ImperfectPixie
Well-Known Member
Maybe they would if people would stop behaving like imbecile children.
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Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion
- Thread starter Parker in NYC
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- coronavirus covid covid-19
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Heppenheimer
Well-Known Member
I thought part of being an adult was being trusted to do the right thing on your own, particularly when nobody else is looking. That we need mandates shows that maybe "treating people as adults" hasn't worked because people have not acted like adults.
GoofGoof
Premium Member
Like I said originally, I don’t want to go back through this debate again. You are free to agree with him. I don’t. I don’t think that just because the deaths were elderly people that we should do less to prevent them. Everyone is free to feel how they want.
DisneyCane
Well-Known Member
Hypothetically, if there is no effective vaccine until 2024, would you support continued drastic measures for four years so as not to do "less" to protect the elderly?
SamusAranX
Well-Known Member
No, no; that just won't do. To the CRG for you!! (Covid Re-education Gulag)
GoofGoof
Premium Member
Just to be clear, your position is that we should not have current measures (that you call drastic) because Covid is only killing elderly people. If it was killing younger people you would support more drastic measures. That’s what I’m getting from your posts but others keep telling me that‘s not what you are saying. I will answer your question but I need to understand what you are saying first.
America used to be a free country without people who believe only their views are correct forcing mandates on the people. You are free to stay in your bunker - I have no problem with that. Maybe you should extend the same courtesy to me.
JoeCamel
Well-Known Member
So someone decides to drive 100 through towns yet that is ok because it is their decision? People just wanna have fun?
You can be irresponsible with your life if you wish. That right stops at the door when you impact and endanger mine.
DisneyDebRob
Well-Known Member
Is wearing masks and social distancing, which we are doing now, drastic? I’m not sure what you mean by that word. I really don’t think a lot of people anymore would have survived the wars of past, recession of the 20’s and 30’ etc. the people back then did what was needed to be done for years. Here a mask and distancing for 6 months is driving people insane. It’s incredible.
DisneyDebRob
Well-Known Member
Here we go with the scared.. fearful.. afraid talk. We have enough here saying those things. Please go back and read the thread and you will see there’s not many saying that. Difference between making a conscious effort to keeping someone’s family safe, their decision, and being in a bunker.
DisneyCane
Well-Known Member
The measures I call drastic are any that involve forced closures of businesses or indoor capacity restrictions that go beyond what is required for 6 foot social distancing. I also think that any restrictions on outdoor activities are drastic (if you want to require masks outdoors if there isn't social distancing for things like sports or concerts, I'm fine with that). I also believe keeping kids from going to school in person is drastic and has a detrimental effect on people who now can't work because their kids are home.
Chi84
Premium Member
I don't agree that the elderly have less value or that we should do less to prevent their deaths based on how many years they have left. I also don't agree with putting words in other people's mouths - or calling them names (not directed at you), which is apparently the only thing in some posters' arsenals.
The fact is that when early decisions were being made, we didn't know much about this virus and how it is transmitted. Most of the people who died were elderly, and a significant number (at one point over half in Illinois) were nursing home residents. Many were taken to a hospital, treated, and then returned to their nursing homes, which was the wrong thing to do based on what we now know about how the virus is transmitted. Expanding isolation facilities for those people may have saved many more lives than closing restaurants - we just didn't know the right thing to do.
Wearing masks and social distancing may not be drastic measures, but that's not all that is happening. Nonessential workers in several businesses have lost jobs. While restaurants may not have been "closed," they had to operate in a very restricted manner and many in my area did not survive. Those that are open are not making money now because of the restrictions. Some would instead attribute it to people voluntarily remaining away - we don't know.
I find it arrogant for anyone to take the position that what they think is correct and anyone who disagrees is "sentencing people to death" or "living in a bunker." What DisneyCane actually expressed - which is not the same as what some attributed to that poster - is what a lot of people (including some elderly) are thinking, and I believe it is necessary to find out what people are thinking. In order to do so, we need to communicate without so much judgment. Obviously, I'm referring to civil communication, not anything incendiary, hateful or obscene.
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Well... here I go about to agree with both sides, at least from a certain point of view...
My Grandmother is 90 and in generally good health for her age and perfectly fine mental capacity. She’s been very strict to follow guidance. Aside from going to to church (socially distanced, masks, no singing), doctors appts, and my aunts house for dinners with immediate family, she hasn’t been outside her apartment much since March. She’s normally a very social person and going a little stir crazy by this point.
I have no idea if it will turn out to be a good idea or not, but I floated the idea of taking her to Epcot and she latched onto it readily, even after I spent half an hour on ‘disclaimers’ to the whole experience.
The ONLY reason I suggested it was because of my personal experience with the way Disney is handling this, and with the strict enforcement of the measures they have in place. Nothing is safe, but I truly believe it’s the safest ‘close to normal’ experience you can have at the moment. If Disney wasn’t taking these measures, and still taking them, it wouldn’t even be on the table. So, in a way, it’s good for Disney that they have extensive prior experience in the field of ‘not treating people like adults’, because my grandmother does not trust people to consider her safety enough to go to the supermarket in her community as it stands today.
After DeSantis moved the state to phase three, she almost immediately called me and asked if Disney was ‘going to 100% capacity like he said’, and that she didn’t want to go if that was the case. I assured her that Disney still was being very cautious and that nothing was likely to change soon.
