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[LittleBuford]

So your last paragraph pretty much sums it up. If most of the new announcements morph into "the old stuff is better", there must be something to it.

But that’s assuming that the views in this forum are representative of general opinion. The prevalent tone here is declinist and nostalgic, but most people who go to the parks seem to like what Disney is offering.

 

[DreamfinderGuy]

So, with the original statement that the old time fans are dying off and the newer fans don't care/it's no longer relevant to them, I'd like to reiterate that I'm 14, all of my statements are my own, and I came about them myself. I was not influenced by anyone other than Disney themselves, who've proven to me through the duct tape and broken effects that they do not care about Epcot, and that the good park bit the dust long ago. I'm a firm believer in the original ideals of EPCOT Center, and it sucks what's come about it. Even if you look at the park today and completely ignore what it once was, it's still thematically inconsistent, it's still a mess, and it's still terrible show.

 

[RandySavage]

But that’s assuming that the views in this forum are representative of general opinion. The prevalent tone here is declinist and nostalgic, but most people who go to the parks seem to like what Disney is offering.

I'm both (declinist and fan of SOME of the new stuff they're doing). If you like theme parks, WDW was at such a platinum standard that it can decline quite a bit and still be among the best available offerings in the medium.

 

[LittleBuford]

I'm both. If you like theme parks, WDW was at such a platinum standard that it can decline quite a bit and still be among the best available offerings in the medium.

I’m both too, but in a different way from you: I think some things are now better than they once were, while some things are worse. Overall, it’s still an amazing experience for me, and I prefer to look forward rather than yearn for a lost past.

 

[Corgi]

Why are you guys so against IP?

 

[Oddysey]

There is nothing to it. It is just that if we liked something we feel it is better. However, the fact is that those of us that felt that the old was better are also old and our visits take on a duty of nostalgia. The vast majority are going now that have no real memory of what once was. Those that are set on constantly talking about how much better it was are only talking to the few that are even aware of what the past was. We are also the people that would be spending more of our time on boards like this. So, just because there are a core number of people that are adamant about the superiority of the past are really just saying that they like it better then what is currently happening. That doesn't make it right or wrong. All it means is that in our opinion it was better. As long as the younger visitors find it good and are going to return then what we are so sure is bad, is their memories that 30 years from now will be complaining about how the new stuff isn't as good as it was when they started going there.

I am not asking this in a combative way I just want your opinion. Do you believe current Disney leadership would green light a project of similar scope and quality when compared to the original EPCOT Center?

I say this knowing that while EPCOT Center in its original incarnation was mind blowing in 1982, but if left untouched, would be an extremely dated relic from the past that would not hold up in 2019. The first time I ever experienced a touch screen and a Skype like system (dinner reservations) was in 1980's EPCOT. It was a display of technology I never knew existed until I experienced it at the theme park. I just cant imagine what EPCOT Center 2019 would be like if the same vision with care for quality were applied today.

 

[Shouldigo12]

Why are you guys so against IP?

Usually the argument against IPs is that they lack creativity and use familiarity and popularity in place of quality.

 

[RandySavage]

Why are you guys so against IP?

Safe to say most are not against IP unilaterally - who doesn't love Indiana Jones in Adventureland. I'm against the IP-Mandate: No more park-originated rides for the foreseeable future (I'd prefer a 70-30 mix, favoring Originality; instead it will be 0-100 mix for future development, and what's there and non-IP is in danger of being converted (e.g. UP: A Bird Adventure). And I'm against shoe-horning IP where it detracts/dilutes/kiddifies the wider land or park theme.

 

[MisterPenguin]

In the "Inside Out Replacing Imagination" thread, it was recently revealed by @marni1971 that there is a possibility of the entire Imagination Pavilion being demolished, including the removal of Figment altogether. Shortly after this was revealed, I made the following comment in that thread, and @nated1226 suggested that an entire thread be created discussing my post.



