Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

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Tink242424

Well-Known Member
the question that no one can seem to get past here (because of politics) is:

what laws/temporary restrictions ACTUALLY contribute to the greater good? that's the problem. and people don't want to face it, because the case made by some politicians is masked in virtue: just wear this, just stay home longer, just keep your distance, we're all in this together. but public health in general occurs on a continuum; it's a multi-faceted, highly nuanced balancing act. myopic policies undermine even the best of intentions.

COVID restrictions ask the bulk of the working class to wear it on the chin for the upper and upper middle classes. i know this because people that make $15 an hour were asked to keep stocking grocery shelves for eight hours a day. i know this because transit employees kept driving the buses and running the trains. and all these new "sanitizing" policies were done by...regular ol' cleaning people. "essential" work is a myth created by policymakers.

then there's people that are in their homes longer that aren't in safe relationships with their spouse/partner. kids that are being abused by their caregivers and having it go unnoticed because they're not in school. there are recovering addicts that couldn't attend meetings, and succumbed to overdoses. as did many suffering with mental health succumbed to suicide. millions of children in the US rely on public schools for their hot meals. in the developing world, disrupted supply chains will cause mass catatrophy. in may, UNICEF projected 1.2 million deaths to children in the next six months due to lockdowns (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-...ckdown-could-kill-covid-19-model-predicts-12/).

not to mention mass unemployement (and the loss of employer-sponsored healthcare for many americans...yes, i support medicare for all, but it's just a fairly tale for now). crippling debt that a $1,200 stimulus check isn't going to fix. oh, and i didn't even get to the fact that homes is where most of the transmission of COVID happens and by forcing healthy people in the same house as sick people, you're exacerbating the problem.

so this is what at least some people are driving at. it's easy to say, "just SACRIFICE, people! for the GREATER GOOD! FOR THE BENEFIT OF MANY!" not working? "SACRIFICE MORE. WHY ARE YOU SELFISH?!?!" but the reason why mass quarantine and lockdown strategies were not considered viable by the WHO, CDC, nor any other public agency around the world prior to 2020 was that everyone knew there would be mass unintended consequences.

and i think we can spare the fact that this is simply a 'MURICA problem. thanks to globalization, we're all interconnected. and we're social animals with more basic needs that foraged nuts in the middle of the wilderness.
Yes!! My sister works in an assisted living facility and the residents aren't even allowed out of their rooms let alone are able to see their family. These residents have declined physically and mentally. This is just 1 consequence of the pandemic and the policies that cause harm.

It is very easy for me as I am able to work completely remotely and see my family as well. But I know there are a lot of people struggling and not being with friends and family for a year or more is just not feasible for many people. It isn't being selfish.
 

Tink242424

Well-Known Member
@Tink242424 perhaps you'd like to share what's so funny about wearing a mask during a pandemic and discussing the science that proves that masks help reduce spread seeing as you continue to put laughing reactions on posts that aren't remotely funny.
What I find funny is how so many on here have just 1 point of view and are not willing to see that the issue is more complex then what is being presented. Anytime anyone presents any other opinion or argument they are called anti-science, conspiracy theorist, COVID denier. I find that funny.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
What I find funny is how so many on here have just 1 point of view and are not willing to see that the issue is more complex then what is being presented. Anytime anyone presents any other opinion or argument they are called anti-science, conspiracy theorist, COVID denier. I find that funny.
For me personally, I don’t think any of this is easy. If it was we would be past it already. I obviously have some strong opinions on what I think would work and what doesn’t, but I don’t know anything for certain any more than anyone else does. I’m pretty sure our handling so far as a country has not been great. That’s supported by how other countries are doing compared to us. I listen to other opinions and share my feelings on them often. I try not to call people names, but there have been some anti-science conspiracy theories that have been presented here as facts. I see no problem with questioning things people present or asking for support. I also have no problem with anyone challenging what I post and asking for support for statements presented as fact or just flat out disagreeing with me. That’s part of the discussion. I usually try to include some external sources to support my statements but sometimes they are just opinions or stuff I think should be obvious.
 

Tink242424

Well-Known Member
Please post this again... in all capital letters please. Thanks.
Ok, so what did I say that is really wrong. I pointed out that "experts" have been all over the place regarding masks and I think they could have done a better job messaging to people so there was less push back. Not sure why this is so controversial.

