Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

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FormerMember

Well-Known Member
Surprised that you have this opinion is not an emotion I'm experiencing right now.



I live in a state. Where mask wearing is considered by many to be un-American. Over the winter though, people had to wear their masks when they went out to stores, etc. It was mandated. Businesses required them and many still do even though the mandate has been lifted. A couple of weeks ago I went out with my wife and many people were still walking around with masks at an outdoor mall even though the mandate has been lifted and there were no rules saying they had to.

The reality is you go to the grocery store, the doctor's office, etc. and you are not having face-to-face interactions with dozens of people. It's not difficult to understand why flu hospitalizations have dropped significantly this year.
No need to be snarky. I am being polite.

I didn't realize you meant stores and such. I thought you were saying people were still staying away from other people. Got it now. Here in NJ, there is very much mask wearing. VERY MUCH. A girl just walked past my business walking her dog, alone, in a mask for example.
 

SorcererMC

Well-Known Member
Herd immunity is herd immunity.
The numbers that dictate that don't change.
Patently false.
For every cluster in every state, territory and tribal area:
-what percentage of the population are helping to prevent the spread by masking and physical distancing.
-what are the underlying health conditions and age demographics of the population
-what percentage of the population is vaccinated
-what is the overlap of the vaccinated population's geographic distribution with known and unknown community spread
-what percentage has natural immunity and is it possible to know that number,
-what percentage of the population has vaccine hesitancy and how do we know that number

And then, how do each of those sub-populations interact with one another on a daily and weekly basis during the estimated window of transmission and incubation.
 

DavidNoble

Well-Known Member
No need to be snarky. I am being polite.

I didn't realize you meant stores and such. I thought you were saying people were still staying away from other people. Got it now. Here in NJ, there is very much mask wearing. VERY MUCH. A girl just walked past my business walking her dog, alone, in a mask for example.

Then there is no need to assign intent to someone simply because you don't agree with them like you did with Fauci and those who follow his news and recommendations seriously.

I would imagine for most people, their main form of interaction with people is at stores/office/etc. outside of their own family. Obviously most of us have friends we see, but typically we're not seeing them everyday and I know many people have limited their social interactions with friends simply to be safe. I imagine there will be many parties celebrating (possibly already happening when a group of friends are fully vaccinated) reunions and I personally can't wait.
 

ImperfectPixie

Well-Known Member
Right now only the hospital is offering the pfizer, no school clinics. Also mandatory statewide students testing is April 19th-May 21st. This includes the mandatory tests for kids just to graduate, not the best time to pull them out of school.
Right now my employer only gives us time off for vaccinating ourselves, not our children. And since they have did away with "flex time" last year, I can't leave and make up the hours. That's been a pain enough trying to make general health, eye, dentist appointments after work and school. Not everyone has the flexibility.
And that's long been a problem in the US. There needs to be flexibility for good work/life balance - happy employees are more productive employees (in the majority of cases...there will always be bad apples). I wish businesses would get with the program.
 

Patcheslee

Well-Known Member
Please take this with the kindness I mean. This is your personal situation, not one all will deal with. I get it will be hard for some, but why punish all by not allowing the minute they approve it? For example our state testing is done. I just have to worry about Frozen production if they open soon.

I feel for your situation truly, I really do. But thinking they won't or shouldn't open asap doesn't help the kids who might be at risk without it as well.
States chose to limit who could receive them up until this past month. I hope they would release to all approved ages but, I'm not 100% certain they will because demand is still there for adults. States repeatedly limited who could get the shots, and at times stated who would be eligible next when change it in the same week.
 

Incomudro

Well-Known Member
It looks like it’s time to once again post credentials of what one of the most amazing contributors to our health in all of our lifetimes has done.
Science doesn’t care what you believe. So when you hear something from a top scientist and it doesn’t go along with your opinions and then start calling the guy a buffoon or worse, the ignore button kicks in and it makes this thread a lot quicker to read.
Science is hard work and it doesn’t come gift wrapped in a box for everyone to see what it is. We are still figuring this latest thing out and will be for years. We rely on science because it’s better then just making things up. So if the answers just don’t make sense.. and one month there’s a answer but the next month it changes.. guess what? That’s science working.



