Can we now have a real discussion on Marvel in DHS?

[PirateFrank]

It's really become quite evident to me that IP synergy with total immersion of a park guest is the current success formula for theme parks. While one can argue that all you need is a good attraction and that the story, characters and merchandise matter not, recent successes by both Disney (Cars Land) and Universal (WWoHP) suggest otherwise. The characters *do* matter. The land and world they exist in *does* matter. If you put all of that together in a way that embraces the park guest, it's a hit. Even done loosely, it works...case in point, the various lands at the MK/DL.

But regardless, for such a thing to work, the characters have to be there. The story has to be there. The park guest has to *want* to be there in the action, interacting with the action.

So having said all of that, this past summer has been very interesting. The newly renovated DCA seems to have done more to expose the failings of DHS in a *big* way, than anything else. While there have been great suggestions here, with expansions of Pixar, Lucas, etc....It is a real head scratcher, to me, that Disney is not taking the admittedly daunting legal steps necessary in massively exploiting it's most valuable potential park asset...Marvel!

The following article was published at the Motley Fool last week:
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2012/08/09/disney-just-became-a-screaming-buy.aspx

It's clear that Disney is doubling down on the MCU (Marvel Cinematic Universe)...and why shouldn't they. The movies, up until this point, have grossed in excess of $3B. In addition to securing Joss Whedon for the Avengers, they've locked him up for a TV series. Actors from the various movies have all been contracted for multiple movies....some have signed on for not just 1 or 2 sequels, as is the general norm, but for 6-9 movies. Case in point, Samuel Jackson's original contract was for 9 movies as Nick Fury. Marc Ruffalo has signed a 6-movie deal to portray Bruce Banner. Disney/Marvel Pictures believes this franchise has serious legs, beyond any other franchise out there. Compare this to Harry Potter. 8 movies has translated into a hugely successful land at USO. The MCO has already logged 7 movies, and there's at least 4-5 more announced -- with more to come.

If this isn't the true answer to HP. The true potter swatter. Nothing else is. Seriously...

Considering 7 movies have translated into more than $3B of Marvel studio revenue -- and considering the potential future revenue from future movies and further considering the absolutely HUGE potential for marketing of merchandise (something Avatar simply can not compete with), it really seems incredibly short-sighted for Disney to not consider any and all options for securing these characters for use in Florida.

Now, I am fully expecting there to be a handful of posts in this thread with people expressing exasperation and frustration that this topic is being brought up -- since it admittedly has been 'done before'. The legal roadblocks are significant...and most people who sit on the 'con' side of this discussion will generally and summarily dismiss the possibility of Marvel in WDW as legally and therefore physically impossible. However, I feel that recent news and events warrants a revisiting of this topic. For those that disagree, I apologize in advance. However, lets try to keep this discussion respectful and to point.


Discuss...

 

[lebeau]

There is no point discussing something that is not going to happen. Universal isn't giving up the rights and Disney's not going to buy them back.

Do we really need to flog this dead horse yet again?

 

[Master Yoda]

WDW will not get the Avengers until the financial upside exceeds the legal costs to make it happen.

 

[fosse76]

The only thing they can do legally is buy the rights from Universal...and that money is best spent elsewhere.

 

[t3techcom18]

To put it respectfully instead of the above first reply...

I love the Marvel universe and I'd think incorporating the MCU in the parks would be the Potter Swatter. Hell, I discussed with a friend the thought of having Innoventions as the Stark Expo! It would be really awesome, BUT....

The legalities of it are quite clear. Universal owns the theme park rights to Marvel characters and if WDW were to use them, all legal hell would break loose. It was tough enough for them to allow the Avengers themed monorail with all the points they had to clear up.

It ain't gunna happen anytime soon sadly.

 

[PirateFrank]

That's actually the point I'm making. Is it really better spent elsewhere? The responses so far are exactly as I've predicted..."it's not legally possible, move along, nothing to see here."

The point I am making is that there *is* something to see here. This franchise has the potential to be larger than any other franchise ever created....the potential financial energy here is huge.

At what point will universal want to sit on merchandise property that lines Disney's pockets? At what point will disney want to watch attractions across town result in turnstile revenue in unversal's pockets?

 

[tomman710]

Universal isn't giving up the rights and Disney's not going to buy them back.

I disagree. EVERYTHING has a price. I'm sure when Disney purchased Marvel their executives/laywers drew up a ballpark "price" they would be happy with if the conversation came up.

However, I do agree it's not worth talking about, because while possible it'll very likely never happen because if I were Universal I would make the buy out astronomical for the Mouse.