Before I dive further into this, I want to clarify that I don't "hate" anyone specifically. I should have worded my first sentence a bit differently, because I was trying to say that I hate the direction that the fanbase is going.

So over the past several years, we have seen constantly rising prices, and many classic attractions have been removed in favor of attractions based on IP. While some IP attractions rightfully belong in the parks, there are many that are placed where they are unwanted by what I will call the "old style" Disney fans. Some examples would include Guardians of the Galaxy: Mission Breakout in DCA, UP: A Great Bird Adventure in DAK, and Frozen Ever After in EPCOT. It is also widely known that Walt Disney World has not received a new non-IP attraction since Expedition Everest opened in 2006. The question is why? Why has Disney abandoned what made them the king of themed entertainment in the first place, by bringing us things that we never knew we wanted, like Pirates of the Caribbean, Kilimanjaro Safaris, Horizons, Great Movie Ride, or the Enchanted Tiki Room? Up until recently, most, but not all, IP based attractions were reserved for Fantasyland, and those that weren't were used very carefully, such as Splash Mountain and Twilight Zone Tower of Terror. We are now living in a time where careful placement of IP has gone out the window, and we are seeing an unprecedented amount of IP attractions replacing old favorites.

So what changed? My theory is the fanbase.

With the rise of social media over the past several years, literally anybody, anywhere, can get behind a screen and voice their opinion, no matter how misguided it may be. This has caused lots of tension in society in general, not just among Disney fans. Before the rise of Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, etc, Disney fans would congregate almost exclusively on forums such as this one. We were relatively unnoticed, and Disney had no reason to change their ways of doing business, because what they had been doing for decades worked extremely well. But now, Disney fans use new platforms to discuss the parks, with Twitter becoming the main hub for people to voice their thoughts. Unfortunately, a small group of people that had little understanding of what made the parks great began to grow, and they began to compete with each other for YouTube views, Twitter likes, and Instagram follows. These people often fight to be the first to purchase the newest popcorn buckets, review the newest cupcake flavor, or experience new attractions, without fully enjoying the experience because they are standing behind a smartphone camera and posting their location on the internet in real time for bragging rights.

So what is wrong with this?

The problem with these people is that they are far too often very soft when it comes to criticising Disney, and many of them glorify every single thing with the Disney name attached. Many of them could be compared to sheep, because they blindly go along with anything Disney does. This has caused Disney to become lazy with things that they paid extremely close attention to in the past, such as theming show buildings. For example, the very first "land" ever built in a Disney park, Main Street USA at Disneyland, was designed so that the buildings theme would be visible from every possible guest view, even outside of the park, whereas now, in the exact same theme park, the newest land, Star Wars: Galaxy's Edge (which qualifies as IP being shoehorned where it does not belong) is only themed from inside the park. Go to the top of the parking garage or the road behind Disneyland, and you will see that Galaxy's Edge is nothing but a facade attached to a warehouse.

Another issue with the new fans is that because they will accept whatever Disney throws their way, Disney knows that they can get away with basically anything, such as dramatic price increases or replacing classic attractions with very little fallout, whereas 20 or 25 years ago, they knew that it would be controversial. They now replace whatever doesn't make enough money for them, and the replacement attractions are typically built with the intent to sell merchandise. Its a win-win in Disney's eyes. They appease their "fans" (the ones that love everything Disney does and will drool over a 2 minute ride replacing an iconic 10 minute ride), and they make money from the general public (the once in a lifetime guests), who generally watch a movie at home, go to WDW and ride the corresponding ride, and take home a souvenir. I'm sure this is why Disney is now considering the removal of the Imagination Pavilion, because as sad as it is, a ride based off of a Pixar movie will sell more toys and shirts than Figment ever will, simply because of marketing.

So what can be done?

