Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[LittleBuford]

Saying it is a personal choice that should be respected isn’t being OK with the decision?

I’m not the one saying that, though, nor is it how I feel. I’m not OK with someone choosing to remain unvaccinated, but neither do I think that that person should be denied care if they need it. These are not irreconcilable positions.

 

[DisneyCane]

By his own telling, he has been working with COVID patients throughout the pandemic. Vaccines have been available to British health workers for over a year now. He said he had COVID “at some point” and has never had the vaccine. Natural antibodies don’t last more than about six months, which means he’s happily spent the rest of the time needlessly unvaccinated. He can’t very well invoke the transmissibility of Omicron as his excuse, as that doesn’t explain why he refused to get vaccinated before the new variant reared its head just a few months ago. So no, he isn’t following the science or doing anything remotely sensible.

I love how people state unequivocal facts that they have no way of knowing. My Mom's primary care doctor had COVID in April 2020. When the vaccines were first made available in December 2020, he had his antibodies tested and the test was positive. He decided not to get vaccinated while the supply was constrained so that he didn't use a dose that somebody else needed. He continued to regularly be tested for antibodies and was still positive in April 2021. He got vaccinated shortly thereafter when supply was no longer an issue.

Stating that natural antibodies don't last more than about six months is 100% false in at least some cases. How do you know the guy in the video wasn't tested for antibodies the day before?

 

[sullyinMT]

According to CDC data, 86% of the 18+ population has at least one dose and 73.1% are fully vaccinated. Assuming there's an over count of the former and an undercount of the latter it's probably more like 78% are fully vaccinated and 82% have at least one dose.

Considering that most of the holdouts tend to be in more rural states, what percentage of adults on aircraft on any given day do you really think are unvaccinated? I'd guess that it is pretty low, in the single digits.

If there was a vaccine requirement, most of those would just travel via a method that doesn't have a vaccine requirement so what will the requirement really accomplish?

All good points. And ones I’ve previously thought about and forgot when I responded.

In the major hubs, yes. I’d be willing to bet at any of the “feeder” airports around me the count is probably closer to 75% at best. So it goes to “every little bit helps.”

And yes, there will be inter-vaccinated spread. Some presymptomatic passenger will schlep the virus with them. But I’m trying to come up with some compromise that leaves air travel open and doesn’t decimate that aspect of the economy.

The world isn’t binary. People can and will travel by road trip. But they won’t be as far from home (on average) that way. And when they get where they’re going they won’t be as likely to take medical resources from the locals.

If the argument is close travel because the vaccinated spread, then everything needs to close. Everything. Including medical care unless you’re going to lock all of us caregivers in the hospitals and clinics, away from our families, for a given time until no one tests positive.

It’s okay to live outside of black and white, in the gray. And I’m not in DC or Helena; I’m open to suggestions that keep things open while minimizing impact.

 

[Ayla]

I like how you put words in my mouth.

A friendly word of advice - don't take the bait. Ignore and starve posters of the oxygen they desperately want.

 

[hopemax]

Worked for one today, a surgeon. He’s full on conspiracy theorist and its very difficult to work with him and listen at times. They’re out there, even if in small numbers.

I’ve mentioned “caps” out of heated frustration more than anything in the past. Realizing that care wouldn’t be denied anyone, sometimes the overworked and overtaxed vent in ways that aren’t fully what they (I) mean.

I have an honest question, though. How can we be ok and patient with those that overtax our healthcare system and society? How are their actions any more ethical than some attempt at triage (or at least admitting what their actions are doing) so that some modicum of capacity is reserved for the victim of a DUI, or stroke, or other reasons that ED’s are filled? My son has recurring kidney stones that we’re slowly figuring out with a lot of trial and error (it goes way beyond dehydration and simple diet change). Should one of those require lithotripsy during a wave, should he be pushed back and risk pyelonephritis or worse because people are free to do whatever?

Sorry for the rant if it comes across that way. Because it’s a real struggle in my brain to remain patient with individual people and angry at the situation they collectively perpetuate.

Medical ethics has been the subject of many a debate long before pandemic. We have not adopted a standard where virtue counts more than medical need. Prisoners and undocumented immigrants do not go to the back of the line. Remember all the outrage about Death Panels. If we let the fog of war change who we are there is no "if the system breaks" it is already broken. No one promised that these decisions would be easy or without emotionally distress, which is why the standards of care are built to take the emotion, prejudices, judgement, etc. out of the decision making process.

I also do not think it will help health care professionals, who more acutely understand the process of a COVID death than any of us, to know that the unvaccinated are dying at home rather than in the hospital. It won't be out of sight out of mind for them. This is what was described in an earlier article I read about what is causing people to leave healthcare. Turning patients away who are likely going to die excrutiatingly doesn't fix the problem, it exacerbates it.

