TravisMT81
Well-Known Member
aren't you generous, I would have made it 29. :lol:
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California Adventure????
- Thread starter SykedOwt
- Start date
aren't you generous, I would have made it 29. :lol:
dianedisney
New Member
Pleassssssssse...give me a break!
I would like anyone, I say again....ANYONE, who can name a theme park, amusement park, any park that has opened and never been improved upon or added to??????? Do you honestly think DL opened the way we see it today? :hammer: I don't think so. Every Six Flags park has added new and better rides. So why, why, why, are people so set on putting down DCA.
There is a wonderful work out there and I believe it is....optimistic. As the old expression goes; "Some see the glass half empty, I see it as being half full". Have a Disney Day!!!:wave:
I would like anyone, I say again....ANYONE, who can name a theme park, amusement park, any park that has opened and never been improved upon or added to??????? Do you honestly think DL opened the way we see it today? :hammer: I don't think so. Every Six Flags park has added new and better rides. So why, why, why, are people so set on putting down DCA.
There is a wonderful work out there and I believe it is....optimistic. As the old expression goes; "Some see the glass half empty, I see it as being half full". Have a Disney Day!!!:wave:
TravisMT81
Well-Known Member
true but DL started with true vision and a solid "foundation". I think they dug the DCA idea out of the waste basket.
DLMAGICDARREN
New Member
Re: Pleassssssssse...give me a break!
I love your optomism Diane, but it's easy to answser your question.
Nobody in 1955 was saying, it will get better, just give it time. Disneyland was a sucess from the beginning. Despite what the critics thought. (I'm not talking about black Wedensday which I'm well aware of, but the overall sucess of the park that amazed sceptical critics)
Now that's not to say DCA will not fix it's problems, I'm sure the park will improve over the years, and I still even today think it's a great park.
But just because companies, add and expand, does not prove it was a success in the beginning. They even do it to this day at McDonald's, the number one fast food chain. All companies add, but not all companies fall short of initial annual expectations, and brush it off just because they can later expand.
Nobody is picking on DCA because it can't improve over time, they are judging the park for what it is today, just as they judged Disneyland back in 1955, without having any idea they would add a monorail, a Matterhorn, and a submarine only four years later in 1959.
If DCA improves into the number one Disney park over the next couple of years, no Disney fan is going to be upset, but they sure will be surprised!
Originally posted by dianedisney
I would like anyone, I say again....ANYONE, who can name a theme park, amusement park, any park that has opened and never been improved upon or added to??????? Do you honestly think DL opened the way we see it today? :hammer: I don't think so. Every Six Flags park has added new and better rides. So why, why, why, are people so set on putting down DCA.
I love your optomism Diane, but it's easy to answser your question.
Nobody in 1955 was saying, it will get better, just give it time. Disneyland was a sucess from the beginning. Despite what the critics thought. (I'm not talking about black Wedensday which I'm well aware of, but the overall sucess of the park that amazed sceptical critics)
Now that's not to say DCA will not fix it's problems, I'm sure the park will improve over the years, and I still even today think it's a great park.
But just because companies, add and expand, does not prove it was a success in the beginning. They even do it to this day at McDonald's, the number one fast food chain. All companies add, but not all companies fall short of initial annual expectations, and brush it off just because they can later expand.
Nobody is picking on DCA because it can't improve over time, they are judging the park for what it is today, just as they judged Disneyland back in 1955, without having any idea they would add a monorail, a Matterhorn, and a submarine only four years later in 1959.
If DCA improves into the number one Disney park over the next couple of years, no Disney fan is going to be upset, but they sure will be surprised!
If DCA improves to the level of the other Disney parks, that will be a welcome surprise. However, I believe the problem with DCA is that they had a potentially great concept, but instead of fully exploring that concept for what it actually was, they used it as an excuse to put in some really sucky attractions. Paradise Pier, for example, supposedly celebrates California's "Beach Culture". Not a bad idea, necessarily. Except that it brings in all the things that Walt couldn't stand, such as a midway. I realize the "What would Walt have done" kind of thinking is essentially what lead to the Disney company almost being taken over in the 80's, but I think they've taken it too far the other way. I don't think there is anything wrong with at least trying to honor the man's memory. But putting a midway in a park right next to Disneyland is like a slap in the face. I also think it was a mistake for the company to charge the same admission into California Adventure that it costs to get into Disneyland. That misleads guests into thinking they will get the same quality experience. And I think that has turned a lot of people off and made them think "Disney thinks we're stupid enough to pay for this just because it is a Disney park". And as I've stated earlier in this string, putting in an attraction such as "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire" (which has absolutely nothing to do with California) is like shouting "We know our park sucks and we're desperate!" Also, I recall reading a magazine article (I think it was Fortune Magazine) about the park before it opened, and it posed the question, "Are people around the country going to plan their vacation around visiting a park just to see how tortillas are made?" I think the low attendance (and yes, I'm talking even pre-9/11) shows that people aren't willing to do that. All the other Disney parks, to date, have had some sort of draw that made people want to travel for hundreds or thousands of miles to visit. DCA has none of that....currently.
