Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[HarperRose]

Wisconsin is opening up vaccines to everyone 16 and over on April 5th, weeks ahead of schedule. That's great news and we're quickly plugging along on getting shots in arms!

 

[danlb_2000]

You make a good point, and I was more speaking about interpersonal interactions than business ones. Of course, if a business requires masks than I think people, even vaccinated people, should respect that. And I can certainly understand why it would be difficult for a business to require masks only of unvaccinated people since, at least at the moment, there's no practical way they can verify who is vaccinated. But just on a social level, I see no reason for vaccinated people to continue wearing masks, based upon the scientific data that is available now.

That is basically what the CDC has said, except that they are being a little more cautious and saying mitigation should still be done when a vaccinated person is gathering indoors with a high-risk unvaccinated person.

 

[GoofGoof]

Can you tell me where you are finding that under 30 data? not disputing it, just can't seem to get that granular. All I've found is national and only updated through 3/20
View attachment 543672

Not exactly what was talked about because it’s under 45, but in this article which is specifically referencing Orange County they say this:

In Orange County, cases are on the rise among young people. People 45 and younger account for 1 in 3 hospitalizations for COVID, and the average age for new infections has dropped to 30.

So not the whole state and not just under 30, but clearly as the elderly get vaccinated and the younger crowd hasn’t yet the age will skew younger. It’s been a false narrative from day 1 that only the old and very sick are getting seriously ill or hospitalized. That’s never been the real picture. On deaths the numbers did skew much more towards high risk groups. Even though some of those people in the under 45 group who are hospitalized could have had severe health issues, not all of them did.

Cases in Florida, a National COVID Bellwether, Are Rising

Scientists view Florida — the state furthest along in lifting restrictions, reopening society and welcoming tourists — as a bellwether for the nation. If recent trends there are any indication, the rest of the country may be in trouble. The number of confirmed coronavirus cases in Florida has...

news.yahoo.com

 

[HarperRose]

I am about to bang my head against a brick wall over the number of people here who do not want to see restrictions relaxed unless there is 100% protection, zero cases, or some other absolute. Folks, that is unattainable. It will never happen. There will always be a chance you may catch Covid. There will always be a chance you might even die from it. Eliminating that risk is not the point. Getting the risk to a manageable, acceptable level is.

The data shows that once you are vaccinated, the risk of catching, spreading, or having serious complications from Covid drops to virtually zero. No, not absolutely zero. Yes, there's still a slight chance you could get sick or spread it. Yes, there's a slight chance a variant might pop up that beats the vaccine. But it is the closest you can possibly get to complete protection.

Again, my opinion is that if you want vaccines in arms, you have to tell people that they can get vaccinated and then drop the restrictions. Nothing else is going to sell it on the scale we need.

It's easy to understand. Either everyone wears a mask or no one does. There is no in between, like you're proposing. There is absolutely zero chance that will work.

 

[Dan Deesnee]

There's a CNBC story out today that says a CDC study finds about 78% of those hospitalized for covid19 were overweight or obese.
Imagine if we put effort in this society about creating and maintaining a healthy population?
We could have cut covid deaths by a tremendous margin.
We could cut the annual cardiovascular death rates similarly.
People are very selective.

Data also shows that if one takes care of ONESELF than they can greatly reduce the chances of potential harm from OTHER people.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Reducing speed limits protects EVERYONE.

Reducing alcohol sales or eliminating alcohol entirely protects EVERYONE.

Reducing or eliminating horribly unhealthy foods protects EVERYONE (billions are spent researching heart disease, obesity, diabetes, etc.). Just imagine how far we'd be ahead with cancer research alone if that funding could be spent elsewhere, right?

But you see, the people pushing for eternally wearing masks and social distancing must not drink, ever, and never go over the speed limit. I guess. Otherwise their arguments are very narrow and limited and, in turn, don't make complete sense for the reasons I list above.

 

[Jrb1979]

Why? What does that accomplish? As a fully vaccinated person, you do not transmit the virus. There is no benefit to you continuing to engage in those mitigation measures.


If vaccinated people are not only protected from Covid but do not transmit it, then there is no problem with mixing vaccinated and unvaccinated people. Unvaccinated people should, of course, be practicing mitigation measures. But there is no reason for a vaccinated person to do so. Rachel Walensky, the director of the CDC, herself said "Our data from the CDC today suggests that vaccinated people do not carry the virus."

Here are some links:

Coronavirus Disease 2019

CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.

www.cdc.gov

Real world study shows mRNA vaccines protect against symptomatic and asymptomatic infection: CDC

The Moderna and Pfizer vaccines have been shown to prevent both symptomatic and asymptomatic COVID-19, according to a new study.

abcnews.go.com

Pfizer Vaccine Highly Effective at Preventing COVID-19, Study Shows

Data suggest that the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine is effective at preventing asymptomatic and symptomatic COVID-19 in people who are vaccinated against the virus.

www.verywellhealth.com

Covid-19 vaccines may prevent infection and not just symptoms, study suggests

Vaccine trials and distribution have also shed light on inequities in the medical field.

www.kezi.com

The problem is unless you start requiring a vaccine passport, which many here seem to be against, you have no way of separating those are vaccinated vs. those who aren't. Then it come down to having enough people vaccinated so numbers do drop and restrictions are loosened.

