Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[havoc315]

It's not selfish to want people to keep their jobs. It's not selfish to be disgusted watching my best friend torn to pieces as her mom died from cancer alone in a hospital room because she wasn't allowed to have visitors. It's not selfish to be furious that dementia patients have been cutoff from their family members without any clue what's going on. It's not selfish to want children to grow up with a normal developmental cadence.

I'm doing just fine. I've been working from home in my sneakers and a t-shirt, I haven't lost a dime of income, and I'm going to be up about $20,000 on stimulus payments I don't need.

Oh and my kids are doing just fine too. Because out here in the white collar neighborhoods, our schools our open and our kids are going to gymnastics and Little League together. It's the poor kids who are getting screwed by this madness.


That would be a relevant counter-point if the population fatality rate of COVID was 40%, and among all age groups.

Your family is only 5 people?!?!?
I have cousins, kids, aunts, uncles, in-laws.

And where I got the number -- 2 members of my family have died from Covid.

So you willing to make the same trade: Willing to give up 2 family members, or rather take 12 months of not being able to go to the movies?

 

[CaptainAmerica]

How about the moral argument that you desire to spend time with your dying relatives could lead to the death of others who may have other wise survived?

I would only risk exposure to other people who have weighed the risks for themselves and also chosen to venture out into the world.

I'm saying ALLOW people to live their normal lives, not FORCE people do live their normal lives.

 

[mattpeto]

I would only risk exposure to other people who have weighed the risks for themselves and also chosen to venture out into the world.

I'm saying ALLOW people to live their normal lives, not FORCE people do live their normal lives.

It's much more macro then that though...

 

[carolina_yankee]

I'm not making a pragmatic argument about "what the governments of the world would have done in such-and-such scenario."

I'm making a moral argument that it's evil to prevent people from visiting their dying relatives regardless of the justification, full stop.

OK - Moral theology is my field. Let's work with this. I've been very troubled by that.

When considering whether or not something is evil, you need to ask if the action is ever justifiable. Then, if yes, you need to ask if the action is justifiable under these conditions. That's why you can't say war is unjust, but you can say that some wars are unjust.

Are there circumstances that would justify preventing a person from visiting a dying relative? What if it were ebola? And there were no protective gear available? Would it be justifiable to allow somebody, unprotected, to go in when doing so would be almost certain infection and probably death? (After all, once they are exposed, you can't let them expose anybody else, so they have to be confined to that room).

Here's the circumstances with the COVID bans on visiting those infected, including the dying:

• At the start, there wasn't enough PPE to protect the visitor. It's still not easy to come by.
• The real risk with COVID is the collapse of the healthcare system - so more people getting sick raises that risk, which affects everybody.
• Transmissibility is still not fully understand, but was definitely not well-understood in the beginning, so there was no way of knowing how one person visiting a dying loved one could potentially put scores or more of other people at risk.
• It's not perfect, but there are alternative means to visitations, including tele-visits. Nothing replaces human touch, but it is a middle ground.
• Nobody hates the no-visitiation more (other than families of dying loved-ones) than health care workers. They are not clamoring for a change in policy.
• The policy will change when it is safe to do so. (Our hospital vaccinated clergy in the first group precisely so they could have people who could visit COVID patents safely.)

My take - if there is a risk of dying isolated and alone from COVID and that risk devastates you - take whatever precautions you can to avoid getting COVID. My husband and I had the conversation that if either of us headed into a hospital with COVID, we would understand that the last time we were physically together could be the last time we were physically together. Not likely, but possible, so we prepared ourselves emotionally and spiritually for that possibility.

Losing a loved-one to COVID and not being able to be with them is sad and tragic. If it is evil, it's an evil caused by the disease itself and not by human policy. Nobody wants this policy. If it were safe to do otherwise, the policy would not be there.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I would only risk exposure to other people who have weighed the risks for themselves and also chosen to venture out into the world.

Except that’s not how the world works. You don’t get to tell someone else not to seek medical treatment because you want to do whatever you decide.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Except that’s not how the world works. You don’t get to tell someone else not to seek medical treatment because you want to do whatever you decide.

If the person needs medical treatment, it's not because of what *I* decided, it's because of what *he or she* decided.

 

[lazyboy97o]

If the person needs medical treatment, it's not because of what *I* decided, it's because of what *he or she* decided.

No. If you are contagious and interact with others you are the one spreading the disease. You sitting in a hospital waiting room, wandering the corridors or anything else visitors do spreading a disease is not because those others made decisions.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

No. If you are contagious and interact with others you are the one spreading the disease. You sitting in a hospital waiting room, wandering the corridors or anything else visitors do spreading a disease is not because those others made decisions.