DLMAGICDARREN
New Member
Plans for a carnival in a Disney park, predate DCA, although I do agree with you on your stress of the midway. But don't forget Animal Kingdom also added the midway concept before DCA ever did.
What's documented that Walt didn't like about carnivals, was the dirt, and the atmosphere, mainly the staff's foul language and such. Not once has it been said Walt had a problem with the carnival idea in itself, but he wanted a place that parents can enjoy just as much. If the Long Beach project ever took off rather then the Disneyland resort expansion, that's where we would have seen the first carnival themed area in a Disney park. Much conceptual art of carnival based attractions date back to Walt's days. Also don't forget the 1964 World's Fair, which Walt participated in.
DCA is not the "first" park to be built next to a Magic Kingdom. Every rosort now has at least one park built around it's Magic Kingdom, and although the specifics are a bit different at WDW, a bit more spread out, but the idea is the same. One resort, more then one park. Practicly next door at three resorts, but easily accesable to get from one park to another at all four resorts.
The Disneyland resort was never expecting the addition of it's newest park, to bring in the crowds based on the Tortilla factory alone. I don't think anybody would deny it's probably the weakest attraction DCA offers, but it's still by no means the only. Disneyland resort, does and always will rely on Disneyland park to bring in the crowds, they are only hoping that you will extend your vacation a bit longer, by visiting a 2nd park, and hopefully spending at least one night at one of the resort hotels. DCA was always intended to be a sumpliment to Disneyland, not competition.
If they charged a lower price, that would certainly be even more perceived as it's a lesser park (which it is no doubt), but since Disneyland cannot possibly be done in only one day already, now the resort is offering a 2nd park, that you most likely will finish in one day, but it will entertain you at the same level of quality as Disneyland park. But it's quanity, and very different environment are vastly different then Disneyland. So in essense they use discounts, which inevidably does "lower the price" but makes it appear as though you are getting a $45 value at a lesser rate, rather then experiancing a less then $45 value. Not a difference in income, but a huge difference in perception.
All four parks in WDW, which each vastly differ in quanity of attractions are the same price as well. Both parks in Paris are 38 euros in high season, and 29 euros in low season, and both parks in Tokyo are ¥5,500. (All prices are one day one park, and adult, but are valid for any park in that resort). All these parks differ greatly from their Magic Kingdoms as well.
So I don't see any reason for the California resort to be the first to use a different ticketing method. It was analized in WDW when making the decision on ticketing, since they were the first resort to add multiple parks, that if additional parks were a few dollars less, they would be perceived as not as good of parks, and therefore, people would tend to still pick the Magic Kingdom, confident they were getting the better park, for only a few dollars more. At the same price, curiosity of the new park brings in visitors. If they repeat a visit, is a whole different topic, one we are currently seeing it's not, with the exception of CM's and annual passholders.
Now none of this is to say Disney's California Adventure is without it's problems. As I've said, I really don't think one improvement they have made since the park opened has really helped the situation at all. But I do still say that it beats a parking lot, and although I'm an annual passholder, so one of the repeat visitors, that counts in the stats of DCA's attendance, but not bringing in the revenue of park tickets that the resort would rather see; I still have a lot of fun at DCA, and probably due to it's newness spend more time at DCA, then Disneyland usually.
What's documented that Walt didn't like about carnivals, was the dirt, and the atmosphere, mainly the staff's foul language and such. Not once has it been said Walt had a problem with the carnival idea in itself, but he wanted a place that parents can enjoy just as much. If the Long Beach project ever took off rather then the Disneyland resort expansion, that's where we would have seen the first carnival themed area in a Disney park. Much conceptual art of carnival based attractions date back to Walt's days. Also don't forget the 1964 World's Fair, which Walt participated in.