So, the big day is tomorrow, and she’s very excited. The weather is great, we’re going to take it slow and safe, and avoid some of the more ‘questionable’ activities like indoor dining. I’m grateful that the opportunity to do something like this exists for her, and that she can make the educated choice to partake, but if it were a free-for-all situation with only ‘personal responsibility’ in play this wouldn’t be possible.
As in most everything about working through this, there is nuance to the details and everything is most definitely not just ‘our side vs theirs’, at least for those of us trying to live in the real world. I’ve researched and taken considerable consideration to both liberal and conservative viewpoints. Both are right. Neither are right. The truth is always somewhere in between. There are ways that we can take sensible and easy precautions to allow people to live their lives, but there HAS to be some standard guidance otherwise it all falls apart for everyone.
GoofGoof
Premium Member
OK, so since you didn’t dispute my description of your position I will assume that means it’s accurate. I don’t want to be accused of putting words in your mouth.
DisneyCane
Well-Known Member
You have the right to stay away from other people. Your statement about endangering you assumes that the other person is infected. If we try to make some estimate, studies have said that around 10% of the US population has been infected to date. That's 32.8 million (vs the 7.453 reported cases).
Let's assume 14 days for the time somebody is contagious. There's been roughly 14, 14 day periods since the beginning of April. I started counting with April since it is a rolling 14 days for my calculation to be a little conservative. That's about 2.34 million contagious at one time. On average, 0.7% of the population is contagious at any given time.
The premise behind your statement is that it is highly likely that the people you come into contact with are contagious with SARS-CoV-2. This premise is very far from true.
The driving analogy doesn't work because a person electing to drive 100 through a town is doing something voluntarily that is known to be dangerous. A person who has a 99.3% chance of NOT being able to transmit SARS-CoV-2 to somebody going to a bar isn't doing something voluntarily that is known to be dangerous. The analogy only works if somebody has tested positive and then voluntarily comes into contact with others.
There needs to be a nationwide mask mandate. Period. End of sentence. Coupled with social distancing.
On the other end, we need to start thinking of how to live/thrive with this virus, we can't handle another lockdown. I know this may come as a shock to some
, but other companies, mom/pops shops, industries have been laying employees off this entire time.
What's upsetting if from what I read is correct, we've been waiting for a vaccine, but people are now saying they won't get the vaccine, it's not safe, it's not going to work - then I'm not sure what else we can do? Are those same people asking to go back into a complete lockdown?
I know it's an unpopular view (although if we follow masks/social distancing guidelines, I don't know why it's unpopular) but we can't go back to full on lockdowns. We have to get the economy moving again, somehow.
I'm not discounting the very real risks from Covid, but we've got to find someway to mitigate those risks and still start to thrive again. I say this as someone who has been personally affected by furloughs/pay-cuts and so have many of my friends/family. People just won't make it again.
On the other end, we need to start thinking of how to live/thrive with this virus, we can't handle another lockdown. I know this may come as a shock to some
, but other companies, mom/pops shops, industries have been laying employees off this entire time.What's upsetting if from what I read is correct, we've been waiting for a vaccine, but people are now saying they won't get the vaccine, it's not safe, it's not going to work - then I'm not sure what else we can do? Are those same people asking to go back into a complete lockdown?
I know it's an unpopular view (although if we follow masks/social distancing guidelines, I don't know why it's unpopular) but we can't go back to full on lockdowns. We have to get the economy moving again, somehow.
I'm not discounting the very real risks from Covid, but we've got to find someway to mitigate those risks and still start to thrive again. I say this as someone who has been personally affected by furloughs/pay-cuts and so have many of my friends/family. People just won't make it again.
DisneyCane
Well-Known Member
I guess "current measures" depends on where you are. I don't think indoor social distancing is drastic. I don't think enhanced sanitizing procedures are drastic. I don't think face covering requirements are drastic (although I personally don't think they do much).
So I put my hypothetical question back to you. If an effective vaccine isn't available until 2024, do you support forced business closures, indoor capacity restrictions beyond 6 ft social distancing and outdoor capacity restrictions for another four years?
Sirwalterraleigh
Premium Member
...I think I have my nominee for “poster of the week”!
Postus with the Mostus
Postus with the Mostus
DisneyCane
Well-Known Member
I'd like to know exactly how a nationwide mask mandate would be legally implemented without declaring martial law? Regardless of feelings about what should be done, it's a question that hasn't been answered.
Sirwalterraleigh
Premium Member
...bow wow wow yippee yo yippee yayThere needs to be a nationwide mask mandate. Period. End of sentence. Coupled with social distancing.
On the other end, we need to start thinking of how to live/thrive with this virus, we can't handle another lockdown. I know this may come as a shock to some
What's upsetting if from what I read is correct, we've been waiting for a vaccine, but people are now saying they won't get the vaccine, it's not safe, it's not going to work - then I'm not sure what else we can do? Are those same people asking to go back into a complete lockdown?
I know it's an unpopular view (although if we follow masks/social distancing guidelines, I don't know why it's unpopular) but we can't go back to full on lockdowns. We have to get the economy moving again, somehow.
I'm not discounting the very real risks from Covid, but we've got to find someway to mitigate those risks and still start to thrive again. I say this as someone who has been personally affected by furloughs/pay-cuts and so have many of my friends/family. People just won't make it again.
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