Flags gets the payment.

I respectfully disagree. Even if they don't get "paid", it's still morally wrong- IMHO. In a perfect world...

 

[bethymouse]

The real way to look at this is to remove the fact that the disabled person is doing this. If it was ANY person, do we think it is correct and admirable behavior? If it is, then we should not have a problem with what was done. If it is not, then changes need to be made.

As a person in education, I see students all the time who have disabilities that impact their learning abilities. They, too, wish to be normal. We make accommodations to maximize thier potential, but we do not allow them to cheat, to avoid work, or to use their accommodations as a way of avoiding responsibilites.

The same should be said for all people who are 'disabled' who wants to use this disability to do something that is dishonest at the least

AMEN!

 

[bethymouse]

I'm pretty sure the reason this story came to light is the audacity of it. There's no question that ethically/morally this is wrong. In the simplest sense, it's a lie. The group is lying in saying that the tour guide is part of their family in order to cheat the system. It's lying. Now, if the tour guide wants to take his family/friends and skip the line - by all means, do it. IMO, if you are truly disabled (not just obese, thereby causing your own disability), then please go in front of me every time. Allowing you to go in front is one small thing I can do to show you compassion for the hand you were dealt.

Having said that, this story did not come to light because it is rampant in the parks. Chances are the majority of people on this board have never personally run into this. So, in short, I don't really think it's that big of a deal. Perfectly able-bodied people cheat the system a lot more than these people do.

I guess we'd really never recognize it much if we're already in line and the CMs take them into a "secret" entrance.

 

[jmorri26]

I think the problem stems from, in general, our lax policies on who can be considered handicapped- especially at Disney.
There's a big difference to me between truly physically disabled and wanting a break for the day- and Disney (and most doctors) are ok with saying anything goes. They can't tell you you're not handicapped and they can't expect anyone wanting the pass to present a wheelchair or lengthy doctors notes (even then that wouldn't be hard to get for silly reasons) To Disney, that boy with Cerebral Palsy is just as handicapped as the lady with a mild case of arthritis or the like or the 400 lb guy on the scooter mowing down turkey legs. And to me, that's not cool. In the interview, both people we're admittedly totally healthy and fine! The girl got in a wreck and got a handicapped sticker from a doctor so she can skip into City Hall at DL waving that around and get passes til she's blue in the face- and they can't stop her. Even if she's getting paid through the nose to cheat the system, it's her system to cheat and Disney is never going to tell her that the people with her can't go with her because they're in her party and, unfortunately, that's how their rule works.
I've seen wheelchair bound kids pushed through the handicapped entrance by families knowing the person couldn't ride but they wanted to go without a wait. Disney can't say thats not fair the actual handicapped person isn't riding so no one can ride, but the system works for them. It's unfortunate but if there's places to bend or break rules, selfish people will find a way. Short of wagging a finger at them, there's little Disney can or will do short of demanding written proof of handicaps and even then, you'll still have droves of people who have less that ethical doctors happy to write whatever they want.