deleted

[eliza61nyc]

And where exactly was I disrespectful or condescending? I think frustrated might be the word you are looking for.

Stating facts isn't condescending. If you don't want to accept the reality of what is really going on, feel free to put me on ignore, because I will not be silenced the same way others have been. I really miss @WDW1974 because I'm sure he could have explained this better than I ever could, but sadly it looks like he has been one of the people drowned out by the new wave of fans.

And you should not be silenced but sorry calling people "ignorant " is not a fact. Period. And yes deriding people about what they like is rude and condescending. You call it fact? Ok where's your proof that people liking "cupcakes " as you stated it is the reason behind disneys latest trends?? Or the proof that this current customers likes are wrong.

I've got no horse in this race whether you complain or not, whether you go or not or whether you like Epcot or not but like you I will not be silent when you start name calling.

 

[LittleBuford]

I never called anyone names. Do not accuse me of doing things I have not done. I don't feel like going back and forth with you anymore so this will be the last time I respond to you in this thread.

This is what these people do. They get upset when they are called out and begin to make up lies to fit their agenda.

I think there are some crossed wires involved here, and the situation has escalated needlessly. You referred at one point to the ignorance of some of today’s fans, which is why you’re being accused of calling people ignorant. There is a distinction between what you said and how it’s being understood, but it’s a subtle one, and I can see why your words have been construed as an insult.

For my part, I’m not offended by what you’ve written, even though I’m among the problem fans from your perspective. At the end of the day (and I can’t believe I’m saying this!), it is just a theme park, and not a moral issue worth falling out with people over.

 

[xdan0920]

Interesting thread. @George and I talk about this on occasion. The fan base has for sure changed quite a bit.

Personally, I would say anyone who has bought DVC direct from Disney in the past handful or so years is the new target audience. These are people paying $200 a point, so upwards of $40,000 for a time share at what is more and more an amusement park complex. The idea of Disney's Vacation Kingdom, of being transported, of magic is all but disappearing. And these folks are out here dropping tens of thousands of dollars in order to vacation there every year for 40 years. It's pretty wild stuff.

 

[LittleBuford]

The idea of Disney's Vacation Kingdom, of being transported, of magic is all but disappearing.

I don’t understand this claim. If you’re referring to arguably lazy design decisions like the Guardians warehouse, what about projects like Pandora and SWL, which are highly immersive and otherworldly?

 

[Shouldigo12]

And where exactly was I disrespectful or condescending? I think frustrated might be the word you are looking for.

Stating facts isn't condescending. If you don't want to accept the reality of what is really going on, feel free to put me on ignore, because I will not be silenced the same way others have been. I really miss @WDW1974 because I'm sure he could have explained this better than I ever could, but sadly it looks like he has been one of the people drowned out by the new wave of fans.

I think Buford explained it best. I don't think you were trying to come off as condescending, and that your heart was in the right, very passionate, place. But it is not fact that the parks are worse. That's opinion. It isn't "reality", at least not for everyone. And no one is trying to silence you. I'm trying to get you to understand that your attitude towards people that don't share your opinion and how you're suggesting people who agree with you deal with them is disrespectful and will not be recieved well. It's fine if you don't like the way things are going in the parks. I can understand your reasoning. But just because an opinion is yours does not make it true. There's no need for you to educate someone who doesn't share your views, and the suggestion that there is is insulting.

Basically, everyone on here is free to talk and debate their opinion with others. But we should not be acting like some opinions are more valid than others.

 

[bigrigross]

Interesting thread. @George and I talk about this on occasion. The fan base has for sure changed quite a bit.

Personally, I would say anyone who has bought DVC direct from Disney in the past handful or so years is the new target audience. These are people paying $200 a point, so upwards of $40,000 for a time share at what is more and more an amusement park complex. The idea of Disney's Vacation Kingdom, of being transported, of magic is all but disappearing. And these folks are out here dropping tens of thousands of dollars in order to vacation there every year for 40 years. It's pretty wild stuff.

