Cast Member Pay & Labor Laws

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Im originally from Ontario too. By the end of the year Disney pay at WDW will start at $15/hr for most roles, some roles like housekeeping are already $16/hr. I think part of the issue is that minimum wage isn’t meant to support a family. If you want a house, a partner, a car, and two kids, then being a popcorn vendor on Main Street probably isn’t going to pay the bills. If you want to take public transit and have an apartment with a roommate then you’d be ok. I don’t think it’s a pay rate or cost of living issue, it’s a having a job that doesn’t match your lifestyle issue. And seeing how hard of a time Disney is having hiring, I think a lot of people realized that. That’s why they rely so heavily on CPs and CRPs, to help fill out the lower ranks.

The problem…and we can debate “blame”…is that Disney is still predominantly reliant on local, full time staff. They stretch college program as far as they can…but they aren’t impressive.

the issue there is that full time staff can’t realistically be paid lower than what is liveable in the market without all kinds of problems. And that’s never more apparent than now.

disney made a mistake laying everyone off last year. It made “financial sense”…but not labor sense. They could have paid them for a decade…or perhaps lowered the direct payments to keep them subsidized with government help.

cutting them loose was dumb. And now you reap the crops.

 

[CLBMN]

Did you see the previous articles I quoted?
Did you ever try, you know, just a simple google search?

Yes, still do not agree with your take on this. It is only one view on history etc.
We all know articles are biased to get an audience.
Are you mad because people don't agree with your opinions?
No reason to reprimand others for your issues.

 

[eliza61nyc]

Another stupid question, how does Disney compare to other theme parks in salary??

 

[Goofyernmost]

I always feel bad about that though @John park hopper . I mean not everyone can be a doctor, lawyer, indian chief (lol those of us old enough to remember that rhyme). My very talented niece wants to be a broadway actress/singer. now of course I think she's talented enough but I give her the entire picture. she's picked a crazy competitive field where the majority don't make it big, she needs to have a back up plan.
Some body has to be the English major, the literature major, etc. we need those guys also. they are what gives life "flavor and color" in my opinion. what do we do with those poor kids, do we say sorry kid you better get a business degree instead?

I don't see that as anything new. It was true when I was a kid and as an adult I wanted nothing more than making sure that my children did better then I did. Had they chosen a path that I felt was risky I would have done everything I could to, if all else failed, guilt them into getting that education. I knew the restrictions that I had because I had an associates degree in Business Administration . At the time it was the highest educational level in the history of my entire family. I was the first one to even consider college, much less graduate. Also at the time I was able to live comfortably, but not with anything that could be called wealth. My wife over educated by obtaining two Masters Degrees. One in Nursing and one in Gerontology. Social degrees that had limited need for high level without a Doctorate. She tried for her Doctorate in Gerontology, but by the time she finished her unapproved Dissertation her own old age prevented completion. Early into it, my Associates did open doors for me but by the time my career got me to just below the higher levels, Associates Degrees where equal to stating that you got you finally got your high school GED while you were in prison for Embezzlement.

Both my daughters obtained BS Degrees. One in Geology and One in Political Economics. The Geology major married a BS Degree in Computer Science and quickly obtained a very good job in IT, she decided that she wanted to be a very conservative housekeeper and Mother and homeschooler. The other got a job in college finance and is doing very well and is primarily the support of her High School graduate husband. He also works full time and contributes to the household expenses, but probably 40%. She has one son that is currently enrolled in NCU Charlotte but because of Covid has been able to build a semi-career in retail working for Lowe's because he has had to do his education online for his freshman year. At age 19 he was promoted to a supervisor and all of a sudden he is wondering if his obvious superiority to everyone means that he doesn't need that degree and could make it big without it. The curse of early success. It is deceiving. On the other side, one is too young at this point (9), her bother and sister are on line college students at East Carolina University with no real goals in mind, but going because it's that or move out of home and be on their own.