2 links.. find time to read and realize the guy has more talent in his pinkie then we all do put together Z

Dr. Fauci's education and experience are unquestionable.
Unfortunately, his ability to communicate to the general public is questionable.
 

monothingie

Nakatomi Plaza Christmas Eve 1988. Never Forget.
Premium Member
That's not arbitrary. It's based on the known viral-host dynamics of transmission and how people are likely to interact within certain spaces and the size of that space.
Please provide a link to the scientific study that shows a normally occupied Walmart poses less risk than normally occupied Mom & Pop Store.

I'll wait.
 

correcaminos

Well-Known Member
My normal work hours are 6:54am-3:24pm, middle school releases at 3:15pm, high school 3:30pm. But with overtime I've have to work anywhere from 4 hours early to 4 hours over with 24 hours notice. Right now I've been on 2:54am-3:24pm since the beginning of the year. Last year I was stuck working till 7:24pm. If I'm lucky I know if I get the weekend off or stuck working by Thursday.
Again I feel for your situation but no need to restrict all. Many things with covid are not fair nor equal unfortunately.
States chose to limit who could receive them up until this past month. I hope they would release to all approved ages but, I'm not 100% certain they will because demand is still there for adults. States repeatedly limited who could get the shots, and at times stated who would be eligible next when change it in the same week.
Can also be regional within a state. I'm more for giving opportunities to those who need than holding back is all. My state was very uneven with where shots were available which is why I helped so many book. Now I don't need to help anyone really. No need to hold back.
 

mmascari

Well-Known Member
I see a lot of back and forth on the concept of establishing a clear and trackable goal like a percent of the population vaccinated as a trigger to remove restrictions. I see the main resistance is that people are concerned that the target will be reached but it won’t be enough and cases won’t be down enough. I don’t see that as an issue at all. We cannot fear failure at this point and we cannot let that fear hold us back. JFK said we would put a man on the moon and we would do it in 10 years. He wasn’t afraid to say it because there were a million variables that could go wrong that would result in failure. He didn’t fear failure and we achieved the goal within the 10 years.

We need a similar target set for vaccinations. A clear goal and a clear reward for when we reach that goal. We get 70% of the eligible population vaccinated and we can return to normal. Since the states actually set covid restrictions it would be largely a symbolic gesture, but the CDC and the Federal government hold great influence over corporate policy on public health and also on state and local responses. I think it’s our best bet to get more people vaccinated and to ultimately win this battle. If a few months from now it turns out that we have 70% of the eligible people vaccinated and cases are still at 50,000 a day then the government would have to bite the bullet and say they messed up and that the number wasn’t enough. I’d rather see that then have the vaccination process slow because a politician doesn’t want an L in their column. The stakes are too high to play politics. Set the target and then push us over it. From Kennedy’s speech on going to the moon: “We choose to go to the Moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard; because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one we intend to win, and the others, too”.
Notice this wasn't an announcement from NASA. Nobody asked them if going to the moon within 10 years was a good goal. Nobody asked the engineers if that was the target. Nobody asked Grumman if within 10 years was the moon lander goal.

It was a policy goal.

All those other groups, NASA, the engineers, Grumman, all the others that actually did the work to build, plan, execute the moon mission. They all provided advice and guidance. What kinds of resources would be required, what could speed up development, what would slow it down, what their best guests on the possible were. None of that set the goal though. The politicians set the goal and then used that advice to determine what actions were needed to support that goal. They weighed those actions against other uses of those resources for different goals.

Disney doesn't ask the cleaning staff to set a goal for how clean the park should be and how often there should be a garbage can. Leadership set's a goal and the cleaning staff tells them how often there should be a garbage can to meet that goal, what spacing them farther or closer together will do to achieving that goal. Leadership weighs that information against other concerns, such has how the park would look if there was a garbage can every 3 feet, which would certainly make it easier for people to use.

With COVID, the CDC, DHS, FDA, WHO, none of them set policy goals. They all provide advice and guidance to achieve the policy goals set by the elected politicians. I want all those groups to tell us what impacts will shorten, prolong, decrease spread, increase spread, etc, but none of them own defining what is the acceptable level we're willing to just live with.

Everyone who want's a definitive answer, write your congress people, ask the representatives, senators, Biden, state governors to set a goal. Have them use the advice from the other groups to get us to that goal, but ask an elected official what the policy goal should be. It's there job after all. Every time one of them ask the advisor what normal should be, they're ditching their job and trying to get someone else to do it. I would love for an elected politician to come out and say "Here's the goal, we expect a return to normal when XYZ is true. Let's all get vaccinated so we can achieve that goal faster."