Or we like where we see the parks going? I mean disney NEEDS to work on their maintenance and cleaning of the parks because some of those restrooms are horrendous during the day. 10 years ago, you would rarely see a trash can over flowing. Now, I can see it 2 or 3 times a day and that part needs to be resolved NOW!. But in terms of how the parks are progressing with IPs and new rides instead of refurbishing old rides, I think its what disney needs to do to stay on top.

The only reason people visit epcot anymore is because of the food festivals. Not because of the attractions. Just look at attendance when their are no festivals going on. Its pretty bare.

Also, no idea why you attacking people buying directly from DVC, but I can EASILY rent out my points and get twice my annual dues back in cash if I do not go a year. Why do people think you are stuck going to disney every year?

 

[xdan0920]

Or we like where we see the parks going? I mean disney NEEDS to work on their maintenance and cleaning of the parks because some of those restrooms are horrendous during the day. 10 years ago, you would rarely see a trash can over flowing. Now, I can see it 2 or 3 times a day and that part needs to be resolved NOW!. But in terms of how the parks are progressing with IPs and new rides instead of refurbishing old rides, I think its what disney needs to do to stay on top.

The only reason people visit epcot anymore is because of the food festivals. Not because of the attractions. Just look at attendance when their are no festivals going on. Its pretty bare.

Also, no idea why you attacking people buying directly from DVC, but I can EASILY rent out my points and get twice my annual dues back in cash if I do not go a year. Why do people think you are stuck going to disney every year?

I didn't say you were stuck going to Disney every year.

I am glad you like where the parks are going. That's great for you. I don't and like I said, the target audience of the Disney Resort has changed. IMO. I am no longer the target audience. You are. That's not an attack. We just like different things.

 

[xdan0920]

I don’t understand this claim. If you’re referring to arguably lazy design decisions like the Guardians warehouse, what about projects like Pandora and SWL, which are highly immersive and otherworldly?

What about them?

 

[LittleBuford]

What about them?

You said, "The idea of Disney's Vacation Kingdom, of being transported, of magic is all but disappearing". If this were so, why would Disney still be creating ambitious new lands that are all about transporting you to other words?

 

[xdan0920]

You said, "The idea of Disney's Vacation Kingdom, of being transported, of magic is all but disappearing". If this were so, why would Disney still be creating ambitious new lands that are all about transporting you to other words?

SWL isn't open yet, so I have no idea what that will be like. AvatarLand is visually impressive that's true enough. It's pretty severely underbuilt however. But okay, let's say it's a mark in the plus side of the ledger for TDO. Toy Story Land is a big fat mark in the negative. Cheap, sloppy, poorly planned. So, yeah.

 

[networkpro]

So, with the original statement that the old time fans are dying off and the newer fans don't care/it's no longer relevant to them, I'd like to reiterate that I'm 14, all of my statements are my own, and I came about them myself. I was not influenced by anyone other than Disney themselves, who've proven to me through the duct tape and broken effects that they do not care about Epcot, and that the good park bit the dust long ago. I'm a firm believer in the original ideals of EPCOT Center, and it sucks what's come about it. Even if you look at the park today and completely ignore what it once was, it's still thematically inconsistent, it's still a mess, and it's still terrible show.

EPCOT was doomed from its beginning as it set in stone the function of each area. Zero flexibility for infrastructure or even zone use... that theme was "nailed in the coffin dead" in 1966. Even subsequent smaller attempts at place building with residents like Celebration were spun away from the company as it never wanted or showed capacity for the ability for the day to day running of a city.

 

[networkpro]

Or we like where we see the parks going? I mean disney NEEDS to work on their maintenance and cleaning of the parks because some of those restrooms are horrendous during the day. 10 years ago, you would rarely see a trash can over flowing. Now, I can see it 2 or 3 times a day and that part needs to be resolved NOW!. But in terms of how the parks are progressing with IPs and new rides instead of refurbishing old rides, I think its what disney needs to do to stay on top.

