Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[GoofGoof]

Just trying to follow the logic. It was stated that any third party that does or wants to do business with the federal govt is also impacted by the mandate. But if that third party works for Congress or a congressional office - they too would have an exemption? Correct?

It’s not really an exemption. The President cannot mandate vaccines for employees not under his chain of command. It would be like if the head of the Navy mandated vaccines for all military personnel who roll up under him and then saying why is there an exemption for Army Rangers or Air force pilots.

As far as third parties, yes, any contractor who does work for Department of Defense or the Justice Department or Homeland Security or any other department that rolls up under the executive branch is included. Any who work for a department outside of the executive branch are not.

 

[bpiper]

I definitely see what you're saying. I suppose I tend to draw a distinction between intentional trolling (which, thankfully, doesn't happen too much here) and behaviour that comes across as trolling even though the poster is sincere. It's not always easy or possible to distinguish the one from the other, but I do think the T-word gets thrown around a little too often on these boards when all we really mean is that we don't like someone's views or posting style.

I think the goodness in you, seeing the positive side of people and wanting to help them is possibly clouding your observations of human behavior.
I am all for helping people who have questions or are confused and need a clarification or pointed in the right direction, but the poster's action were not that.
On the other hand, I have seen too many a-holes out there. Some I worked for, some I worked with. One is my BIL. Maybe I just automatically look for certain behavior/traits, but I seem to have gotten good at it.
I can spot a pathological liar at 300' thanks to by BIL. They all have tells... Find the tell, find the lie.

Yes, I agree, just because someone has a different opinion than yours, doesn't make them a troll. Anyone voicing their opinion and is willing to back it up by explaining, isn't a troll. I may consider them wrong, other's may consider them right. That makes an interesting discussion board and life. Who knows, opinions can be changed. Mine have over time and good arguments.

 

["El Gran Magnifico"]

The President cannot mandate vaccines for employees not under his chain of command.

And therein lies the problem.

 

[GoofGoof]

And therein lies the problem.

What problem? He has mandated vaccines for employees he controls. OSHA has jurisdiction over most private employers and they will have their own rule in place. OSHA isn’t mandating the vaccine they are requiring weekly testing with an option to get vaccinated instead. State government workers or anyone unemployed is not covered by OSHA.

 

["El Gran Magnifico"]

What problem? He has mandated vaccines for employees he controls. OSHA has jurisdiction over most private employers and they will have their own rule in place. OSHA isn’t mandating the vaccine they are requiring weekly testing with an option to get vaccinated instead. State government workers or anyone unemployed is not covered by OSHA.

That would be okay if not for his COS Klain basically retweeting that he’s using OSHA as a way to circumvent things. IMO that is going to come back to bite.

 

[bpiper]

What about their staff?

Of the two branches? Nope, they are in the branch he doesn't lead. Only OPM as the government's HR can give them rules to follow but that is limited too.
The speaker of the house heads the legislative branch. They set the general rules for the legislature and the head's of the two chambers set chamber specific rules.
That is why the speaker is third in line of succession.

Worried about being mandated?

 

[Bullseye1967]

Congress is the legislative branch and the courts are the Judicial branch of government. The president can only make executive orders for the executive branch that he heads. Separation of powers.

That being said, a lot of laws that are passed have an exemption in them so that they don't apply to congress....

The staff work for the congressman so not part of the executive branch either. Think of the President as the CEO for the executive branch of the Federal Government. He can mandate vaccines for all the employees in all of the departments he has control over (think of all the departments that covers….it’s a ton of people). He cannot mandate vaccines for workers not under his control. There is no exemption for Congress or exemption for the USPS since neither are under his control.

I explained the USPS thing earlier, but here goes again. The Postal Service was made an independent entity outside of the domain of the Federal government. There is still a great deal of oversight from the government but they aren’t considered Federal employees that the President controls. Because of this they are not covered under the mandate to vaccinate Federal employees. However, they are covered by OSHA so they will be under the same rule revolving around weekly testing or vaccination. So there is no conspiracy or exceptions being made. Just a lot of hype.

But wouldn't Congress fall under OSHA regulations?

 

["El Gran Magnifico"]

Of the two branches? Nope, they are in the branch he doesn't lead. Only OPM as the government's HR can give them rules to follow but that is limited too.
The speaker of the house heads the legislative branch. They set the general rules for the legislature and the head's of the two chambers set chamber specific rules.
That is why the speaker is third in line of succession.

Worried about being mandated?

I may already be in compliance. But I am worried about mandates by the govt on anything. Luckily this will be struck down pretty quickly.

 

[Shellyl64]

I think the goodness in you, seeing the positive side of people and wanting to help them is possibly clouding your observations of human behavior.
I am all for helping people who have questions or are confused and need a clarification or pointed in the right direction, but the poster's action were not that.
On the other hand, I have seen too many a-holes out there. Some I worked for, some I worked with. One is my BIL. Maybe I just automatically look for certain behavior/traits, but I seem to have gotten good at it.
I can spot a pathological liar at 300' thanks to by BIL. They all have tells... Find the tell, find the lie.