DCA is not the "first" park to be built next to a Magic Kingdom. Every rosort now has at least one park built around it's Magic Kingdom, and although the specifics are a bit different at WDW, a bit more spread out, but the idea is the same. One resort, more then one park. Practicly next door at three resorts, but easily accesable to get from one park to another at all four resorts.
The Disneyland resort was never expecting the addition of it's newest park, to bring in the crowds based on the Tortilla factory alone. I don't think anybody would deny it's probably the weakest attraction DCA offers, but it's still by no means the only. Disneyland resort, does and always will rely on Disneyland park to bring in the crowds, they are only hoping that you will extend your vacation a bit longer, by visiting a 2nd park, and hopefully spending at least one night at one of the resort hotels. DCA was always intended to be a sumpliment to Disneyland, not competition.
If they charged a lower price, that would certainly be even more perceived as it's a lesser park (which it is no doubt), but since Disneyland cannot possibly be done in only one day already, now the resort is offering a 2nd park, that you most likely will finish in one day, but it will entertain you at the same level of quality as Disneyland park. But it's quanity, and very different environment are vastly different then Disneyland. So in essense they use discounts, which inevidably does "lower the price" but makes it appear as though you are getting a $45 value at a lesser rate, rather then experiancing a less then $45 value. Not a difference in income, but a huge difference in perception.
All four parks in WDW, which each vastly differ in quanity of attractions are the same price as well. Both parks in Paris are 38 euros in high season, and 29 euros in low season, and both parks in Tokyo are ¥5,500. (All prices are one day one park, and adult, but are valid for any park in that resort). All these parks differ greatly from their Magic Kingdoms as well.
So I don't see any reason for the California resort to be the first to use a different ticketing method. It was analized in WDW when making the decision on ticketing, since they were the first resort to add multiple parks, that if additional parks were a few dollars less, they would be perceived as not as good of parks, and therefore, people would tend to still pick the Magic Kingdom, confident they were getting the better park, for only a few dollars more. At the same price, curiosity of the new park brings in visitors. If they repeat a visit, is a whole different topic, one we are currently seeing it's not, with the exception of CM's and annual passholders.
Now none of this is to say Disney's California Adventure is without it's problems. As I've said, I really don't think one improvement they have made since the park opened has really helped the situation at all. But I do still say that it beats a parking lot, and although I'm an annual passholder, so one of the repeat visitors, that counts in the stats of DCA's attendance, but not bringing in the revenue of park tickets that the resort would rather see; I still have a lot of fun at DCA, and probably due to it's newness spend more time at DCA, then Disneyland usually.
TravisMT81
Well-Known Member
I'd rather see the old parking lot
Yes, I too would prefer to have the old parking lot back. At least then, we could still dream of a spectacular ORIGINAL park of the type Disney had always previously given us.
Instead we have a park where some of the most prominent features are a ferris wheel, a whoa belly ride and a chain swing ride ("cleverly" disguised as a giant orange..."It even SMELLS like oranges!"...Woo hoo!! There's a quality attraction for ya!). It really is pretty ridiculous that these things exist in a Disney park. I mean, c'mon! Really! How can anyone NOT see that?
And Darren, if there's anyone who could possibly sell me on DCA, it is clearly you. You definitely build an almost convincing case for it. However....
Walt didn't just dislike carnivals just because of the dirt. He disliked them because they were boring and the rides were unimaginative. His dream was to build a place that would be completely different than anything anyone had ever seen (and that's well documented in just about every biography on Walt Disney).
DCA is simply not in the same league as any of the other Disney parks. Had it been built by Six Flags, Busch Gardens or Cedar Fair, I might have said it had potential to someday be a decent park (when measured by those parks' standards). But DCA sets no standards of it's own. I find it difficult to believe any other park would aspire to be like DCA.
A lot of people have suggested that DCA will improve as new attractions are added over time. And that is certainly a step in the right direction (provided they are attractions of ToT caliber and not simply another carnival knock off). But I think to truly improve the park, will mean also REMOVING many of the existing attractions (I would start with the Sun Wheel, Maliboomer, Jumpin' Jellyfish, Orange Stinger, & Golden Zephyr and then just start working clockwise from there!)
Instead we have a park where some of the most prominent features are a ferris wheel, a whoa belly ride and a chain swing ride ("cleverly" disguised as a giant orange..."It even SMELLS like oranges!"...Woo hoo!! There's a quality attraction for ya!). It really is pretty ridiculous that these things exist in a Disney park. I mean, c'mon! Really! How can anyone NOT see that?
