Cedar Point

dandaman

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
LoisMustDie said:
I live 40 minutes from CP, and have gone there every year since I can remember. Unfortunately I've become disenchanted with the place, and will not be renewing my Season Pass for the first time in five years. However I'm content with visiting once a year, and will be making a day-trip in July (not because I want to, but because I'll be with friends).


I've ridden a similar ride at Paramount's Kings Island called "Delirium," and let me tell you that if it is anything like Delirium, it will be one hell of a ride. Unfortunately, because of CP's gross overcrowding, expect the ride to take a good chunck out of your day.

By the way, if you're scared of this kind of ride, I'd advise you to try it anyway. I hate rides like Chaos and the Zipper that throw you every which way, but Delirium was amazingly tame and exciting for me.

It's almost exactly like Delirium, except it's even taller and faster (the classic Cedar Point credo :)). Also, the overcrowding usually is no problem for CP, as they are the highest capacity park in North America (voted by Amusement Today). On a different forum, I've gathered that it can hold about 1000 riders/hour, which means a pretty fast-moving line. Almost all rides at CP have a very high capacity, the highest being 3000/hour.

Less than 8 days until I get to ride that massive sucker... :sohappy:
 

LoisMustDie

New Member
dandaman said:
It's almost exactly like Delirium, except it's even taller and faster (the classic Cedar Point credo :)).
Ah yes, the Cedar Point credo: copy other people's ideas and make them a little bit bigger, so the yahoos that think that CP is the best thing since sliced bread can't stop blabbing on how much "better" it is, fully unaware that bigger does not necessarily mean better (also abhorrent is how many of them have never even been on the ride). Unfortunately, CP has yet to admonish this, and what happens is that once a ride (originally built with quantity and not quality in mind) is surpassed in height or length by another coaster, CP's huge investment gets lost in the abyss and is never heard from again (Mean Streak anyone?). I'll actually PAY to go to CP next time when they actually get a clue about this.

Dandaman said:
Also, the overcrowding usually is no problem for CP, as they are the highest capacity park in North America (voted by Amusement Today).
Of course they have the highest capacity! The park is 300+ acres and has the largest collection of rides out of any park! How in blue hell can Amusement Today vote on facts?! Are they so out of ideas that they have to resort to VOTING who has the highest capacity? Isn't there FACTUAL evidence for this? What will they "vote" on next, who has the highest food sales?

And no, CP has a HUGE overcrowding problem (sad considering it was "voted" as highest capacity park). Go on any Saturday (when Corkscrew usually has a 30 minute wait) to see what I mean. The understaffing and incredibly bad ride capacity issues don't help either.

Dandaman said:
On a different forum, I've gathered that it can hold about 1000 riders/hour, which means a pretty fast-moving line. Almost all rides at CP have a very high capacity, the highest being 3000/hour.
First off, 1000/hour is not fast at all. By contrast, the Tomorrowland Speedway loads 1200/hour, and if you think that ride loads fast...get real.

Second, had you known anything about the way that capacity is calculated, you'd know that these capacities for, say, Delirium or Gemini (which is the 3000/hour example you use) are completely unrealistic. They are based on a system that assumes that all rides are full and running at full capacity. The problem, like in this case, is that these kinds of assumptions usually have a zero chance of holding in the real world. Attraction vehicles *never* leave the load station 100% full all the time – groups like to ride together and not with other groups (I mean, who really wants to ride Splash Mountain with an utter stranger in your lap?) – and theaters are usually not 100% full as well. This is why the "Single-Rider Lines" (like on the Rocket Rods or WDW’s Test Track) work so well – there are always vacant seats that can be filled. It takes a lot of extra time to mix, match and break up groups just to get full cars. Which, in fact, is why all other amusement parks (including Cedar Point) send out partially filled vehicles. They get higher real-world capacity by sending out partially filled roller-coaster cars more quickly than having to wait to fill them up completely.