Yes, I agree, just because someone has a different opinion than yours, doesn't make them a troll. Anyone voicing their opinion and is willing to back it up by explaining, isn't a troll. I may consider them wrong, other's may consider them right. That makes an interesting discussion board and life. Who knows, opinions can be changed. Mine have over time and good arguments.

Just for the record, I may have come off wrong from the start but I have read this board and others on here for several months and did not want to ask any questions because I feared I would be attacked because of my vaccine status. I wanted to ask questions about the vaccine because I truly wanted answers but I saw others getting some brutal answers and I was just amazed that some people responded the way they did. Like I said before in another post that I truly am sorry because I did not mean any harm and I am truly trying to deactivate my account. I have had a horrible time dealing with all of this and had some real emotional problems over the whole thing in many areas. My apology is sincere to anyone I upset.

 

[GoofGoof]

But wouldn't Congress fall under OSHA regulations?

OSHA covers private sector workers mostly.

 

[bpiper]

But wouldn't Congress fall under OSHA regulations?

Nope, congress is explicitly excluded in the act that created OSHA. FIOA too.
Each federal agency too. Each agency is responsible for creating their own rules and adhering to them for workplace safety.

 

["El Gran Magnifico"]

OSHA covers private sector workers mostly.

But it covers USPS workers who are federal. Who writes these things?

Not trying to argue. It’s just amazing to me how politics works.

 

[JoeCamel]

I may already be in compliance. But I am worried about mandates by the govt on anything. Luckily this will be struck down pretty quickly.

Every constitutional scholar that showed up on local and network not cable I don't watch those has weighed in on this passing muster. I tend to agree that the exigent circumstances allow OHSA to proceed.

 

[JoeCamel]

But it covers USPS workers who are federal. Who writes these things?

No, they are not. Just ask one

 

["El Gran Magnifico"]

Every constitutional scholar that showed up on local and network not cable I don't watch those has weighed in on this passing muster. I tend to agree that the exigent circumstances allow OHSA to proceed.

The thing with “experts” is - you can always find those to align to your point of view.

 

[bpiper]

But it covers USPS workers who are federal. Who writes these things?

Not trying to argue. It’s just amazing to me how politics works.

It would not have covered them when they were a federal agency. They would have their own internal OSHA equivalent.
Probably when they were de-agenticized, they were required to jettison their own and use OSHA itself.

After working for 15 years in the private world, moving to the federal government world was the most eye opening thing I ever witnessed. Suddenly it all clicked.

The problem with the USPS is that when they were jettisoned, congress just couldn't give up total control..... Once a puppet master, always a puppet master.

 

[JoeCamel]

The thing with “experts” is - you can always find those to align to your point of view.

This was a wide range of programs, if they picked them then I would think they aligned with their view but most were just stating plain logic not reaching to make an outcome.

 

[GoofGoof]

But it covers USPS workers who are federal. Who writes these things?

Not trying to argue. It’s just amazing to me how politics works.

I clipped this from a Google search:

In 1970, the U.S. Post Office Department became the U.S. Postal Service, a government owned corporation. Postal employees, who were Federal employees up to that point became employees of the USPS. They were no longer Federal employees, though they are often treated as such, and since the USPS is still controlled by the Federal government, the Congress still controls much of what they do, such as their pay—to some extent negotiated by employee unions. So they often are seen as Federal employees, but in fact, they are not. They are certainly held to Federal law regulating the USPS, but not in the same way as, say, a Treasury or DHS employee.

 

[GoofGoof]

It would not have covered them when they were a federal agency. They would have their own internal OSHA equivalent.
Probably when they were de-agenticized, they were required to jettison their own and use OSHA itself.

After working for 15 years in the private world, moving to the federal government world was the most eye opening thing I ever witnessed. Suddenly it all clicked.

The problem with the USPS is that when they were jettisoned, congress just couldn't give up total control..... Once a puppet master, always a puppet master.

They never gave up control because USPS was allowed to continue as a monopoly. This is similar to regulated utilities that are monopolies. In order to avoid price manipulation due to lack of competition there is government oversight. In the case of utilities its the Public Utility Commission. So to continue that analogy a worker for Florida Power and Light is not a Florida state employee but the company is subject to oversight by the public utility commission.

 

["El Gran Magnifico"]

I clipped this from a Google search:

In 1970, the U.S. Post Office Department became the U.S. Postal Service, a government owned corporation. Postal employees, who were Federal employees up to that point became employees of the USPS. They were no longer Federal employees, though they are often treated as such, and since the USPS is still controlled by the Federal government, the Congress still controls much of what they do, such as their pay—to some extent negotiated by employee unions. So they often are seen as Federal employees, but in fact, they are not. They are certainly held to Federal law regulating the USPS, but not in the same way as, say, a Treasury or DHS employee.

Fair enough. My problem isn’t with the vaccine. It’s with the mandate.

If someone told me- “Here, take two shots and protect yourself”. Okay. Seems reasonable

But if somebody is telling me “Hey, take a few shots - cause I’m going to force you to”. My first response. Ok. Well, my second response would be “Okay, how many?” To which the reply right now is - “not sure”.