Those other people are *also present in the hospital waiting room.*

If you lock yourself in your basement, you can't be exposed to a pathogen I picked up in a hospital waiting room.

 

[mmascari]

Look to the Midwest where this is going to happen first, we reached our peak in November and are roughly 6 weeks ahead of the rest of the country in our declining numbers. More specifically in my state, Wisconsin, it’s now been 10 days since we recorded over a thousand new cases in a day and we only have 8,882 active cases

With the trajectory we’re on, those numbers are only going to grow more impressive as time goes on. If the decline continues at this rate, at least in this state, we should be at a point where masks may not be needed by Memorial Day, but that is only if trends hold.

That trend, and the positivity trend, from the Wisconsin dashboard all look great and moving in the right direction.

I disagree with your goal death rate, while it would be great to get that low, that is an unrealistic goal. When we get to typical flu death numbers I will be thrilled and feel we reached our goal.

No I think we as a society have tollerated the flu and that death rate for decades as a price for having society function normally and don’t see a reason to restrict society for another disease if the death rate is comparable.

I think this is a totally fair, and reasonable discussion point. We're not looking to get to 0 or completely gone. But, to a level of community spread that's low enough that it can be managed and the rate of infections (and implications like death and long term issues) is within acceptable limits.

It definitely feels valid for different people to have different opinions on what value is within acceptable limits.

Clearly not the values we're at today nationally. Based on the Wisconsin dashboard, they're closer to an acceptable value than others.

I don't know what that value is, we can compare it to flu deaths, automobile deaths, Alcohol-Impaired Crash Fatalities, Measles cases, or whatever. Different people will have a different ceiling that feels acceptable. I hope we can all at least agree that more than 1,000 deaths a day is to high a number. I'm sure some want it under 10 a day and others are fine with 100, while others could go higher still.

I don’t think anyone begrudges someone choosing to wear a mask, but there will come a time, hopefully soon, when community spread stops and the mandates go away.

To me, this is still the most important point, and it's one that I think experts have been consistent on. Mitigation measures in general wil go away when community spread is low enough, not even gone, but just "low enough". An individual and their personal vaccine status has nothing to do with eliminating the mitigation efforts. Being vaccinated, they'll contribute to reducing the community spread, which will in turn eliminate the need for mitigation.

Different places can get to this outcome in different ways. Getting enough people vaccinated is certainly a good way. It's just not the only way. Well, it's probably the only way in the US based on where were are today.

 

[danlb_2000]

Those other people are *also present in the hospital waiting room.*

If you lock yourself in your basement, you can't be exposed to a pathogen I picked up in a hospital waiting room.

Those other people are also the patients in the hospital who may be there due to no fault of their own.

I am willing to discuss whether closing my local clothing store was a good idea or not, but to me, for at least the first few months of the pandemic, keeping guests out of hospitals was a no-brainer.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Those other people are *also present in the hospital waiting room.*

If you lock yourself in your basement, you can't be exposed to a pathogen I picked up in a hospital waiting room.

Those other people seeking medical care are not choosing to be exposed. They are seeking medical care. They should not have to give that up because you don’t want to be inconvenienced or wear a mask.

 

[havoc315]

Those other people are *also present in the hospital waiting room.*

If you lock yourself in your basement, you can't be exposed to a pathogen I picked up in a hospital waiting room.

It's ironic that you call yourself Captain America -- because Captain America understood sacrifice and patriotism for the greater good.

The only alternative shouldn't be "lock yourself in the basement and starve to death."

The hospital janitor should be able to keep his job... with the employer/state/city also doing everything reasonably possible to make that job safer for the hospital janitor.
The hospital janitor shouldn't have to quit his job and hide in the basement, just so you can unnecessarily spread virus around.
Nurses and Doctors, already taking increased risk of Covid exposure..... But they should quit their jobs and hide in the basement if they want to reduce their risks?
Has to be all or none??

 

[havoc315]

Those other people are also the patients in the hospital who may be there due to no fault of their own.

I am willing to discuss whether closing my local clothing store was a good idea or not, but to me, for at least the first few months of the pandemic, keeping guests out of hospitals was a no-brainer.

And the doctors, nurses, janitors, orderlies, technicians, delivery people.... How dare they choose to keep their jobs. If they really want to be safe, they should quit their jobs and hide in the basement..

 

[danlb_2000]

OK - Moral theology is my field. Let's work with this. I've been very troubled by that.

When considering whether or not something is evil, you need to ask if the action is ever justifiable. Then, if yes, you need to ask if the action is justifiable under these conditions. That's why you can't say war is unjust, but you can say that some wars are unjust.