The "old style" fans have largely been silenced and pushed out by the new "hip" fans, and I fully expect that to continue. I never thought it would happen to this website, but I have even started to see it here. Those of us that care about preserving iconic experiences and attractions need to push back harder than ever before. We need to use the some of the same tactics that the new fans use, such as purchasing merchandise that is based on classic attractions. We should also be writing to Disney executives voicing our concerns with the current direction, and when we see someone defending a terrible Disney rumor or decision, we should push back and explain to them (politely) that what is happening is wrong and bad for the parks. If we continue to be silenced by the new majority, I can see a day where so many old school Disney experiences are lost that it will be too late.

We still have time. Some things have sadly been lost forever, but we need to focus on preserving what we still have, and the hope is that we can even undo some of the worst offenses someday, such as a removal of Pixar Pier and a triumphant return of Dreamfinder to the Imagination Pavilion.

I still have hope.

Unless you have data to back up that there is a 'new demographic', you're just mad that there are plenty of people who are keeping Disney overcrowded and don't hate the things you hate.

 

[eliza61nyc]

Unless you have data to back up that there is a 'new demographic', you're just mad that there are plenty of people
who are keeping Disney overcrowded and don't hate the things you hate.

Ding ding ding. that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

 

[eliza61nyc]

"I also always admit, I don't do this deep psychological analysis to theme park placement. I can see how frozen ever after clashes with world showcase, but imo the maelstrom ride sucked big time so yeah I'd rather have an new inappropriately place fun ride than something is two days older than christ and boring." I've never heard the phrase "two days older than christ". Certainly there has to be a more appropriate way to make your point without offending those of us who believe.

my bad, lol, I actually got it from one of the nuns who taught me in high school. she had a wicked sense of humor.

 

[eliza61nyc]

Her entire post comes across as incredibly condescending.

LMAO, in case you forgot what lead to this entire thread, you said

I'm starting to generally hate the Disney fanbase. It seems like nowadays fewer people care about what made Disney great compared to just a few years ago, and most people are infatuated with the latest trend. Not to mention the uptick in people that only care about reviewing overpriced cupcakes and buying the newest t shirt. The ignorance among some Disney "fans" regarding issues like JII is just mind blowing as well. This site is probably one of the only places left on the internet where there is still a large amount of the "old style" fans, but sadly I am starting to see some of them leave only to be replaced with the new "hip" crowd.

I guess it's not that surprising that Disney is considering a complete removal, because the people that actually give a crap about this have already mostly given up, making the rest of us a minority. To be honest, I don't know how much longer I'll be interested in Disney myself considering the way things have been going lately. I'm certainly not part of their target audience anymore.

ok so I try not to get into forum "arguments" here's hoping folks can enjoy their wdw vacations, I'mI a dvc member and pretty excited to see the new stuff coming on line and looking forward to another 18 years of great vacations. if they tear down Epcot and rebuild/brand it, I'm sure my family will survive and still love it.

 

[SourcererMark79]

I am not asking this in a combative way I just want your opinion. Do you believe current Disney leadership would green light a project of similar scope and quality when compared to the original EPCOT Center?

I say this knowing that while EPCOT Center in its original incarnation was mind blowing in 1982, but if left untouched, would be an extremely dated relic from the past that would not hold up in 2019. The first time I ever experienced a touch screen and a Skype like system (dinner reservations) was in 1980's EPCOT. It was a display of technology I never knew existed until I experienced it at the theme park. I just cant imagine what EPCOT Center 2019 would be like if the same vision with care for quality were applied today.

Consumers experience and purchase new technology so quickly today, that by the time something got put in there, it would already be yesterday's news.

 

[Goofyernmost]

I am not asking this in a combative way I just want your opinion. Do you believe current Disney leadership would green light a project of similar scope and quality when compared to the original EPCOT Center?

I say this knowing that while EPCOT Center in its original incarnation was mind blowing in 1982, but if left untouched, would be an extremely dated relic from the past that would not hold up in 2019. The first time I ever experienced a touch screen and a Skype like system (dinner reservations) was in 1980's EPCOT. It was a display of technology I never knew existed until I experienced it at the theme park. I just cant imagine what EPCOT Center 2019 would be like if the same vision with care for quality were applied today.