My point here is this: though CP operates on the same unrealistic capacity goals as everyone else, they are prone to pathetic load times and capacity decisions. When was the last time you saw six trains running on Gemini? Or five trains on the Mine Ride? Those are the capacities that CP is basing their assumptions on, so you can see how fast capacity declines when more and more trains are pulled off the tracks, as CP is wont to do. Second, have you noticed how long it takes CP operators to load Mantis or MF as compared to, say, The Incredible Hulk at IOA? Their load time is much slower, and thus cars are cycling through at a much slower pace, lowering the already lowered capacities. So when you get all excited because MaXair will cycle through 1000/hour (an already slow ride time), take in load time into account, and how many employees are available to work the ride, not to mention how many empty seats there will be when the ride starts moving. Those numbers add up fast, and so does the wait time as a result.

And so, I reiterate: plan on MaXair taking a big chunk out of your day.
 

darthdarrel

New Member
LoisMustDie said:
Ah yes, the Cedar Point credo: copy other people's ideas and make them a little bit bigger, so the yahoos that think that CP is the best thing since sliced bread can't stop blabbing on how much "better" it is, fully unaware that bigger does not necessarily mean better (also abhorrent is how many of them have never even been on the ride). Unfortunately, CP has yet to admonish this, and what happens is that once a ride (originally built with quantity and not quality in mind) is surpassed in height or length by another coaster, CP's huge investment gets lost in the abyss and is never heard from again (Mean Streak anyone?). I'll actually PAY to go to CP next time when they actually get a clue about this.


Of course they have the highest capacity! The park is 300+ acres and has the largest collection of rides out of any park! How in blue hell can Amusement Today vote on facts?! Are they so out of ideas that they have to resort to VOTING who has the highest capacity? Isn't there FACTUAL evidence for this? What will they "vote" on next, who has the highest food sales?

And no, CP has a HUGE overcrowding problem (sad considering it was "voted" as highest capacity park). Go on any Saturday (when Corkscrew usually has a 30 minute wait) to see what I mean. The understaffing and incredibly bad ride capacity issues don't help either.


First off, 1000/hour is not fast at all. By contrast, the Tomorrowland Speedway loads 1200/hour, and if you think that ride loads fast...get real.

Second, had you known anything about the way that capacity is calculated, you'd know that these capacities for, say, Delirium or Gemini (which is the 3000/hour example you use) are completely unrealistic. They are based on a system that assumes that all rides are full and running at full capacity. The problem, like in this case, is that these kinds of assumptions usually have a zero chance of holding in the real world. Attraction vehicles *never* leave the load station 100% full all the time – groups like to ride together and not with other groups (I mean, who really wants to ride Splash Mountain with an utter stranger in your lap?) – and theaters are usually not 100% full as well. This is why the "Single-Rider Lines" (like on the Rocket Rods or WDW’s Test Track) work so well – there are always vacant seats that can be filled. It takes a lot of extra time to mix, match and break up groups just to get full cars. Which, in fact, is why all other amusement parks (including Cedar Point) send out partially filled vehicles. They get higher real-world capacity by sending out partially filled roller-coaster cars more quickly than having to wait to fill them up completely.

My point here is this: though CP operates on the same unrealistic capacity goals as everyone else, they are prone to pathetic load times and capacity decisions. When was the last time you saw six trains running on Gemini? Or five trains on the Mine Ride? Those are the capacities that CP is basing their assumptions on, so you can see how fast capacity declines when more and more trains are pulled off the tracks, as CP is wont to do. Second, have you noticed how long it takes CP operators to load Mantis or MF as compared to, say, The Incredible Hulk at IOA? Their load time is much slower, and thus cars are cycling through at a much slower pace, lowering the already lowered capacities. So when you get all excited because MaXair will cycle through 1000/hour (an already slow ride time), take in load time into account, and how many employees are available to work the ride, not to mention how many empty seats there will be when the ride starts moving. Those numbers add up fast, and so does the wait time as a result.

And so, I reiterate: plan on MaXair taking a big chunk out of your day.