Are there circumstances that would justify preventing a person from visiting a dying relative? What if it were ebola? And there were no protective gear available? Would it be justifiable to allow somebody, unprotected, to go in when doing so would be almost certain infection and probably death? (After all, once they are exposed, you can't let them expose anybody else, so they have to be confined to that room).

Here's the circumstances with the COVID bans on visiting those infected, including the dying:

• At the start, there wasn't enough PPE to protect the visitor. It's still not easy to come by.
• The real risk with COVID is the collapse of the healthcare system - so more people getting sick raises that risk, which affects everybody.
• Transmissibility is still not fully understand, but was definitely not well-understood in the beginning, so there was no way of knowing how one person visiting a dying loved one could potentially put scores or more of other people at risk.
• It's not perfect, but there are alternative means to visitations, including tele-visits. Nothing replaces human touch, but it is a middle ground.
• Nobody hates the no-visitiation more (other than families of dying loved-ones) than health care workers. They are not clamoring for a change in policy.
• The policy will change when it is safe to do so. (Our hospital vaccinated clergy in the first group precisely so they could have people who could visit COVID patents safely.)

My take - if there is a risk of dying isolated and alone from COVID and that risk devastates you - take whatever precautions you can to avoid getting COVID. My husband and I had the conversation that if either of us headed into a hospital with COVID, we would understand that the last time we were physically together could be the last time we were physically together. Not likely, but possible, so we prepared ourselves emotionally and spiritually for that possibility.

Losing a loved-one to COVID and not being able to be with them is sad and tragic. If it is evil, it's an evil caused by the disease itself and not by human policy. Nobody wants this policy. If it were safe to do otherwise, the policy would not be there.

You last paragraph hits a very good point. This pandemic is awful, it's is causing a lot of pain and suffering in a wide variety of ways. Once it got started there really was no path that didn't include pain and suffering of some sort. Most the the decisions that were made were made to try to reduce that suffering as much as possible. People were trying to make the best decisions they could without a lot of data and under difficult circumstances.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

It's ironic that you call yourself Captain America -- because Captain America understood sacrifice and patriotism for the greater good.

The only alternative shouldn't be "lock yourself in the basement and starve to death."

The hospital janitor should be able to keep his job... with the employer/state/city also doing everything reasonably possible to make that job safer for the hospital janitor.
The hospital janitor shouldn't have to quit his job and hide in the basement, just so you can unnecessarily spread virus around.
Nurses and Doctors, already taking increased risk of Covid exposure..... But they should quit their jobs and hide in the basement if they want to reduce their risks?
Has to be all or none??

What a weird time we're in where doctors and nurses seem surprised that their jobs involve being around sick people.

 

[lazyboy97o]

What a weird time we're in where doctors and nurses seem surprised that their jobs involve being around sick people.

Since when are all medical issues communicable? Since when do doctors and nurses not use precautions that include using protective equipment and excluding or isolating persons?

 

[Heppenheimer]

What a weird time we're in where doctors and nurses seem surprised that their jobs involve being around sick people.

We accept the risks and use mitigation strategies, but that doesn't mean we allow guests to have free rein to do anything they want in our facilities. Infection control is and always will be part of our jobs.

 

[havoc315]

What a weird time we're in where doctors and nurses seem surprised that their jobs involve being around sick people.

The only thing weird is that some people aren't willing to make small sacrifices so that those doctors and nurses can care for their loved ones with lower risk to themselves.

Soldiers need to risk their lives. Does that mean we shouldn't give soldiers body armor and other means to protect themselves??

 

[Touchdown]

What a weird time we're in where doctors and nurses seem surprised that their jobs involve being around sick people.

Please tell me where you have seen doctors and nurses complaining about the risk at their job? There was certainly complaints early on when we didn’t have enough PPE but since May up until when I got my vaccine I felt safer at work then out in public. At work I had access to N95 masks, CAPRs and all Covid pts were in negative pressure rooms. That’s a heck of a lot safer then sitting 6ft away from a person at a resturant with Covid and none of us wearing masks (which is why I didn’t do the latter until being vaccinated.)

 

[Touchdown]

The only thing weird is that some people aren't willing to make small sacrifices so that those doctors and nurses can care for their loved ones with lower risk to themselves.

Soldiers need to risk their lives. Does that mean we shouldn't give soldiers body armor and other means to protect themselves??

In this country if you re a health care worker and you still aren’t vaccinated it’s your own fault at this point, due to dropping demand my systems employee clinic will stop vaccinating first doses to employees at the end of this week. We are thankfully protected now, and the push moves out to convincing the general public to get the shot.