And frankly people asking for sources can go and google it themselves. There have been numerous articles on masks. This group likes to operate in an echo chamber and only wants to hear its own point of view. So sorry I don't go on her on the weekends and I also work all day so only jump on for a few and you had to wait for an article that you could google yourself...
 

Tink242424

Well-Known Member
For me personally, I don’t think any of this is easy. If it was we would be past it already. I obviously have some strong opinions on what I think would work and what doesn’t, but I don’t know anything for certain any more than anyone else does. I’m pretty sure our handling so far as a country has not been great. That’s supported by how other countries are doing compared to us. I listen to other opinions and share my feelings on them often. I try not to call people names, but there have been some anti-science conspiracy theories that have been presented here as facts. I see no problem with questioning things people present or asking for support. I also have no problem with anyone challenging what I post and asking for support for statements presented as fact or just flat out disagreeing with me. That’s part of the discussion. I usually try to include some external sources to support my statements but sometimes they are just opinions or stuff I think should be obvious.
This board is tough and I definitely don't write as eloquently as I speak... LOL!

I'm more of a middle of the road with this pandemic. I think its serious but I also think we have overreacted to a degree. I don't agree with all the science as I have a science background and I don't think we have it all figured out. I also value our freedom and I don't want to give our government any more power that we won't get back. I think we can overcome this pandemic using different messaging instead of the division that the media is pushing on us.

This board is tough but that is ok. I don't need everyone to agree with me and I don't expect to change anyone's mind. America has a lot going on right now and it doesn't seem like most people are tolerant of others opinions. I see it on this board. I just challenge everyone (myself included) to listen to all sides as sometimes it an open up your mind to greater understanding.

Hope you have a good night! :)
 

MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
These are a few I could find about experts saying that we don't need masks or they wouldn't really stop the spread. These are harder to find since they were released mainly in March/April. The message was out there.



There were quite a few articles about neck gaitors and to a lesser extent bandana's not being effective. Article on study about neck gaitors not stopping the spread of COVID.


So, you said:

The first message was masks don't work

In your first source to back this claim up, we find this:

Wearing masks and gloves as a precaution against coronavirus is ineffective, unnecessary for the vast majority of people, and may even spread infections faster, experts said Tuesday.
While near-total lockdowns have been imposed in Italy, Spain and now France, the World Health Organization's advice has remained unchanged since the start of the global outbreak: wash your hands, don't touch your face, and keep your distance.
The WHO says it is advisable to wear a protective mask in public if you suspect you are infected or someone you are caring for is, in which case the advice is to stay home whenever possible.
Now, why would WHO advise to wear a mask if they don't work? Well, you may point to the first sentence which says:

Wearing masks and gloves as a precaution against coronavirus is ineffective, unnecessary for the vast majority of people, and may even spread infections faster, experts said Tuesday.

So, why the seeming difference in recommendations? Because from that same article...
"There are limits to how a mask can protect you from being infected and we've said the most important thing everyone can do is wash your hands, keep your hands away from your face, observe very precise hygiene," said WHO's emergencies director Mike Ryan.
Contaminated masks
As well as hoovering up stocks sorely needed by medical professionals, experts say masks can give people who wear them a false sense of security.
For example, many people who wear them don't follow the official advice of washing their hands thoroughly first, ensuring it's air tight and not to touch it once it's on.
Because the recommendation was to wear it if you were sick with COVID or exposed to it so that you don't spread it... which is the main reason everyone's been saying we should wear masks, not to protect ourselves, but to protect others. That the article you quote to show that experts were saying "masks don't work" actually shows they were saying masks do indeed work... to protect others if you have the virus.

They then go on to say how people unused to wearing mask can ruin their own hygiene bubble by not wearing a mask correctly. And given the shortage, leave them for the professionals OR FOR YOURSELF IF YOU HAVE THE VIRUS OR BEEN EXPOSED. Because masks work, which is the opposite of your characterization of what you say experts were saying.

The second article you quote to show that the experts were saying masks don't work is the same thing.

Masks should be worn by those with the disease or those in close contact with those infected.

Why would WHO make that recommendation to wear a mask if "masks don't work"?