Looks like someone didn't eat his wheaties today! :lol:
Yes I would rather be at any of The Walt Disney Parks any day, but Cedar point is the next best thing!
You want to talk about load times, try going to MGM Studios in peak season. I literally stood inline for THe Great movie ride for 2 hours!add the blistering heat and exhausting Humidity and you the makings of a disasterous day!
I will never go in peak season again, now we only go in either October, november or march :lol:
 

LoisMustDie

New Member
darthdarrel said:
Looks like someone didn't eat his wheaties today! :lol:
I apologize for the harshness of my post, but I just wanted to disspell CP's unnecessary hubris that they're the best at EVERYTHING. It just sickens me that they think they're the best park when they can't come up with one original idea, and instead wait for other parks to build INNOVATIVE rides so that CP can just waltz right in, make it 5 ft. taller, and claim it's the best. Yeah, now THERE'S something to be proud of. :rolleyes:

darthdarrel said:
Yes I would rather be at any of The Walt Disney Parks any day, but Cedar point is the next best thing!
I assume you've never been to Universal, Busch, or Paramount parks then?

darthdarrel said:
You want to talk about load times, try going to MGM Studios in peak season. I literally stood inline for THe Great movie ride for 2 hours!add the blistering heat and exhausting Humidity and you the makings of a disasterous day!
I will never go in peak season again, now we only go in either October, november or march :lol:
I fail to see why this has anything to do with load times. GMR is one of the fastest loaders on the planet...the wait you experienced was due to vast overcrowding, not slow load times.

And another thing...how sad is it when CP feels so overcrowded when they have the "highest capacity" out of any park? Shouldn't this make the park feel less crowded than, say, MGM (since MGM gets so many more people through the gates and has a much smaller capacity)?
 

JBSLJames

New Member
Let's not leave Southern Ohio's Park out of the mix. King's Island is a pretty darn good thrill park. I do not know how it is voted, but PKI has won the Golden Ticket award for the Best Kids area three years running (I think). I have to assume that WDW is in no way part of this voting group.

I would go to PKI over CP just to ride THE BEAST. Best ride I have ever been on - PERIOD.

Now cleanliness - Not good.

New Italian Job ride opens this week. Looks like a decent family ride, but PKI forums were hoping for a bigger thrill.

I've been a PKI ( or just King's Island) pass holder for nearly 17 years or almost half my life. Great place to spend evenings in the Summer and the Waterpark is great for a vacation day or two with the kids.

Just my 2 cents.
 

darthdarrel

New Member
LoisMustDie said:
I assume you've never been to Universal, Busch, or Paramount parks then?
I have not been to universal,cause face it, when torn between Universal and Disney, which place would I rather go? You said it Disney ofcourse LOL!
NOw Paramount I have been to Kings Island several times and Cedar point is a much better park. I get a season pass to Cedar point every year I just love it.
But as I said in my earlier post given the choice between Cedar point and Disney world theme parks I would choose Disney world any day! :wave:
 

Boo's Mom

New Member
I just saw Max Air on the news. I want to ride it!! :sohappy: :sohappy: :sohappy: Who wants to come get me from Virginia and take me to Cedar Point??











Any takers? :lookaroun





















I didn't think so...












That looks like fun!
 

dandaman

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
LoisMustDie said:
It just sickens me that they think they're the best park when they can't come up with one original idea

Magnum: First hypercoaster (over 200 feet tall)
Millennium Force: First gigacoaster (over 300 feet tall)
Top Thrill Dragster: First stratacoaster (over 400 feet tall)

"Copiers":
MF: Steel Dragon 2000 (8 feet higher)
TTD: Kingda Ka (36 feet higher, 8 m.p.h. faster)
So far, Magnum hasn't been copied, which is a good thing.
 

speck76

Well-Known Member
dandaman said:
Magnum: First hypercoaster (over 200 feet tall)
Millennium Force: First gigacoaster (over 300 feet tall)
Top Thrill Dragster: First stratacoaster (over 400 feet tall)

"Copiers":
MF: Steel Dragon 2000 (8 feet higher)
TTD: Kingda Ka (36 feet higher, 8 m.p.h. faster)
So far, Magnum hasn't been copied, which is a good thing.

Magnum was copied, by Cedar Fair themeselves.

I am not sure how you can count Steel Dragon as a copy, both it and Millenium Force opened the same year.