The only reason people visit epcot anymore is because of the food festivals. Not because of the attractions. Just look at attendance when their are no festivals going on. Its pretty bare.

Also, no idea why you attacking people buying directly from DVC, but I can EASILY rent out my points and get twice my annual dues back in cash if I do not go a year. Why do people think you are stuck going to disney every year?

I would counter with the customers are different which leads to the piles of trash and dirty bathrooms... buried in thier individual spaces with little care for anything outside of their little glowing boxes as being inconvenient.

 

[Disstevefan1]

In my opinion, the Walt Disney company does what it thinks is the best for the shareholders at the time and has indeed made mistakes. Mistakes are not limited to the theme parks. Remember John Carter (ironically I liked the movie, in any event a big loser for Disney) As for the theme parks, Disney continues to pour money into the failing Disneyland Paris, as you can see by my icon, I loved horizons (but I think there was a sink hole under it?) , the imagination pavilion was really great when it first opened with the upstairs and the light tunnel and the much preferred first version of the ride. There are many mistakes, with perhaps the worst being the people mover in Disneyland, they literally killed it.

My point is that Disney makes decisions they think is right at the moment but they make mistakes, some big ones. My hope that the bulldozing of the imagination pavilion is just a bad rumor, because it a beautiful structure, gut it sure, but keep the structure.

No matter what we say Disney will do what they think is right for their shareholders. As for the theme parks, In the end it doesn't matter what they do, folks just keep coming......

 

[Jimmy Thick]

No matter what we say Disney will do what they think is right for their shareholders.

Disney is a publicly traded company legally they have to do whats right for the shareholders not the consumer. Upset millions of fans who cares? Upset one shareholder and Disney has problems.

As for the changing demographics of Disney fans, I don't think there is a changing demographic I think Disney fans have been spoiled by the internet and every rotten thing that it produces.

If there was no internet would we really have all this negativity towards Disney?

No, I highly doubt it.

See my theory is ever since people got access to instant information about anything Disney all it has done is ruin the once magical places. People are tipping off what Disney has planned long before Disney is ready to make announcements. Back in the day you went to the park, saw a wall up and maybe a poster of whats coming soon. And you waited for the next magical experience, now you go on Youtube and people are posting ride videos minutes after brand new multimillion dollar rides open spoiling a lot of peoples hard work. It was "magic" waiting for new stuff, that was part of the "magic", this whole pixie dust brigade garbage ad nauseam "magic".

Now there is no secrecy. People will get info, debate it, formulate unreal expectations and watch a ride video and proclaim it a failure. Without experiencing anything themselves mind you, just going with the flow of popular opinion or even worse agreeing with people just for internet, ( Arrg that word again ) acceptance.

How many people said Avatarland was going to be a flop? Its probably Disney's biggest hit in years, and still drawing in crowds.

What is the demographic for people on this very site who said Avatar was going to fail? Ask yourself if you are a part of that demographic in your most private moments...

I enjoy reading this site and for some reason @wdwmagic has not banned me yet so out of respect I keep my posting to a minimum, but I'm going to say one final time what I always say.

Go to the parks, enjoy them with people you love and see them for what they are now and have become and what they have always been.

A vacation money pit.


If you want "magic" back, you have to cut the cord.

Demographics? Nah.



Jimmy Thick- Posting under a VPN.

 

[Chef Mickey]

Most Disney "fans" are casual fans. As a percentage of total, there are very few people that even know Horizons existed, and fewer still that care.

I had a woman at my office proclaims to be a "HUGE DISNEY FAN" and was just there for her anniversary. When I asked her where she stayed, she couldn't even remember.

Sadly, Disney is shaped for the masses. They think Frozen is a good ride because it has Anna, Elsa, and Olaf.

Over time, the laziness we see in current attractions will erode the brand, but Disney can always whip something up to bring you right back to being a huge fan.