My parents were shocked, but happy, when I came home and told them I was accepted at a two year college. They didn't even know I had applied. My wife and myself never pushed either of them to go to college, but, they both say now that they just assumed that was the next step after high school. The spent their High School Years doing whatever was necessary to do well and thankfully got buckets of scholarships and attended quality schools. Their children want only to get a diploma and my guess is that by the time they get there Bachelors Degrees, Masters will be absolutely necessary to live comfortably. The kids lives have been so easy and without any need not supplied that they are complacent and would rather play video games than actually participate in life. They think that it takes very little effort to have everything they want. I have a 21 year old grandson that is only working 20 hours per week in a convivence store and takes the rest of the week to recover because he is so tired. The money they earn is just for toys.

So that was a lot of words to say that nothing happens that hasn't happened before from generation to generation.

 

[jloucks]

You know, with Medicaire for all, we could tolerate a lower minimum wage. Just sayin'.

What is happening now, is these companies, Disney included, pay folks so little that the taxpayer (us) picks up the healthcare tab anyway. ...or the sick folks just hurry up and die.

Low wages and high-dollar healthcare just don't go together very well.

 

[jloucks]

The problem…and we can debate “blame”…is that Disney is still predominantly reliant on local, full time staff. They stretch college program as far as they can…but they aren’t impressive.

the issue there is that full time staff can’t realistically be paid lower than what is liveable in the market without all kinds of problems. And that’s never more apparent than now.

disney made a mistake laying everyone off last year. It made “financial sense”…but not labor sense. They could have paid them for a decade…or perhaps lowered the direct payments to keep them subsidized with government help.

cutting them loose was dumb. And now you reap the crops.

Letting them go was a weird move.

When you pay people low wages, it often means they are working for reasons beyond money.

• Loyalty
• Vacation
• Healthcare
• Sick time
• Retirement
• Flexibility
• Respect
• Enjoyment
• Personal Development
• Relationships/Friendships
• Work Life Balance

You know how you rid yourself of pesky loyalty right quick? How you lose respect? Shatter relationships? Tell folks to off even tho you could easily keep them on the payroll.

Also consider if you as an organization don't offer all of the above, then losing some is extra impactful.

 

[Kamikaze]

Yes, still do not agree with your take on this. It is only one view on history etc.
We all know articles are biased to get an audience.
Are you mad because people don't agree with your opinions?
No reason to reprimand others for your issues.

A couple of the things I linked to quote the actual LAWS and the supporting documents of those laws. Thats not biased, thats how the law is written.

I'm not mad at all. But this isn't 'opinion.' This is verifiable fact.

 

[flynnibus]

A couple of the things I linked to quote the actual LAWS and the supporting documents of those laws. Thats not biased, thats how the law is written.

"how its written"? Yet every article you cited don't use the law to support their postulation - instead use speech quotes to make the point.

The articles you posted do not cite the actual law - they are essays that cite FDR quotes from speeches and other period efforts to support their position on the intent of FDR and the move behind the law. They don't make the argument the law is undeniably something - because the language doesn't support that.

And your own cites point out huge variations that undermine the veracity of your view - that the wage's power varies based on the type of househould it is supporting.

 

[LAKid53]

It's a poorly constructed sentence, but I'm assuming you were capable of taking the meaning.



The facets of running a business are irrelevant here. Instead, the correct subject to that claim would be economics. American teachings of economics are, by and large useless cold war propaganda with no real value but have an undue amount of influence on an international scale. Having studied it, I've discovered that it's essentially astrology cloaked in pseudo-academic language.

So, where did you study macro and micro economics? Because the concept of supply and demand and its impact on pricing precedes post WWII...by centuries.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

So, where did you study macro and micro economics? Because the concept of supply and demand and its impact on pricing precedes post WWII...by centuries.

True…and not To go down the well…but the market is steered by controls/interests that produce results that would not be otherwise determined by the micro or macro conditions otherwise.