"Some call this burnout, but Gerard Brogan, the director of nursing practice at National Nurses United, dislikes the term because “it implies a lack of character,” he told me. He prefers moral distress—the anguish of being unable to take the course of action that you know is right.

Health-care workers aren't quitting because they can’t handle their jobs. They’re quitting because they can’t handle being unable to do their jobs. Even before COVID-19, many of them struggled to bridge the gap between the noble ideals of their profession and the realities of its business. The pandemic simply pushed them past the limits of that compromise."

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

I’m open to suggestions that keep things open while minimizing impact.

What’s a good example of that? Disney World? Las Vegas? New York City? San Francisco? Branson?

 

[sullyinMT]

I’m not the one saying that, though, nor is it how I feel. I’m not OK with someone choosing to remain unvaccinated, but neither do I think that that person should be denied care if they need it. These are not irreconcilable positions.

They aren’t until they are.

Multiple locales have gone in and out of crisis standards of care. We can’t deny the anxiety and burnout that causes to a group of people who have devoted our lives to helping heal society’s ailments. And what it has done to lives that wouldn’t have been otherwise affected if their neighbors had done a simple thing, 2-3 times, for a half hour each. I know you know this, but it is simply frustrating.

Don’t worry, “healthcare” will still be here when you (general you) need us. But we’re human, and we run through emotions, too. That said, I still love what I do and wouldn’t change it for the world.

 

[sullyinMT]

What’s a good example of that? Disney World? Las Vegas? New York City? San Francisco? Branson?

The Australian Open. Australia may have been super tight for a long time. Beyond what we’d accept as Americans. But the Open will have capacity crowds even in the face of a new wave. Hospitalizations are way up, but ICU capacity remains. So they continue with vaccine passports and protocols, now trying to balance economy and public health.

 

[LittleBuford]

How do you know the guy in the video wasn't tested for antibodies the day before?

Because he was involved in a rather lengthy exchange with the minister in which he didn't give any specifics, even when the minister brought up the fact that his antibodies would wane at some point. I may be guilty of making assumptions, but so are you.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

The Australian Open. Australia may have been super tight for a long time. Beyond what we’d accept as Americans. But the Open will have capacity crowds even in the face of a new wave. Hospitalizations are way up, but ICU capacity remains. So they continue with vaccine passports and protocols, now trying to balance economy and public health.

I don’t follow... isn’t that the same as broadway shows?

 

[correcaminos]

Because he was involved in a rather lengthy exchange with the minister in which he didn't give any specifics, even when the minister brought up the fact that his antibodies would wane at some point. I may be guilty of making assumptions, but so are you.

Let's not forget that antibody tests really don't show a whole picture too. Some people really want to justify poor choices.

4.5 hours post shot and kid was only reporting a slightly sore arm with a few positions. Gave him ipuforben and went to bed. Mostly because I'm cold and tired (I suck as a lifelong midwesterner). He can stay up reading if he likes lol.

 

[sullyinMT]

I don’t follow... isn’t that the same as broadway shows?

On paper, yes. But if they’re willing to block out the #1 male in the world, I’m guessing Melbourne is a little more strict. Also, Australia has similar restrictions nationwide as opposed to our patchwork. And a federally recognized digital passport standard.

 

[Nubs70]

I don’t follow... isn’t that the same as broadway shows?

Without a roof.

 

[LittleBuford]

They aren’t until they are.

Multiple locales have gone in and out of crisis standards of care. We can’t deny the anxiety and burnout that causes to a group of people who have devoted our lives to helping heal society’s ailments. And what it has done to lives that wouldn’t have been otherwise affected if their neighbors had done a simple thing, 2-3 times, for a half hour each. I know you know this, but it is simply frustrating.

Don’t worry, “healthcare” will still be here when you (general you) need us. But we’re human, and we run through emotions, too. That said, I still love what I do and wouldn’t change it for the world.

I'm not talking about denying healthcare providers their right to feel angry and frustrated. I can't imagine what those on the frontline are going through or feeling. We can all be forgiven for harbouring less-than-kind sentiments sometimes, especially when those we are trying to help are needlessly making things more difficult for us.

My point has to do with the principles that society should follow (not that any of us here really has much influence in that regard). All I'm really saying is that I would hate to live in a society that denied medical care to those deemed to have made reckless decisions, and I'm glad I don't. So no, I don't believe the two positions I outlined are irreconcilable. If I can make a rather crude and extreme analogy, I am utterly opposed to the death penalty, even though I recognise that I personally might feel differently should someone commit a capital offence against a person I love (God forbid).

 

[sullyinMT]

I'm not talking about denying healthcare providers their right to feel angry and frustrated. I can't imagine what those on the frontline are going through or feeling. We can all be forgiven for harbouring less-than-kind sentiments sometimes, especially when those we are trying to help are needlessly making things more difficult for us.