Finally, I am not sure you can count "height" as an innovation.....all CP has done was take an existing idea and make it bigger.....which is fairly simple. They have never been "first" with any ride concept.
 

mkt

When a paradise is lost go straight to Disney™
Premium Member
I've been to Cedar Point when visiting friends in Detroit and London, On.... kinda big, kinda ripoffish as far as spending is involved, BUT IT ROCKS!
 

dandaman

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
There are some additional innovations. Millennium Force had the first elevator cable lift system, and Top Thrill Dragster had the first catapult launching system.
However, technically, most parks don't really count as pioneering the technology, as it is usually the manufacturers who have the innovations (both above examples were built by Intamin, AG).
 

CleveRoks

Account Suspended
dandaman said:
There are some additional innovations. Millennium Force had the first elevator cable lift system, and Top Thrill Dragster had the first catapult launching system.
However, technically, most parks don't really count as pioneering the technology, as it is usually the manufacturers who have the innovations (both above examples were built by Intamin, AG).

Um actually you're wrong about the Top Thrill Dragster having the first 'catapult lunching system.' Magic Mountain in California beat Cedar Point to the punch when they built 'Superman.'

So you see, technically CP was a little behind.
 

CleveRoks

Account Suspended
dandaman said:
Magnum: First hypercoaster (over 200 feet tall)
Millennium Force: First gigacoaster (over 300 feet tall)
Top Thrill Dragster: First stratacoaster (over 400 feet tall)

"Copiers":
MF: Steel Dragon 2000 (8 feet higher)
TTD: Kingda Ka (36 feet higher, 8 m.p.h. faster)
So far, Magnum hasn't been copied, which is a good thing.

Seriously, GET A LIFE! :lol:

I mean, don't get me wrong I like CP ans all but it's not anything to really marvel at. The coasters are great, i'll admit that, but it all kinda gets mundane after a while due to the complete lack of imagination at CP.

I'll prolly go to CP once this summer and that will be PLENTY enough for me!
 

dandaman

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
CleveRoks said:
Um actually you're wrong about the Top Thrill Dragster having the first 'catapult lunching system.' Magic Mountain in California beat Cedar Point to the punch when they built 'Superman.'

So you see, technically CP was a little behind.

Superman: The Escape uses linear synchronous motors, not hydraulics.
ANYWAYS...
'Catapult lunching' sounds fun. :lol: ;)
"Well, you get your food, put it in a slingshot..."
 

ogryn

Well-Known Member
Xcelerator at Knott's Berry Farm was Intamin's first Rocket Coaster (or Accelerator Coaster as RCDB seem to call them), TTD was the second.
 

LoisMustDie

New Member
Sigh...Here we go again...

dandaman said:
Magnum: First hypercoaster (over 200 feet tall)
Millennium Force: First gigacoaster (over 300 feet tall)
Top Thrill Dragster: First stratacoaster (over 400 feet tall)
Ummm...note to genius: these were ALL based on already existing ride designs...hence NO INNOVATION. All you've done is prove my point on how CP can't come up with anything better than making an already existing design a little bit taller and claiming it's "the first of its kind in the world!" According to this inverted logic, every coaster in the world that's not an exact clone is "the first of its kind," so I can only give points to CP for faulty marketing logic.

dandaman said:
"Copiers":
MF: Steel Dragon 2000 (8 feet higher)
TTD: Kingda Ka (36 feet higher, 8 m.p.h. faster)
So far, Magnum hasn't been copied, which is a good thing.
1. SD2000 is not even close to having anything to do with the MF design. Do you even know what SD2000 is? It's design is closer to the Magnum than MF, for crying out loud! This is like saying that Expedition Everest is a copy of the Corkscrew because they have the same lift height. Gimme a break.
2. Coasters such as Wild Thing, Steel Force, Mamba, and Desperado are quite close to Magnum (since they were built by the same people), and are leagues closer to being Magnum copies than SK2000 is to baing a MF copy. And do you seriously think you're proving anything by saying that CP uses the same underhanded tactics as Six Flags? (Xcelerator: TTD: KK) No difference.

dandaman said:
There are some additional innovations. Millennium Force had the first elevator cable lift system, and Top Thrill Dragster had the first catapult launching system.
First off, they're not "additional," because there were none before these.