I will say, though, that I think it's a discussion the Mouse should at least have with Universal to see where their heads are at because in terms of teen oriented properties with legs, that's one of the few they have. In fact I am sure they did this already and most likely it was a two minute conversation like this;

"Hey we purchased Marvel, what'll it take to buy out your contract?" asks Mouse.

Universal slides a piece of paper across the desk. The Mouse looks at it.

"Ok, never mind, keep writing us checks for royalties, that works," concludes Mouse.

 

[lebeau]

You are getting these kinds of responses because we have had this conversation to death. It doesn't change anything.

If Marvel is really the biggest franchise of all times, why on earth would Universal let it go?

If you think Universal is even remotely concerned with "lining Disney's pockets" (or vice versa) you don't understand how these companies work. They are more than happy to let competitors make money as long as they are lining their own pockets as well. The studios have been working this way since the movie biz first began.

Unless something changes, there is no point to having this discussion again.

Nothing has changed.

 

[t3techcom18]

Yeah, the above poster hit it on the head. I truly believe the Marvel franchise has enormous financial prospects in the parks but it depends on whether or not Disney and Universal cooperate. It would be a LOT to move around before anything here could happen, plus, the decision of bringing it in-house vs. getting paid in royalties. It's the way of the business world sadly. *shrugs*

 

[lebeau]

I disagree. EVERYTHING has a price. I'm sure when Disney purchased Marvel their executives/laywers drew up a ballpark "price" they would be happy with if the conversation came up.

Sure, there is a price. And Universal's price for Marvel (which would surely include enough to retheme the area and possibly buy another lucrative lisence) is bound to be more than Disney is willing to pay.

With the success of the Avengers movie, that price has only gone up.

I will say, though, that I think it's a discussion the Mouse should at least have with Universal to see where their heads are at because in terms of teen oriented properties with legs, that's one of the few they have. In fact I am sure they did this already and most likely it was a two minute conversation like this;

"Hey we purchased Marvel, what'll it take to buy out your contract?" asks Mouse.

Universal slides a piece of paper across the desk. The Mouse looks at it.

"Ok, never mind, keep writing us checks for royalties, that works," concludes Mouse.

I'm sure it has been looked into by both sides. And I'm sure it will be explored again. It may even happen someday. But not until something big changes.

 

[PirateFrank]

I disagree. EVERYTHING has a price. I'm sure when Disney purchased Marvel their executives/laywers drew up a ballpark "price" they would be happy with if the conversation came up.

However, I do agree it's not worth talking about, because while possible it'll very likely never happen because if I were Universal I would make the buy out astronomical for the Mouse.

I will say, though, that I think it's a discussion the Mouse should at least have with Universal to see where their heads are at because in terms of teen oriented properties with legs, that's one of the few they have. In fact I am sure they did this already and most likely it was a two minute conversation like this;

"Hey we purchased Marvel, what'll it take to buy out your contract?" asks Mouse.

Universal slides a piece of paper across the desk. The Mouse looks at it.

"Ok, never mind, keep writing us checks for royalties, that works," concludes Mouse.

lol...

I agree to an extent. I don't think the number is astronomical...and I do believe that both parties have discussed this number. I think the number is beyond disney's reach right now....but again, $3 BILLION in revenue with several movies to go might in fact change their minds here.

As been stated before in other discussions, Universal is *not* holding all of the cards here. Universal doesn't want to put future capital improvements into an entire section in one of its theme parks, with properties it does not own. It does not want to allow it's direct competitor access to it's merchandise revenue every year to certify it's licensed sales. Eventually, Universal is going to want to jettison this IP and move on to something that allows for future growth.

 

[t3techcom18]

Err...they already DID do a capital improvement (modernizing Spider-Man) and if I remember correctly, all merch sales go to Disney directly, hence why the only Marvel prescence you see in the parks is merchandise.

At one point they would jettison it but when and how are two very big questions. Also, as some other sites pointed out, Transformers use the exact same layout that Spider-Man has. It was thought that Transformers would be the replacement but now they are supposedly building Transformers at SS44....well that just made things interesting.

 

[lebeau]

I agree to an extent. I don't think the number is astronomical...and I do believe that both parties have discussed this number. I think the number is beyond disney's reach right now....but again, $3 BILLION in revenue with several movies to go might in fact change their minds here.

If anything, it raised the price.

Don't forget, Disney can do whatever it wants with Marvel all over the globe. They can live with Universal owning the Orlando rights while they develop it in CA and overseas. Outside of WDW fans, this really isn't a big deal.