And Darren, if there's anyone who could possibly sell me on DCA, it is clearly you. You definitely build an almost convincing case for it. However....
Walt didn't just dislike carnivals just because of the dirt. He disliked them because they were boring and the rides were unimaginative. His dream was to build a place that would be completely different than anything anyone had ever seen (and that's well documented in just about every biography on Walt Disney).
DCA is simply not in the same league as any of the other Disney parks. Had it been built by Six Flags, Busch Gardens or Cedar Fair, I might have said it had potential to someday be a decent park (when measured by those parks' standards). But DCA sets no standards of it's own. I find it difficult to believe any other park would aspire to be like DCA.
A lot of people have suggested that DCA will improve as new attractions are added over time. And that is certainly a step in the right direction (provided they are attractions of ToT caliber and not simply another carnival knock off). But I think to truly improve the park, will mean also REMOVING many of the existing attractions (I would start with the Sun Wheel, Maliboomer, Jumpin' Jellyfish, Orange Stinger, & Golden Zephyr and then just start working clockwise from there!)
TravisMT81
Well-Known Member
AMEN!!! plow paradise pier down. Uggh makes me so depressed to look at that part of the park.
DLMAGICDARREN
New Member
You are absolutley correct, and I'm not trying to sell DCA on anybody who doesn't enjoy it. I'll never dispute I think DCA is the weakest of all the Disney parks I've been to. I'm just clarifying issues, not trying to change anybody's opinion.
But, Paradise Pier is not all of DCA. Disneyland itself included many of these so called unimaginitive rides such as Teacups and Dumbo. But these were only pieces of the park, not the entire park. Walt was actually fine with the carnival theme, which is really what Fantasyland's original theme was until the 1983 rehab, and it still is the theme to this day in the Magic Kingdom. Concept art shows plans for a ferris wheel type attraction go back to Walt's days, which is one of the reasons the attraction was put into Disneyland Paris, as well as Paridise Pier! There are so many unbuilt attractions that to this date have never made it into a Disney park, so just because it's built in a new century, does not alone show that Walt did not support it. The entire World Showcase idea of various countries, was originally planned for Disneyland's Main Street USA, but never made it inside a Disney park, until Epcot opened in 1982. Time was Walt's worst enemy, he had so many more ideas then time allowed him to finish.
One of Walt's pride and joys was to add Matterhorn to Disneyland in 1959. And although it was a first with the new technology of steel coasters, it was still nothing more then a coaster with a beautiful mountain themed around it. And what was it's theming? (remember the attraction opened in Tomorrowland, not Fantasyland as it is today, and didn't add a snowman until 1978), so what did Matterhorn Mountain have to do with Tomorrowland? Yet Walt did this himself. Another of Walt's pride and joys was adding the skyway, and Autopia was hardly a breakthough in imagination. So don't be so quick to assume just because it comes from a carnival atmosphere, that Walt was unimpressed with every attraction. Most his ambitions were that he wanted to build a place he could have fun with his daughters and not just sit on the bench waiting for them to finish.
Paradise Pier does have many "off the shelf" attractions, so does Disneyland, Magic Kingdom, and Animal Kingdom now too. But California Screamin is a strong point for the disctrict.
Trust me there are parts of DCA I'd have no problem with if they decided to bulldoze, such as Mullholand Madness, or proably Flick's Fun Fair when it opens. But there are beatifual parts of DCA too such as Hollywood, and Grizzly Peak.
Disneyland had many barriers to cross when they decided to try and open a 2nd park, mainly very little land to work with, and building smack in the middle of an urban area, which was something that he didn't have to deal with back in 1955, but Walt himself purchased the land, and learned the lesson he didn't buy nearly enough, which is what led to his aquisition of land in Florida to later become Walt Disney World. This was Walt's own doing, nothing current management can do anything about in California. Budget alone was not the sole reason, the original expansion plans of Westcot were scrapped, the city of Anaheim would not approve such a massive project for environmental reasons.
I really don't see how bringing back the old parking lot would strengthen the original park. DCA didn't change Disneyland park whatsoever, it only expanded the resort. If you don't enjoy DCA, that's fine, Disneyland is still right there on the other side of those letters spelling out CALIFORNIA.
TravisMT81
Well-Known Member
sounds pretty good to me, I would get on a plane to come see that LOL...and buy some champagne!!!
Tigggrl
Well-Known Member
Ok, here is my last input on this subject...