 

[Heppenheimer]

Not at all. It's a very multi pronged approach.
So I'm going to repeat some things that are working here in Philadelphia. Remember this is the 5th largest city but we have the highest% of folks living in poverty.
One thing we did is used our federal stimulus money to help move people out of those positions. Home healthcare workers got money and help to become nursers aides AND temple university is helping them become RN. That's 600 folks who now are no longer stuck in low wage positions.
They also started a program that is helping servers become tradesmen (we have an aging infrastructure that needs plumbers/pipefitters) Haven't heard how that's going and we are trying to address the affordable rent issue.

I don't know the specifics of the new contract, but I heard the salary has been pumped up to 15/hr. So did they also talk about increasing the chances for advancement so they are in the same position 20 years from now??

I haven't lived in the Philadelphia area regularly since the late 1990s (grew up in the region), and lets just say that even back then, things weren't in great shape. I can only imagine the state of the infrastructure back now...

... flip forward to 2014 after living in Europe for several years, when I rode SEPTA for the first time in about 10 years. I almost wept thinking over the comparison to Deutsche Bahn.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I haven't lived in the Philadelphia area regularly since the late 1990s (grew up in the region), and lets just say that even back then, things weren't in great shape. I can only imagine the state of the infrastructure back now...

... flip forward to 2014 after living in Europe for several years, when I rode SEPTA for the first time in about 10 years. I almost wept thinking over the comparison to Deutsche Bahn.

More striking is that the per mile cost to build, operate and maintain Deutsche Bahn is probably a fraction of SEPTA’s cost.

 

[eliza61nyc]

I haven't lived in the Philadelphia area regularly since the late 1990s (grew up in the region), and lets just say that even back then, things weren't in great shape. I can only imagine the state of the infrastructure back now...

... flip forward to 2014 after living in Europe for several years, when I rode SEPTA for the first time in about 10 years. I almost wept thinking over the comparison to Deutsche Bahn.

Lol we joke that our infrastructure is as old as Benjamin Franklin. And Septa is probably the better maintained.

Our underground pipes are old and now bursting and sink holes. Pipe fitters are making crazy money, jeez wish I could get some training

 

[Dreaming of Disney World]

Yes, they do get minimum wage. Remember though minimum wage and a livable wage are not the same thing.

Here in the states many jobs are by design entry level, low wage jobs. They are not jobs that people can live, have a family, go on vacation with. They use to be jobs the youngsters did to introduce them to the working world. The problem is we got lazy, people that now pump gas and flip hamburgers want to be paid 30, 40 thousand dollars.

Now I live in the North East coast of the United States. Anyone who works as a cashier at Walmart and thinks they are going to be able to live comfortably in NYC is insane. If you pump gas at Wawa or work at six flags, I don't care how many hours, no that does not entitle some one to have a "livable" wage.

So it's a combination of employer providing a competitive wage and the employee working to get the better jobs.

Why should someone working not be entitled to a livable wage? Who cares if they are pumping gas or working at Six Flags. They're still working! Everyone deserves to be able to afford basic needs in life. Your point of view is really heartless.

 

[Lilofan]

Why should someone working not be entitled to a livable wage? Who cares if they are pumping gas or working at Six Flags. They're still working! Everyone deserves to be able to afford basic needs in life. Your point of view is really heartless.

Livable wage is good but as a consumer get ready to pay for a higher priced product. Higher labor costs gets passed to you and me. That's business logic 101.

 

[Cesar R M]

Here's the math behind the discussion:

Background: Text in gray is an email from a listener named Sue. It’s a response to a show we did off an Orlando Sentinel article about Mike Beaver, Tomorrowland CM who lives in a motel and commutes 45-minutes each way to his job in Tomorrowland. Mike makes $13.02 per hour.

Text in blue is my set of show notes to points raised in the letter.

Hi Len,

Just listened to some of the most recent podcasts on band camp.......we drove back and forth to NYC from Orlando and you and Jim really helped to entertain us on a rather dull drive.