IMO I'm all for the vaccine passport if it allows me to travel and get life back to the way things were.

 

[MaryJaneP]

If vaccines are not currently available to most kids, and particularly kids (under 16, even more under 12), how is WDW, which seems aimed at kids, supposed to respond? Especially if studies and vaccines will last likely until December this year.

 

[GoofGoof]

You make a good point, and I was more speaking about interpersonal interactions than business ones. Of course, if a business requires masks than I think people, even vaccinated people, should respect that. And I can certainly understand why it would be difficult for a business to require masks only of unvaccinated people since, at least at the moment, there's no practical way they can verify who is vaccinated. But just on a social level, I see no reason for vaccinated people to continue wearing masks, based upon the scientific data that is available now.

I think once we run out of people that want to be vaccinated I would agree with this completely. We can’t do it now, but once it’s available to anyone who wants it, yes. At a private residence I agree it’s fine even now if you are vaccinated. What we can’t do is relax public restrictions before everyone is vaccinated.

 

[Jrb1979]

If vaccines are not currently available to most kids, and particularly kids (under 16, even more under 12), how is WDW, which seems aimed at kids, supposed to respond? Especially if studies and vaccines will last likely until December this year.

Too bad so sad but that's life. In all honesty kids might have to be tested to get in. It's no different then what's happening on airlines.

 

[Jrb1979]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Reducing speed limits protects EVERYONE.

Reducing alcohol sales or eliminating alcohol entirely protects EVERYONE.

Reducing or eliminating horribly unhealthy foods protects EVERYONE (billions are spent researching heart disease, obesity, diabetes, etc.). Just imagine how far we'd be ahead with cancer research alone if that funding could be spent elsewhere, right?

But you see, the people pushing for eternally wearing masks and social distancing must not drink, ever, and never go over the speed limit. I guess. Otherwise their arguments are very narrow and limited and, in turn, don't make complete sense for the reasons I list above.

Bring in a vaccine passport if you want masks and social distancing to go.

 

[Chi84]

In general I would agree with this, but the idea breaks down when vaccinated and unvaccinated people have to mix, because it would make enforcement of masking to difficult.

Then that’s what they should be saying.

 

[ABQ]

Not exactly what was talked about because it’s under 45, but in this article which is specifically referencing Orange County they say this:

In Orange County, cases are on the rise among young people. People 45 and younger account for 1 in 3 hospitalizations for COVID, and the average age for new infections has dropped to 30.

So not the whole state and not just under 30, but clearly as the elderly get vaccinated and the younger crowd hasn’t yet the age will skew younger. It’s been a false narrative from day 1 that only the old and very sick are getting seriously ill or hospitalized. That’s never been the real picture. On deaths the numbers did skew much more towards high risk groups. Even though some of those people in the under 45 group who are hospitalized could have had severe health issues, not all of them did.

Cases in Florida, a National COVID Bellwether, Are Rising

Scientists view Florida — the state furthest along in lifting restrictions, reopening society and welcoming tourists — as a bellwether for the nation. If recent trends there are any indication, the rest of the country may be in trouble. The number of confirmed coronavirus cases in Florida has...

news.yahoo.com

Makes perfect sense that if the over x age crowd is highly vaccinated that what remains would dominate the scale. I'll wait for the post with today's numbers, but the Times really "timed" that article well as it was the one or two days of the past 3 months where they could claim a FL upward trend. Though they certainly worded it to sound like a skyrocketing event. It may turn out to be so, but tough to claim today.

 

[GhostHost1000]

If vaccines are not currently available to most kids, and particularly kids (under 16, even more under 12), how is WDW, which seems aimed at kids, supposed to respond? Especially if studies and vaccines will last likely until December this year.

disney could require vaccine for 16 and up and fever test kids upon entry. Kids have less risk and symptoms from it and at some point doesn’t it have to be up to the individual and families to decide what they feel safe doing or not. We can’t mask forever because some won’t vaccinate which is what has me worried.

 

[GhostHost1000]

Bring in a vaccine passport if you want masks and social distancing to go.

But it should be up to the business or Disney NOT a government mandate OR a government objection to it

 

[oceanbreeze77]

I'm honestly worried that anti-coronavax is going to cause the rate of unvaccinated children (normal childhood shots) to go up after this, just so people can "stick it" to the other guy. I know the anti-vax community has raged on for years, but most people have common sense to vaccinate their children against those diseases.

 

[Heppenheimer]

Can you cite where you are getting that bolded part? I am not certain but I am pretty sure that is factually wrong. I believe the basic understanding is that NORMALLY they occur within 3 months.

However, we have never developed a vaccine so fast so their is nothing normal about the situation we're in. We are in uncharted territory, basically, with the covid vaccine, like it or not. I don't blame people for being cautious with it.