I speak to hundreds of people every week, and the other night I asked a young man of about 10 years old what his favorite part of his visit was...he told me California Adventure....That says it all to me...Regardless of what the attendance numbers show, people do enjoy the park, and repeatedly visit. If you watch the Disneyland DVD it says that there were some things that Walt LIKED about the carnivals and had incorporated them into the original design of Disneyland, and I believe that he would have enjoyed Paradise Pier....I do!
So all the needless bashing of this park needs to be stopped. Nothing is ever perfect for everyone, and we all have the things we don't like about our parks, but regardless, they are there and they have something for everyone to enjoy...
SO
Just because YOU dont like something, dosent mean that everyone may not....Give it a chance.
And if you wanna bash, go back to MousePlanet where you belong....Im sick of it! Thats Where your Hero Al is, so go over and post there....
I speak to hundreds of people every week, and the other night I asked a young man of about 10 years old what his favorite part of his visit was...he told me California Adventure....That says it all to me...Regardless of what the attendance numbers show, people do enjoy the park, and repeatedly visit. If you watch the Disneyland DVD it says that there were some things that Walt LIKED about the carnivals and had incorporated them into the original design of Disneyland, and I believe that he would have enjoyed Paradise Pier....I do!
So all the needless bashing of this park needs to be stopped. Nothing is ever perfect for everyone, and we all have the things we don't like about our parks, but regardless, they are there and they have something for everyone to enjoy...
SO
Just because YOU dont like something, dosent mean that everyone may not....Give it a chance.
And if you wanna bash, go back to MousePlanet where you belong....Im sick of it! Thats Where your Hero Al is, so go over and post there....
>>I speak to hundreds of people every week, and the other night I asked a young man of about 10 years old what his favorite part of his visit was...he told me California Adventure....That says it all to me...<<
Wow!! HUNDREDS of people every week and you managed to find ONE 10-year-old who liked DCA??? Maybe it IS better than I gave it credit for!
Wow!! HUNDREDS of people every week and you managed to find ONE 10-year-old who liked DCA??? Maybe it IS better than I gave it credit for!
CHAPPS
Account Suspended
I just joined this fansite not too long ago, but I have been logging onto it for quite some time. One thing I've enjoyed has been reading the variety of opinions posted. I think it would be a pretty boring site if everyone just logged on and said, "Isn't EVERYTHING about Disney great?!" It seems kind of childish to tell someone to just go to another site just because they have a strong opinion that differs from your's.
Nevertheless, here are my thoughts on the topic: I think CA Adventure is so-so, but I'm pretty disappointed we didn't do something more imaginative with the land. As far as whether Walt would have liked it...Who knows? The man was quite an enigma. But as a HUGE Walt fan, I have read practically every book about him and have also spent hundreds of hours in the Disney Archives researching Walt. And I tend to believe that Walt would not have been impressed. Walt would have liked attractions such as Indiana Jones, Star Tours, Test Track, Honey I Shrunk the Audience, etc, because they pushed the edge of the envelope. He was big on technology and progress and in looking for new and imaginative ways to entertain people. The attractions at CA Adventure are not bad, but I don't think they have any place in a Disney park.
Nevertheless, here are my thoughts on the topic: I think CA Adventure is so-so, but I'm pretty disappointed we didn't do something more imaginative with the land. As far as whether Walt would have liked it...Who knows? The man was quite an enigma. But as a HUGE Walt fan, I have read practically every book about him and have also spent hundreds of hours in the Disney Archives researching Walt. And I tend to believe that Walt would not have been impressed. Walt would have liked attractions such as Indiana Jones, Star Tours, Test Track, Honey I Shrunk the Audience, etc, because they pushed the edge of the envelope. He was big on technology and progress and in looking for new and imaginative ways to entertain people. The attractions at CA Adventure are not bad, but I don't think they have any place in a Disney park.
mikebrakes
New Member
I'm curious. How did they have Ariel appear. Was she seated or did she actually walk around in that mermaid costume?
I could only spend one day at each park. Soarin over California is one of Disney's best rides! I got through DCA in one day-there is a definite lack of characters present.
I wasn't able to see all of Disneyland in one day. It was fun seeing the differences from WDW.
I enjoyed seeing both parks because I may never make it back to the west coast.
I wasn't able to see all of Disneyland in one day. It was fun seeing the differences from WDW.
I enjoyed seeing both parks because I may never make it back to the west coast.