One of the recent ones you and Jim were talking about the cast member who spends a lot of time getting to his job on the bus, I saw his story on the local news a few weeks ago. And I was interested in your view point about a living wage. We are originally from one of what I like to call the welfare states/city NYC where this very issue is a hot topic. I am not sure what a living wage is and what the entitlement should be.

For the record, as you’d expect, I’m generally a “what do the data say?” guy when it comes to policy and politics. But everyone’s outlook on these things has a political leaning. Mine is basically the love child of Angela Merkel and Paul Krugman. I’m a liberal.

Let’s talk about a living wage. More information is here: http://livingwage.mit.edu/pages/about

The living wage is the minimum income standard that, if met, draws a very fine line between the financial independence of the working poor and the need to seek out public assistance or suffer consistent and severe housing and food insecurity.

The living wage model is an alternative measure of basic needs. It is a market-based approach that draws upon geographically specific expenditure data related to a family’s likely minimum food, childcare, health insurance, housing, transportation, and other basic necessities (e.g. clothing, personal care items, etc.) costs. The living wage draws on these cost elements and the rough effects of income and payroll taxes to determine the minimum employment earnings necessary to meet a family’s basic needs while also maintaining self-sufficiency.

The living wage model is a ‘step up’ from poverty as measured by the poverty thresholds but it is a small ‘step up’, one that accounts for only the basic needs of a family.

The living wage model does not allow for what many consider the basic necessities enjoyed by many Americans. It does not budget funds for:

• Pre-prepared meals or those eaten in restaurants
• Entertainment
• Leisure time for unpaid vacations or holidays
• A financial means for planning for the future through savings and investment or for the purchase of capital assets (e.g. provisions for retirement or home purchases).

The living hourly wage for one adult is $11.51 in Osceola and Orange counties. So Mike makes $1.51/hour more than that, around $60/week or $3,100 per year.
For two adults both working full-time, it’s $9.06/hour each.
For two adults with one full-time and one part-time it’s $12.08.
For two adults and one child it’s $13.54 per adult
For one adult and one child is $24.07.
Those numbers are interesting, because they combine with Disney’s hourly wage to tell you that Disney thinks of front-line customer service as something that a household of “one or two people with no dependents” does. Because that’s what the pay can support.

Do I think an excellent attitude and work ethic should be rewarded? Yes I do, merit increases is the way to go, but many times unions prevent that......not sure if this is the case within disney.

Merit raises and unions is an interesting idea, because when we think of unions and wages, we think primarily of collective bargaining, which is on the opposite end of ‘merit raises’.

There are lots of studies on the wage effects of unions. The results are generally predictable by political affiliation. And here I’m using the political affiliation rankings of https://mediabiasfactcheck.com. You can look up there where your favorite news outlet sits on the political spectrum.

The National Bureau of Economic Research is one of many organizations rated “least biased” by MediaBiasFactCheck. And it happens that the NBER has a number of studies on the effect of unions and wages. In one 2002 study of 17 countries including the U.S., by David Blanchflower and Alex Bryson, it was reported that unions raise wages about 12% higher than they would be otherwise. http://www.nber.org/papers/w9395

That’s in line with a 2013 report from the Bureau of Labor Statistics that looked at U.S. union and non-union hourly wages annually from 2001 to 2011. It showed that hourly wages for unionized workers were 18-24% higher than non-union jobs. https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2013/04/art2full.pdf

So there’s some indication that even if unions prevent merit increases, the overall effect of unions is higher wages for workers.

So I checked with the BLS to see if they could tell me what the average hourly wage is for non-union theme park workers. It turns out that they actually track this too (https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes393091.htm). And the average wage in 2016 for the quarter-million non-union theme park workers in the U.S. was around $10.58.

Note that that’s less than the living hourly wage in WDW. In fact, the 75th percentile wage is $11.38, still under the living hourly wage for one adult.

So while we can’t know what Disney would set wages at without a union, and we don’t know what Mike’s wages would be without a union and just based on his personal merit, there’s some evidence that Disney’s overall wages would be lower without the union.