The third article with the strawman about non-mask masks is ridiculous to even bring up.

Ya see, this is why we ask for a source and a Haha emoji is a puerile response to such a request.
 

hopemax

Well-Known Member
What I find funny is how so many on here have just 1 point of view and are not willing to see that the issue is more complex then what is being presented. Anytime anyone presents any other opinion or argument they are called anti-science, conspiracy theorist, COVID denier. I find that funny.
No. The belief is not that the issue is "more complex." The belief is that all of this is actually very, simple and the rest of us are trying to complicate it. A tiny, fraction of the population, who happen to be more elderly and more minority than the normal demographics, is going to die and there is not a thing anyone can do about it and so why are we even bothering? Everything else is trying to find some sort of justification for it.

I've tried responding to about 5 different things in topsy-turvy day today, and each time I give up in frustration. Adults have had 7 months to prove how responsible they will be in a crisis and enough of them have failed, that as a country we have failed. They went to bars, they said masks are useless, they said contact tracing was useless, they prioritized information coming from physicists and radiologists over infectious disease experts, they said their meals, entertainment and vacations were more important than someone else's life. They said if you are vulnerable, don't look at me, lock yourselves up while at the same time talking about how we are ruining the lives of essential workers who can't. No one telling these people, "I trust you to seek out the correct information and react accordingly," is going to suddenly start doing so, because they have already had 7 months! Or are you going to try to convince me that a responsible adult is only acting irresponsibly because "someone made them do it." That is NOT a responsible adult.

This virus is simple. Increased contact = increased infection = increased hospitalization = increased death. Contacts -> Deaths.

So when people say they are so worried about the essential workers, and the poor kids, I have a really hard trouble believing it. If you acknowledge essential workers can't isolate, if you acknowledge essential workers are more likely to have more exposures, if you acknowledge essential workers are more likely to live in multi-generational situations where they will spread infections to vulnerable people, then how dare these people suggest living in a way which results in increased contacts, because the predictable outcome is increased deaths in the sphere of these people. These people rely on their abuelas and tias being their to provide childcare. These people rely on grandparents taking over the rearing of their grandchildren in cases of abuse, addiction and abandonment. These are people who have suffered from poorer health outcomes their entire lives, and who the COVID research has shown are experiencing COVID outcomes, across all age brackets, 10 years earlier than their more privileged, and more white counterparts. Meaning that minority populations aged 50-60 are experiencing the same outcomes as others that are aged 60-70. And when the ICU rationing of care starts, who do we think are going to be the ones sent home? Upper and middle class, privileged people? These unnecessary deaths are destroying families, and the next 3 months are going to be devastating for these people.

This is the best I can do today for cogent arguments, and I know I'm just spitting into the wind. I'm hoping this is all just a specifically timed desperation by the overlords who are dispensing the alternate world view because they know that in one week the process begins to remove them from at least the top-level US Administration stage. And once the reality of what is unfolding over the next 3 months becomes impossible to obfuscate, they will crawl back into their holes.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
If i understand the risk (of getting covid) than that should be my decision. I have been bar hoping weekend after weekend. Living life. Period.
It’s not that simple. I understand the risk of driving my car 150 MPH down a highway but I’m still not allowed to do it because it’s not just me that potentially gets harmed. My actions can result in harm to others, same as Covid restrictions.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
This board is tough and I definitely don't write as eloquently as I speak... LOL!

I'm more of a middle of the road with this pandemic. I think its serious but I also think we have overreacted to a degree. I don't agree with all the science as I have a science background and I don't think we have it all figured out. I also value our freedom and I don't want to give our government any more power that we won't get back. I think we can overcome this pandemic using different messaging instead of the division that the media is pushing on us.

This board is tough but that is ok. I don't need everyone to agree with me and I don't expect to change anyone's mind. America has a lot going on right now and it doesn't seem like most people are tolerant of others opinions. I see it on this board. I just challenge everyone (myself included) to listen to all sides as sometimes it an open up your mind to greater understanding.

Hope you have a good night! :)
I listen to what everyone has to say. That doesn’t mean I have to agree with it ;)

You have a good night too. :)
 

DC0703

Well-Known Member
Don't forget this is a slippery slope. I'm all for stopping the pandemic but we don't need new laws or to give our government the right to infringe on our liberties. Treating people like adults and using positive reinforcement would get a lot more people on board.