Many posters here have shared what their policy goal would be, and most of them are relatively close to each other.


PS: Replying to @GoofGoof since it builds on Kennedy setting a goal, but this is really for all those back and forth comments on "when is it enough", "it will always be here", "we cannot do this forever" posts. We're looking to the wrong people to set the policy.
 

FormerMember

Well-Known Member
No. Work from home has changed my life drastically for the better, not to mention Florida is still having thousands of cases a day
Ah. Ok, you like work from home. Are you vaccinated? I know that's a personal question, but if you are, you shouldn't let those numbers overly concern you.
 

Incomudro

Well-Known Member
Patently false.
For every cluster in every state, territory and tribal area:
-what percentage of the population are helping to prevent the spread by masking and physical distancing.
-what are the underlying health conditions and age demographics of the population
-what percentage of the population is vaccinated
-what is the overlap of the vaccinated population's geographic distribution with known and unknown community spread
-what percentage has natural immunity and is it possible to know that number,
-what percentage of the population has vaccine hesitancy and how do we know that number

And then, how do each of those sub-populations interact with one another on a daily and weekly basis during the estimated window of transmission and incubation.


Herd immunity is not reached by numbers that move very much.
It's reached at about 70%.
 

havoc315

Well-Known Member
Herd immunity is herd immunity.
The numbers that dictate that don't change.

That’s not exactly true.

Herd immunity is when there is sufficient immunity (through vaccination and/or natural immunity combined) to avoid any new outbreaks. You can still get an infection introduced, it may spread to a handful of people, but will quickly fizzle out.
That’s herd immunity.

It is not a specific number. The number needed to reach that goal depends on multiple factors:
- The infectiousness of the disease (a disease that transmits more easily will need a higher number)
- THe degree of natural immunity (if 50% of the population already has natural immunity, you wouldn’t need to vaccinate everyone)
-The effectiveness of the vaccine —- 50% of the population vaccinated with a 90% effective vaccine is the same as 90% of the population vaccinated with a 50% effective vaccine
- Human behavior, especially as it affects transmission. If everyone is wearing masks, which reduce transmission, you may reach herd immunity at a lower level than a world without masks

So there are many different factors that feed into the number of vaccinations needed for herd immunity, making it impossible to calculate with any precision.

So it’s not that the numbers change — It’s that the numbers are based on other numbers, and there are many unknowns.
So the actual number necessary to reach herd immunity is unknown. We can only roughly estimate based on what is known.
 

havoc315

Well-Known Member
Patently false.
For every cluster in every state, territory and tribal area:
-what percentage of the population are helping to prevent the spread by masking and physical distancing.
-what are the underlying health conditions and age demographics of the population
-what percentage of the population is vaccinated
-what is the overlap of the vaccinated population's geographic distribution with known and unknown community spread
-what percentage has natural immunity and is it possible to know that number,
-what percentage of the population has vaccine hesitancy and how do we know that number

And then, how do each of those sub-populations interact with one another on a daily and weekly basis during the estimated window of transmission and incubation.

That is basically correct, with other factors as well. Such as the transmissibility of dominant variants, the effectiveness of the particular vaccines being used, etc.
 

FormerMember

Well-Known Member
Herd immunity is herd immunity.
The numbers that dictate that don't change.
Do you think we really need herd immunity to get society back? Can't Covid just turn endemic and become another background threat we all learn to deal with? That makes more sense then trying to eradicate a virus before we can go to a Broadway show again, or get people back to offices and work and rebuild those micro-economies. Or maybe I am nuts.
 

Think Tink

Premium Member
In the Parks
No
Ah. Ok, you like work from home. Are you vaccinated? I know that's a personal question, but if you are, you shouldn't let those numbers overly concern you.
In the moment sure. But the longer this carries on with high rates of infection, the more opportunities there are for a variant to come out that is resistant to the vaccine. I’m fully vaccinated and have started going out more, but I do still take precautions because no vaccine is 100%.
 

monothingie

Nakatomi Plaza Christmas Eve 1988. Never Forget.
Premium Member
No thanks. I'll just continue to sit here with my understanding of how viral particles spread within given spaces according to what is known about exposure and transmission.
So no then? You can't explain it or prove it because you "know better".

It's the elitist attitude like that which creates skepticism.
 
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