All of that being said how much more are you willing to pay for admission and meals on property? Because the increases have to come from somewhere.

This is a great question.

Around 37,000 WDW workers are represented by the unions. http://money.cnn.com/2014/02/11/news/companies/disney-workers-union/index.html

Let’s say we wanted to get Mike to where he could get married to another CM and support a kid on a living wage. We’d need to bump up the Mike’s wage by $0.52/hour. Let’s assume that all 37,000 union workers get the same wage, they work 2080 hours per year, and they all need the $0.52 raise.

That’s an additional cost of 37,000 x 2080 x 0.52 = $40,019,200 per year

According to Trefis.com, a site that breaks down SEC reports, Disney’s domestic parks made $15.4 billion in 2016. 2/3rds of Disney’s theme parks are in Orlando, the vast majority of its hotel rooms, and all of its water parks. Let’s say 75% of its domestic theme park income - around $11.5 billion - comes from WDW.

https://www.trefis.com/stock/dis/mo...1dc8d8f6232d98165778fd8d&from=widget:forecast

$40 million is about 1/3rd of 1% of $11.5 billion, so Disney’s prices would need to go up by that amount in order to cover this wage increase.

A bottle of water would rise in price from $3.00 to $3.01. A bottle of Coke would similarly rise from $3.50 to $3.51.

An adult dinner buffet at Biergarten would rise from $40 to $40.14.

A room at Pop Century during a peak weekend night currently costs $208. That would increase by $0.73.

One thing we in Orange County could do would be to provide lower cost housing, subsidized so that this CM could get out of that hotel room. As for his one hour bus ride, that was my commute in NYC everyday.......I cannot get to excited about that.

This is an interesting scenario. If a company doesn’t provide a living wage to its full-time workers, taxpayers subsidies can help. It’s similar to what we see with Walmart, where a substantial percentage of their workers receive taxpayer subsidies.

Lastly I am not sure these entry level jobs are or were meant to be careers and the wage is not meant to support someone.

Part of this seems to be a true assumption: the median tenure for all service workers in the US, according to the BLS, is around 3 years.

Also, we can look at the wages and say “Your paycheck is telling you that this is an entry-level job.” You can see by the living wage analysis that the job pays enough for one person not to regularly depend on government assistance. It doesn’t pay enough to raise a child or care for anyone else.

Plus, you know, some portion of these workers have spouses with much better-paying jobs. I know of a few CMs for whom this is literally their ‘retirement job’. They own their home and make enough money here to pay their food and utility bills each month, so they don’t have to use their savings.

On the other hand, the average job tenure for Disney is around 8 years. So clearly, lots of people are making this their job. (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...SNEYWAGES20_1_wage-scales-unions-disney-world)

Why is the average tenure 8 years? It could be that Disney pays higher-than-average wages for the area. In Orlando, for example, restaurant workers average $12.53/hour and service workers average $11.99. (https://www.bls.gov/regions/southea...tionalemploymentandwages_orlando_20170608.pdf)

Our property taxes are pretty high in Orange County so I am not sure where the money could come from to help on the housing issue. Maybe 1/2% in sales tax could help fund this. It is an issue every large city is coping with.....affordable housing but it needs to be done in such a way that it just doesn't turn into tenements. In brooklyn there is a development called starrett city which is 40 years old and as nice as it was when it was built. The criteria for getting an apartment was that you had to have a job, there was no welfare recipients. It has really worked.

This is an interesting question too. I’d ask it this way: Disney made $2.8 billion in profit off its theme parks in 2016. Why do taxpayers have to subsidize Disney’s employees so those employees can earn a living? Shouldn’t that fall on Disney’s shareholders and customers?

I laugh everytime that groups that defend corporations to prevent "socialism". Are the ones who demand that the taxpayer/government takes the burden of their miserable non living wages.