No, there really is no plausible biological mechanism for a vaccine to somehow cause a side effect that appears de novo months or years down the road. Unlike medications, which are taken continuously and can cause dose-related toxicity through chronic exposures, the actual material of vaccine contents is broken down and completely excreted from the body within days, if not sooner. The lingering influence of the vaccine does not occur because of retained vaccine material, but in the selection of a population of B and T cells that respond specifically to the virus or bacteria in question. Very rarely, an error in the regulation of the immune response can produce B or T cells that react against the person's own cells... basically, an autoimmune response. Because the self-antigens on people's cells don't ever change, once the vaccine induced-immune cells mature (within days to weeks of receiving the vaccine), they will either autoreact soon thereafter or never. Fortunately, autoimmune disease from vaccination is extremely rare, or else vaccination would not be a viable strategy for disease prevention.

Some side effects can linger for years, like the sequelae of Guillan-Barre syndrome, or the exceptionally rare case of polio from the live vaccine (no longer administered in countries where polio is effectively erradicated). But the inciting condition occurs soon after the vaccination.

Just in case I was remembering something wrong, or there's a notable reaction that hadn't come up in my medical education or nearly two decades of practice, including supervision of mass-vaccine distribution in the army, I reviewed some articles from UptoDate and Micromedex (excellent medical reference sites, but both behind paywalls) on various vaccines, such as TDaP, MMR, influenza, meningococcus, HPV and some atypical vaccines that most in the US never receive (typhoid, anthrax, yellow fever). The longest delayed side effect I could find was Guillan-Barre syndrome that is most associated with some varieties of seasonal influenza vaccines (but the disease is far more common after an actual bout of influenza). As I quoted previously, the longest suspected delay of a case of this condition after vaccination was just under three months, although it usually appears much sooner.

Finally, it should be stated once again why we were able to develop the COVID vaccines so quickly:

1) The mRNA technology already existed, and it was very easy to adapt this to the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2.

2) Governments around the world provided up-front funding, thus the pharmaceutical companies didn't need to pause between the research stages to acquire financing for the next stages.

3) The trials reached their predetermined clinical endpoints much faster than expected, mainly because the placebo groups accumulated positive cases very quickly. This is the silver lining in the black cloud of the raging out of control pandemic.

The trials conducted the same standard safety observation periods that any vaccine would receive.

 

[DCBaker]

Numbers are out - there were 91 new reported deaths, along with 1 Non-Florida Resident death.

 

[MaryJaneP]

Own the virus

 

[Dan Deesnee]

No, there really is no plausible biological mechanism for a vaccine to somehow cause a side effect that appears de novo months or years down the road. Unlike medications, which are taken continuously and can cause dose-related toxicity through chronic exposures, the actual material of vaccine contents is broken down and completely excreted from the body within days, if not sooner. The lingering influence of the vaccine does not occur because of retained vaccine material, but in the selection of a population of B and T cells that respond specifically to the virus or bacteria in question. Very rarely, an error in the regulation of the immune response can produce B or T cells that react against the person's own cells... basically, an autoimmune response. Because the self-antigens on people's cells don't ever change, once the vaccine induced-immune cells mature (within days to weeks of receiving the vaccine), they will either autoreact soon thereafter or never. Fortunately, autoimmune disease from vaccination is extremely rare, or else vaccination would not be a viable strategy for disease prevention.

Some side effects can linger for years, like the sequelae of Guillan-Barre syndrome, or the exceptionally rare case of polio from the live vaccine. But the inciting condition occurs soon after the vaccination.

Just in case I was remembering something wrong, or there's a notable reaction that hadn't come up in my medical education or nearly two decades of practice, including supervision of mass-vaccine distribution in the army, I reviewed some articles from UptoDate and Micromedex (excellent medical reference sites, but both behind paywalls) on various vaccines, such as TDaP, MMR, influenza, meningococcus, HPV and some atypical vaccines that most in the US never receive (typhoid, anthrax, yellow fever). The longest delayed side effect I could find was Guillan-Barre syndrome that is most associated with some varieties of seasonal influenza vaccines (but the disease is far more common after an actual bout of influenza). As I quoted previously, the longest suspected delay of a case of this condition after vaccination was just under three months, although it usually appears much sooner.

Finally, it should be stated once again why we were able to develop the COVID vaccines so quickly:

1) The mRNA technology already existed, and it was very easy to adapt this to the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2.

2) Governments around the world provided up-front funding, thus the pharmaceutical companies didn't need to pause between the research stages to acquire financing for the next stages.

3) The trials reached their predetermined clinical endpoints much faster than expected, mainly because the placebo groups accumulated positive cases very quickly. This is the silver lining in the black cloud of the raging out of control pandemic.

The trials conducted the same standard safety observation periods that any vaccine would receive.

Except the mRNA vaccine(s) are the first of it's(their) kind. So to assume we know long term side effects (if any) is presumptuous. First of it's kind can lead to first of it's kind long term problems.

With that knowledge, it shouldn't be shocking that some people are concerned about long term effects of the vaccine.

 

[Armerius]

But it should be up to the business or Disney NOT a government mandate OR a government objection to it

In this kind of situations its either ALL or NONE. so its better if its a government mandate.