If they did, they should all be fired. EPCOT was unique and for a while it was a place to see. I can't get into the minds of the public who later decided that no matter how good it was, it wasn't something that they were interested in sitting through. Actual technology surpassed even the lofty goals of EPCOT and a significant number of people just plain didn't want to pay that much (modest compared to now) to go to school while on vacation. It just didn't age well and it couldn't because they simply could not physically keep up with the rapidly changing technology. I think that if you want an equivalent to EPCOT as far as quality and innovation is concerned one has to look no further then SWL. That is reminiscent of the quality of and detail of old. No, the EPCOT philosophy is no longer sell-able, however, sci fy is. It is an IP that no one is complaining about, because the subject is one of interest today. Even the runaway train is a significant uptick in technology. Disney's product is fantasy. EPCOT was reality. Reality has a much shorter shelf life then fantasy.

 

[Sneezy62]

Why are you guys so against IP?

IP can be a great tool if done well. As a kid I loved the book Swiss Family Robinson... one of the first “chapter books” as they call them now...that I ever read. Then I saw the movie. I hated it. The scenes I imagined from the book were nothing like what found its way onscreen. The Treehouse in Adventureland was so much better to my 10 year old way of looking at the world. I could use my imagination while roaming through it. It didn’t detract from either the movie or the book nor did it rewrite either. It allowed a kid to enter the IP without demanding confirmation to the IP. 47 years later I was delighted when my 9, 7, and 5 year old kids who had never heard of the novel or the movie loved climbing through and examining each part of it. They asked what it was for and I told them it was from a book about a family that was shipwrecked all alone on an island and this was where they lived. They loved it and ask dozens of questions about a family they never even saw represented. Two trips through!

I wonder if GotG will get a retheme in the next 47 years?

 

[Fox&Hound]

To address some of the initial points of this post, I think Disney still builds quality attractions: Carsland, Pandora, Mystic Manor, Pirates (Shanghai) and still prove they are at the top of the market. But I think Potter at Universal and the way we digest media has changed things. Brand recognition is everywhere and yes, I do think the "average" Disney guest, for better or worse, wants to see Disney's recognizable characters (Animated classics, Frozen, Marvel, Star Wars) when they enter each of their parks. I would love to see Disney continue to build "new" ideas not tied to IP but it is so much easier for Disney to sell "ride this new ride that is similar to your latest movie experience" or "meet this new beloved character" than a ride or experience not tied to those things. I don't blame the customers though. Blame the world and how we consume media and value brands....

 

[Oddysey]

Consumers experience and purchase new technology so quickly today, that by the time something got put in there, it would already be yesterday's news.

If they did, they should all be fired. EPCOT was unique and for a while it was a place to see. I can't get into the minds of the public who later decided that no matter how good it was, it wasn't something that they were interested in sitting through. Actual technology surpassed even the lofty goals of EPCOT and a significant number of people just plain didn't want to pay that much (modest compared to now) to go to school while on vacation. It just didn't age well and it couldn't because they simply could not physically keep up with the rapidly changing technology. I think that if you want an equivalent to EPCOT as far as quality and innovation is concerned one has to look no further then SWL. That is reminiscent of the quality of and detail of old. No, the EPCOT philosophy is no longer sell-able, however, sci fy is. It is an IP that no one is complaining about, because the subject is one of interest today. Even the runaway train is a significant uptick in technology. Disney's product it fantasy. EPCOT was reality. Reality has a much shorter shelf life then fantasy.