I truly fear what is happening to the citizens of the US and how much freedom people are willing to give up. One day we may end up in a world that we aren't free at all.

To be VERY CLEAR I'm NOT saying that we should not have people wear masks, social distance or any of the other measures that we are doing. What I'm saying is that they shouldn't be mandated by the government.

In normal times, I might agree with some of what you are saying, but these are not normal times. Government mandates for masking and social distancing are necessary because without them a large chunk of the population will not follow the guidelines. And in a pandemic, you need everyone following the guidelines, and doing so right away, or their effectiveness is greatly lessened. We don't have the time to educate people through positive reinforcement campaigns and advertising. And honestly, considering the state of politics and the mixed messaging the country has been hearing, I question what sort of positive reinforcement would even be possible right now.

Ironically, the defiance over masking and distancing is only making the situation worse and prolonging our return to normalcy.

Nobody likes this situation. Nobody likes avoiding loved ones, being cooped up in the house, seeing their kids get a diminished education, or not being able to take their annual Disney trip. But just as past generations have had to deal with wars, previous pandemics, and the depression, this is our moment of trial. Let's save the worries about government overreach until we are out of the crisis and focus on the safety of ourselves and our fellow citizens.
 

GimpYancIent

Well-Known Member
In normal times, I might agree with some of what you are saying, but these are not normal times. Government mandates for masking and social distancing are necessary because without them a large chunk of the population will not follow the guidelines. And in a pandemic, you need everyone following the guidelines, and doing so right away, or their effectiveness is greatly lessened. We don't have the time to educate people through positive reinforcement campaigns and advertising. And honestly, considering the state of politics and the mixed messaging the country has been hearing, I question what sort of positive reinforcement would even be possible right now.

Ironically, the defiance over masking and distancing is only making the situation worse and prolonging our return to normalcy.

Nobody likes this situation. Nobody likes avoiding loved ones, being cooped up in the house, seeing their kids get a diminished education, or not being able to take their annual Disney trip. But just as past generations have had to deal with wars, previous pandemics, and the depression, this is our moment of trial. Let's save the worries about government overreach until we are out of the crisis and focus on the safety of ourselves and our fellow citizens.
Localities with enforced draconian restrictions, mandates and requirements have suffered just as much. The folks in those locations are just more irritated by poor interpretation of the mandates and poor judgement by the so called enforcers. There is no need for a mask and social distancing KGB.
 

networkpro

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
Yes
How’s that bar ‘hoping’ going? Not open so you just look longingly, thirsty, full of hope .... or have you had one too many... 🤣

Thirsty in more than one way. It's all about risk acceptance. DUI, STD, the Rona, liver, or lung failure ? Each has multiple paths to reach that goal.
 

matt9112

Well-Known Member
It’s not that simple. I understand the risk of driving my car 150 MPH down a highway but I’m still not allowed to do it because it’s not just me that potentially gets harmed. My actions can result in harm to others, same as Covid restrictions.
Everyone inside a bar...right now...is doing 150...together....all at once...thats your argument? Nobody inside a bar tonight is there trying to do 70...ok i have seen a couple people dancing on the dance floors with masks on however im pretty sure the masks are moot in that crowded environment.
 

matt9112

Well-Known Member
And? If the bars are open and operating in your area than you are free to do so. So you’re happy then right?
You mean the state of Florida? Yes i am. Just like people are allowed also in the state of Florida to stay home 24/7 and risk no exposure. Its called choice. You could make some arguments about people in certain jobs (like retail) having no choice. (To be fair my job is less than this boards status quo) so i am forced into the environment anyway so on a factual personal level theres probably not that much more elevated risk...im probably in a dumpster fire of risk. But im just rolling with it.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
You mean the state of Florida? Yes i am. Just like people are allowed also in the state of Florida to stay home 24/7 and risk no exposure. Its called choice. You could make some arguments about people in certain jobs (like retail) having no choice. (To be fair my job is less than this boards status quo) so i am forced into the environment anyway so on a factual personal level theres probably not that much more elevated risk...im probably in a dumpster fire of risk. But im just rolling with it.
What is this key symptom you will recognize so you can make the choice not to share?
 
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