Also "merit" salaries are an oxymoron (or whatever its called). Because it always be dependent on the higher up or manager you get. A bad manager will eat your efforts and claim they are the ones boosting efficiency and thus get the bonus assigned to the worker who is doing the most effort.
Not to mention that large companies love to give temporal bonuses and denying pay raises.

 

[Cesar R M]

It's a bit more complicated than "getting" away with. Let's go with your example, retail store A sells a children's product, they jave calculated the cost of running a business (retail rent, utilities, purchasing product) along with wages for 2 employees.
Now they have done their homework, they know exactly what John q public will pay for children shoes and they charge enough to pay his entry level employees a few dollars over minimum wage. Oh wait but now they want double that because they want "livable" wages. So he raises the price of his product 30% because money doesn't just fall from the sky, now we have a problem because the customer isn't going to purchase his product at that price. What does this Despicable business owner do??
Lol someone mentioned that if he can't afford to pay livable wages he shouldn't be in business. Well that's a great solution.

These kinds of posts are hilarious, reminds me of this famous "old boomer" complainer... thinking all the things that worked 50 years ago are still working today or with the same prices.

 

[Cesar R M]

Reminds me of the famous talk about "love how corporations inflate, tweet and applaud those "critical jobs".. until wage talks start. Then they blame the workers for being "lazy" for not wanting to slave away for less than livable wage.

 

[Cesar R M]

Yes Disney is making money and the shareholders are making money off of their investments. Thats how it works. A business needs to cover all costs, be profitable, have money in reserve and pay out to those who took a risk to invest with them. Disney could pay entry workers $$$$(place any amount here) an hour and everyone would/ could afford any livable state they wish to be in. But how much is that worker worth? A wage is contingent upon what they do, how they do the job, which makes them valuable to hold that position over time. How irreplaceable they are as they improve skills and show work ethics improves their value. Job performance is rated as they have time invested in the job and the value of that person rises to where the company gives raises, bonuses and more responsibilities, even by giving better positions. Paying out an exorbitant wage to someone whose capability and whose future value is unknown is reckless. Thats why starting wages are low until you prove your value. An attraction worker doesnt have the skills or value to Disney as a person in an upper level position. Increasing pay will cause Disney to have to increase costs to cover that. Then hear these folks who want to pay out huge minimum wage .clamor about how expensive a trip is.
I am a business owner who started working minimum wage when it was paltry. Not a living wage. $1.10 an hour. I saw what others above me were making and busted my a@@ to get where I am today. Still working my A@@ off to support my family. Dont insult me by saying I'm unable to connect with those who arent making what I am at this point because I was there and made it by working hard for some pretty harsh people, at poor wages and businesses that crapped on me until I could work past that time in my life. It was worth it. Nothing is going to come by sitting back and expecting it to be given to you. You make yourself worth what you are paid. If Disney cant give you the wage you require than its not the job for you.

Just look at what the kids are making coming out of trade schools now. Carpenters, mechanics, plumbers, electricians and so many others. And with little debt compared to college grads. The available jobs are for their choosing. Once everyone bought into the idea that it was a degree you needed to be successful, not thats not the best option for kids.

Technically, a lot of jobs nowadays require titles just for the sake of them.
Hell, I've seen jobs that require the equivalent of Doctorate with tons of money in papers, certifications, et.c. and still giving entry wage. Everyone laughs at those in my UNI.. but yet.. XD

 

[lentesta]

Livable wage is good but as a consumer get ready to pay for a higher priced product. Higher labor costs gets passed to you and me. That's business logic 101.

Or they could reduce their level of stock buybacks and dividends. Give less money to investors and more to labor.

In 2019, they needed $40 million to bump up labor to a living wage. They spent $3.6 billion on stock buy-backs around that time. So they could've spent a little over 1% if my math is correct, to do that, and still had $3.56 billion for stock buybacks.

I don't think allocating that 1% to labor would've put the company in an investor-led death spiral. Let's put it this way: if that 1% would've made a material difference - if the company is on that kind of knife's edge - then something else is wrong.