Agreed on both accounts. From a business perspective, EPCOT Center 2019 simply does not work due to the ever increasing rate technological change. I am not even sure that EPCOT Center as an ideal holds up anymore as many views of the future of technology seem to be more dystopian in nature. I recall in the 80s there was much more optimism with respect to what technology could eventually accomplish to make our lives easier and more efficient. At that time it was difficult to see the negative consequences of the technologies to come without testing them in every day life as we do today. Consequences such as increasing depression, isolation, dependence on tech, increasing polarization due to the anonymity associated with "trolling" or "bullying" safely behind a keyboard, and the inability to truly disconnect, etc. etc. Tech has made our lives more comfortable and efficient in some ways, but it has also come with unintended consequences and unexpected costs.

My original question was, do you believe Disney would green light anything similar to the quality and scope to the original EPCOT Center? It does not mean it has to be a park about technology, just similar in ambition in the way that EPCOT Center pushed the boundaries of what was thought to be possible in a theme park. I can see where the my question got lost when I started rambling about EPCOT Center 2019. My apologies for the ramble. It was mostly a result of nonsensical daydreaming.

 

[donaldtoo]

This is a thread that needed to be made. Now hopefully it doesn't get trashed by the same people you referenced trying to shove "Change is Good" and "Nothing is sacred" down our throats.

It doesn’t matter what we think, and never has these days...Disney will do what it thinks is best for itself and not the guests, because no matter what they do, guests keep flocking in droves...easy money, no matter what their decisions are, because for so many, well, it’s Disney, and that’s all that matters.
Myself and my family, on the other hand, will be cruising (and definitely not on the waaayyyyyyy overpriced DCL just to get a Mouse siting) next year, and then going to the REAL Europe the following year.
No cut against those that love Disney Parks, but, my eyes have definitely been opened by traveling to other parts of the world...!!!!!!!
WDW is what it is, but there’s a whole other WORLD out there...!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[LittleBuford]

And where exactly was I disrespectful or condescending? I think frustrated might be the word you are looking for.

Stating facts isn't condescending. If you don't want to accept the reality of what is really going on, feel free to put me on ignore, because I will not be silenced the same way others have been. I really miss @WDW1974 because I'm sure he could have explained this better than I ever could, but sadly it looks like he has been one of the people drowned out by the new wave of fans.

I don't think you're being deliberately condescending, but I do think you're pushing your personal viewpoint as if it's some sort of objective truth. Ultimately, it's all subjective. Some people detest the current direction of the parks, some welcome it, and some (like me) are happy to experience new things while remembering the older model fondly. You refer to a new wave of fans, but I've been going to the parks for nearly thirty years (since before you were born!), yet I'm much less bothered by the changes than you are. It's not a generational thing, but a matter of taste. And so while I admire and respect your passion, I think it's worth noting that you can't "educate" people to come around to your way of thinking, especially when the topic at hand really boils down to personal feelings.

 

[SourcererMark79]

Agreed on both accounts. From a business perspective, EPCOT Center 2019 simply does not work due to the ever increasing rate technological change. I am not even sure that EPCOT Center as an ideal holds up anymore as many views of the future of technology seem to be more dystopian in nature. I recall in the 80s there was much more optimism with respect to what technology could eventually accomplish to make our lives easier and more efficient. At that time it was difficult to see the negative consequences of the technologies to come without testing them in every day life as we do today. Consequences such as increasing depression, isolation, dependence on tech, increasing polarization due to the anonymity associated with "trolling" or "bullying" safely behind a keyboard, and the inability to truly disconnect, etc. etc. Tech has made our lives more comfortable and efficient in some ways, but it has also come with unintended consequences and unexpected costs.

My original question was, do you believe Disney would green light anything similar to the quality and scope to the original EPCOT Center? It does not mean it has to be a park about technology, just similar in ambition in the way that EPCOT Center pushed the boundaries of what was thought to be possible in a theme park. I can see where the my question got lost when I started rambling about EPCOT Center 2019. My apologies for the ramble. It was mostly a result of nonsensical daydreaming.

It would be nice to see something like what you mentioned, but it's a hard sell to the pocketbook. Kids want to be entertained, not walk through a museum. The only way I see it is to integrate IP into that edutainment like figment, only richer with content.