As been stated before in other discussions, Universal is *not* holding all of the cards here. Universal doesn't want to put future capital improvements into an entire section in one of its theme parks, with properties it does not own.

Universal doesn't own Harry Potter.

It does not want to allow it's direct competitor access to it's merchandise revenue every year to certify it's licensed sales.

That's ridiculous. They really don't care. It's not a big deal.

Eventually, Universal is going to want to jettison this IP and move on to something that allows for future growth.

Based on what? Its increased popularity?

 

[danlb_2000]

Err...they already DID do a capital improvement (modernizing Spider-Man) and if I remember correctly, all merch sales go to Disney directly, hence why the only Marvel prescence you see in the parks is merchandise.

Disney gets a percentage of the merch, not all of it.

 

[PirateFrank]

With the success of the Avengers movie, that price has only gone up.

And so has the number Disney is willing to pay.

We're not talking about baseball cards here. There's very specific valuation methods that would be utilized when both universal and disney consider the price here. Some of those valuation methods might consider future revenue, however some might consider replacement cost. It's not going to be a case of "Yo, Dis, this avengers movie is doin real good, yo! show me the money"

But not until something big changes.

Yeah, $3Billion plus aint big.

 

[GrumpyFan]

That's actually the point I'm making. Is it really better spent elsewhere? The responses so far are exactly as I've predicted..."it's not legally possible, move along, nothing to see here."

The point I am making is that there *is* something to see here. This franchise has the potential to be larger than any other franchise ever created....the potential financial energy here is huge.

At what point will universal want to sit on merchandise property that lines Disney's pockets? At what point will disney want to watch attractions across town result in turnstile revenue in unversal's pockets?

It's hard to measure potential really, and how it will translate into theme park payback. However, I would agree that there does seem to be a lot more potential in this franchise than say blue aliens. But, that's kind of a low blow... (Sorry, couldn't resist).

While I agree that it would be great to see Marvel at WDW either in an existing park/area, or perhaps in some other new environment, I just don't see Disney dropping that kind of money to buy out Universal, nor do I see them giving it up (easily). Keep in mind that as long as Marvel proves successful, it also lines Universal's pockets. I think Disney's best option here is to use the license to their full extent and build Marvel based attractions elsewhere. I've mentioned it before, but they could also sell those newly developed Marvel-based attractions to Universal (Orlando) for additional licensing revenue. It might hurt their attendance a slight bit at WDW, but IF they have something strong to draw the die-hard Disney fans as well, then it shouldn't hurt them in an adverse way. I think this would only work if it were done once or twice. So, say they built an Iron Man attraction, at Shanghai Disneyland, then maybe another at DLP, they could then sell it to Universal, but only after the other two had opened. It would help with development costs and future revenue.

 

[MattC]

Be careful saying it will never happen guys. Never is a long time. While I agree there are many roadblocks to this happening you never know for sure. There are a million ways things could happen between Uni and Disney and one of those may lead to a Marvel themed land.

 

[misterID]

I haven't seen any evidence Disney wants Marvel in WDW, outside advertising their films, let alone wanting to counter Potter. Disney will use Marvel in their parks, just not in WDW.

And there are many things to use in the WDW parks that would be easier and just as financially beneficial than Marvel without the roadbloacks: Pixar, Lucas, Muppets, Jules Verne, etc... and *duh-duh-duh* original Disney material for the parks.

 

[lebeau]

And so has the number Disney is willing to pay.

Maybe. Maybe not.

The Orlando rights are only valuable to Disney if Disney wants to build Marvel-themed attractions in Orlando. Even with the success of Avengers, Disney may not be all that much more interested right now. They have a lot of other things they can concentrate on first.

The Marvel stuff will happen elsewhere.

We're not talking about baseball cards here. There's very specific valuation methods that would be utilized when both universal and disney consider the price here. Some of those valuation methods might consider future revenue, however some might consider replacement cost. It's not going to be a case of "Yo, Dis, this avengers movie is doin real good, yo! show me the money"

Yeah, $3Billion plus aint big.

It's a big box office figure that has very little impact on Marvel at WDW.

Do you really not understand the current situation or do you just want Marvel at WDW that badly?

 

[lebeau]

Be careful saying it will never happen guys. Never is a long time. While I agree there are many roadblocks to this happening you never know for sure. There are a million ways things could happen between Uni and Disney and one of those may lead to a Marvel themed land.

I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen someday. But for the foreseeable future, it is extremely unlikely.