My point has to do with the principles that society should follow (not that any of us here really has much influence in that regard). All I'm really saying is that I would hate to live in a society that denied medical care to those deemed to have made reckless decisions, and I'm glad I don't. So no, I don't believe the two positions I outlined are irreconcilable. If I can make a rather crude and extreme analogy, I am utterly opposed to the death penalty, even though I recognise that I personally might feel differently should someone commit a capital offence against a person I love (God forbid).

Thank you for the kind thoughts. Even though you’re a stranger on another keyboard, it means a lot after today.

As I’ve left the organized religion that helped my parents raise me, I’ve changed my stance on the death penalty to mirror yours. I used to be very “eye for an eye” about it all. But, like you (I gather), Grisham’s A Time to Kill mildly resonates as a father at a base level.

I’ve seen finite resources rationed often. Especially organ donation and very advanced support devices. And compliance goes a long way to even be listed as an organ recipient. But that doesn’t mean I would ever be in favor of outright denying some base level of care and compassion once I’ve taken a few deep breaths.

Another crude example. My wife (a nurse) and I will often joke as non helmet wearing motorcyclists race by, “not it when you crash.” Of course, I’d be first to stop if it actually happened. The fool’s decision doesn’t need to be passed to their family without an effort in their behalf. And, if a motorist were to ever hit me on my bicycle I’d want the Karma to be in my favor (even if they’re cussing me out the whole time).

 

[LittleBuford]

Thank you for the kind thoughts. Even though you’re a stranger on another keyboard, it means a lot after today.

As I’ve left the organized religion that helped my parents raise me, I’ve changed my stance on the death penalty to mirror yours. I used to be very “eye for an eye” about it all.

I’ve seen finite resources rationed often. Especially organ donation and very advanced support devices. And compliance goes a long way to even be listed as an organ recipient. But that doesn’t mean I would ever be in favor of outright denying some base level of care and compassion once I’ve taken a few deep breaths.

Another crude example. My wife (a nurse) and I will often joke as non helmet wearing motorcyclists race by, “not it when you crash.” Of course, I’d be first to stop if it actually happened. The fool’s decision doesn’t need to be passed to their family without an effort in their behalf. And, if a motorist were to ever hit me on my bicycle I’d want the Karma to be in my favor (even if they’re cussing me out the whole time).

Thanks for such a candid and thoughtful response. I'm truly in awe of the kind of work you and your wife do, not to mention profoundly grateful.

And not to get too corny, but anonymous keyboard exchanges can be very heartening when they go right, which they ought to do more often. Your kind words have brightened up what's been a rather stressful day.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Another good point actually. It’s more akin to whatever stadium the Jets and Giants are sharing these days, if vaccines are required there (I’m not a big NFL guy). Or Yankee Stadium/Citi Field.

Without a roof.

Ok... so you don’t think broadway shows should be running?

 

[Jrb1979]

Fortunately, we have the capacity that we do. Other countries are not so fortunate, including western ones.

Hence why restrictions are put in place in a lot of Canada. It's not due to lack of beds but lack of nurses as well.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

Let's not forget that antibody tests really don't show a whole picture too. Some people really want to justify poor choices.

4.5 hours post shot and kid was only reporting a slightly sore arm with a few positions. Gave him ipuforben and went to bed. Mostly because I'm cold and tired (I suck as a lifelong midwesterner). He can stay up reading if he likes lol.

I’ve been reading a lot about the immune system in regards to how long immunity lasts and it’s very complex also. Active antibodies (the waning ones that worry us) prevent illness by overpowering it. It’s like a battle, if they outnumber the Virus they win, if the Virus outnumber them they lose and we get sick.

I’ve read reports that hypothesize that repeated exposure can keep levels elevated but that hasn’t been proven. I’ve also read about a thing called cell exhaustion that prevents us from making them indefinitely even if we’re constantly exposed.

The side that will ultimately offer long term protection are memory T-cells and memory B-cells, these are cells that survived the battle and change from active cells that fight the virus to dormant cells that remember how to fight the virus. They generally last until we die. Because they are dormant they don’t fight off new virus as they enter the body, they just remember how to fight them, so they don’t prevent you from getting sick, they just allow your immune system to quickly ramp up the specific cells needed to fight the virus after your sick.

The focus is currently on vaccines and boosters to maintain high active antibodies because that’s what prevents illness (because the virus is everywhere) but once the pandemic is controlled and we aren’t being exposed constantly we won’t need to maintain high active cell counts and can rely on our memory cells for the occasional exposure to it. (Or a yearly shot like the flu shot that increases active cells for a specific amount of time when we expect a lot of exposure to a virus again).

Just a waiting game now. We need to maintain active cells until the virus dies down, then we won’t need to worry about how many shots we’ll need or how frequent, it’ll likely be a yearly booster at most.

 

[mkt]

Fortunately, we have the capacity that we do. Other countries are not so fortunate, including western ones.

But it's not equally distributed across the country. Some areas are effectively healthcare deserts.