Second, doesn't RnRC have a catapult? I seem to recall a retraction of the train before the launch, and when sitting in the front you can clearly see a catapult-type thing zoom from one end of the launch area and under the train.
And MF did not invent the elevator cable lift. They've been used on ELEVATORS for over 100 years, and on many park rides such as Tower of Terror. Again, no innovation here.

So, that's absolutely no innovations for a park that claims to always have "the first of its kind" on every ride they build. How's THAT for false marketing? And people wonder why I don't like the attitude that permeates that place. (And through its thick-as-a-rock fans)
 

CleveRoks

Account Suspended
LoisMustDie said:
Sigh...Here we go again...


Ummm...note to genius: these were ALL based on already existing ride designs...hence NO INNOVATION. All you've done is prove my point on how CP can't come up with anything better than making an already existing design a little bit taller and claiming it's "the first of its kind in the world!" According to this inverted logic, every coaster in the world that's not an exact clone is "the first of its kind," so I can only give points to CP for faulty marketing logic.


1. SD2000 is not even close to having anything to do with the MF design. Do you even know what SD2000 is? It's design is closer to the Magnum than MF, for crying out loud! This is like saying that Expedition Everest is a copy of the Corkscrew because they have the same lift height. Gimme a break.
2. Coasters such as Wild Thing, Steel Force, Mamba, and Desperado are quite close to Magnum (since they were built by the same people), and are leagues closer to being Magnum copies than SK2000 is to baing a MF copy. And do you seriously think you're proving anything by saying that CP uses the same underhanded tactics as Six Flags? (Xcelerator: TTD: KK) No difference.


First off, they're not "additional," because there were none before these.

Second, doesn't RnRC have a catapult? I seem to recall a retraction of the train before the launch, and when sitting in the front you can clearly see a catapult-type thing zoom from one end of the launch area and under the train.
And MF did not invent the elevator cable lift. They've been used on ELEVATORS for over 100 years, and on many park rides such as Tower of Terror. Again, no innovation here.

So, that's absolutely no innovations for a park that claims to always have "the first of its kind" on every ride they build. How's THAT for false marketing? And people wonder why I don't like the attitude that permeates that place. (And through its thick-as-a-rock fans)

:lol: Atta boy!! AWESOME POST!

Im so sick and tired of people calling CP 'innovative' and you pretty much showed how they basically have no imagination.

I mean, it's not like CP is a bad park, but it's ridiculous to compare CP to places like Disney and suggest CP is just as innovative as Disney has been!

And yes, I do believe RocknRollercoaster does indeed have a 'catapult' system.

BTW, LoisMustDie: according to your profile you're 7 years old! :lol:
 

MouseMadness

Well-Known Member
CleveRoks said:
BTW, LoisMustDie: according to your profile you're 7 years old! :lol:

Well, he's certainly acting like it. :-\ Seriously, why don't we back off... I realize that we tend to argue about really stupid stuff, but this being a WDW fan site, let's at LEAST stick to arguing about that! :lol: Starting off replies with "Ummmm... (condescending) note to genius (flat out rude)" is completely unnecessary.

Just take it down a notch, okay? :wave:
 

coasterphil

Well-Known Member
The problem is, most of his facts are incorrect. Wild Thing, Mamba, and Steel Force were all made by Morgan, not Arrow which created Magnum. Also, Cedar Point used the same technology as Knott's Berry Farm did on Xcelerator because they are both owned by Cedar Fair so its nothing like Six Flags. Finally Knott's Berry farm was the first park to use a hydraulic catapault launch, which is totally different from the LSM System used on RnRc. The LSM system was actually created first for use on Superman Ultimate Escape at Magic Mountain.


Both this whole discussion is really a joke because no park is really innovative, its the ride design companies that are. Its just that Cedar Fair is more willing to take the risk on a new technology with its parks.
 

dandaman

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
^Exactly what I said... however, I didn't even realize what kind of feedback this would create...
Now, like I said before... ANYWAYS...
(And BTW... if you don't like the thread... DO NOT POST.)
 

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