What got Disney Parks their notieratory is unfortunately somewhat dead in favor of promoting the current box office hit or IP give up attraction that would have never passed for Disney even 15 years ago.

Toy Story Land is a perfect example of a lazy "land" with A+ IP and D- theming/attractions.

 

[Joesixtoe]

Experimental. Prototype. Community. Of. Tomorrow. I'm wondering, after all these changes, will they or should they change the Epcot name? I can understand both sides, IPs can be exciting and a way to experience your favorite characters. Non ip rides are ways to experience a brand new story that's unique only to theme parks. Mickey's run away railway I think is about time they make the central character an actual ride. But with all this, I sure do miss the "future" epcot once had us longing for.

 

[bigrigross]

I would counter with the customers are different which leads to the piles of trash and dirty bathrooms... buried in thier individual spaces with little care for anything outside of their little glowing boxes as being inconvenient.

That doesnt help either. But I have seen the trash cans overflowing with trash and not a CM to be seen. Its not one someone expects to see at a disney park. Of course people throwing trash on the ground, thats a different story. I have just noticed over the years that disney isnt being as clean as it once was due to cuts.

 

[eliza61nyc]

Experimental. Prototype. Community. Of. Tomorrow. I'm wondering, after all these changes, will they or should they change the Epcot name? I can understand both sides, IPs can be exciting and a way to experience your favorite characters. Non ip rides are ways to experience a brand new story that's unique only to theme parks. Mickey's run away railway I think is about time they make the central character an actual ride. But with all this, I sure do miss the "future" epcot once had us longing for.

I actually thought I read somewhere that the powers that be abandoned that concept long ago as being to expensive to continuously do. I can see how without sponsorship trying to keep abreast of every thing "of tomorrow" can get costly.

 

[larryz]

I actually thought I read somewhere that the powers that be abandoned that concept long ago as being to expensive to continuously do. I can see how without sponsorship trying to keep abreast of every thing "of tomorrow" can get costly.

Hey, yesterday, today was tomorrow. And tomorrow, today will be yesterday.
Sing it with me...

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

All of you people blindly accepting change to anything should do a double take and look at this stuff. Why close operating attractions that people enjoy when you have empty buildings EVERYWHERE to put new attractions in first?

I started going to WDW in the early 1970's, so I'm confident I qualify as an old-time fan.

I think it has to do with WDW's corporate structure, costs, and the way big investments are made these days than fans. It is the same reason we have SO VERY MANY Marvel movies these days.

In earlier days, Walt took great risks. Disney didn't quite know what was going to work, and Disney made PLENTY of mistakes. Over time, Disney has become more risk averse, same as the movie industry. Walt put everything on the line, but present day shareholders would much rather see a sure bet than a giant flop. C'mon, like it or not, "Frozen" was very near a sure bet; just as Harry Potter was a sure bet for Universal. Frozen had to go somewhere.

I suspect , when it comes to Stitch, the physical space itself has significant limitations.

For me personally, I'm generally amazed by how much staying power MK has had! How many American amusement parks are LONG GONE? Yet much of MK is similar to how it was 40 years ago, and STILL popular!

Operating rides costs $. I don't totally disagree with you here, but rides need a certain amount of foot traffic to make operations worthwhile.

For what it is worth, I think closed attractions spots are a bit sad and depressing. Future World and Tomorrowland also long ago crossed over into Yester-World and Retro-land territory. As much as I like Buzz, goodness, it desperately needs an update. They don't have to gut the concept, just give it a nice technology update. WoE was also depressingly old. Wonders of Life had some really cool STEM displays, but few folks stopped to play with them, and that was quite a while ago. People complained that early Epcot was too educational, and that was a LONG time ago.

Ultimately, if WDW doesn't have crowds, it won't continue to exist. I also secretly suspect that on some level, WDW is copying Universal. WDW wants to have their own Harry Potter.