Cab, Limo Drivers Stage Protest At OIA (MCO)

[AEfx]

The answer for the chauffeurs is to lower costs, improve service, and work to become competitive by advertising the downsides of MCE and delivering service that eliminates those pain points. It's not Disney's fault for getting involved, it's the fault of the existing chauffeur services for creating the opportunity for Disney to get involved.

Completely agree with this statement, and I've been saying this since the other services started complaining.

Everyone has to support either themselves or their familes...that doesn't mean, as the car/taxi companies would like you to believe, that they are somehow owed people continuing to used their already over-priced services.

The more I hear these guys complain without exhausting other avenues to enhance their service and value, the less sympathy I have for them.

AEfx

 

[MickeyTigg]

Either you believe in a free market economy or you don't. I assume from your comments you don't but rather you believe in protectionism, an economic policy that has proven destructive in every instance from small (local) to large (entire countries). It's ashame that rather than reward the innovation demonstrated in Disney's program you are instead faulting them for being in business. I, for one, fault the low quality, expensive providers.

CRO...you've had your head in a block of ice too long and obviously can't follow a logical argument.

I'm sure lewisc believes in a free market economy...as do I. But in order for it to work, everyone has to play by the same rules. Disney being allowed on the 3rd level to recruit non-reserved passengers when the towncar/limo companies and the cabbies couldn't isn't fair and you can't logically claim it is. That's been my point and lewisc's point...it's so simple a 'caveman' should be able to follow it.

BTW -- it's DME, not MCE.

 

[JimboJones123]

It's a running joke around here to not trust anything a CM says, especially bus drivers. It was just a continuation of that joke.

Disney has always hinted to the public that DME will only be free during HCOE, so it won't surprise me if they do start charging. That way, they can always run it for free when they need to kick the resort occupancy up a notch.

if they do charge, it will prob be somewhere around 10 bucks a head or so -- they can't have the situation drop off completely -- they do own the busses now.

 

[wannab@dis]

CRO...you've had your head in a block of ice too long and obviously can't follow a logical argument.

I'm sure lewisc believes in a free market economy...as do I. But in order for it to work, everyone has to play by the same rules. Disney being allowed on the 3rd level to recruit non-reserved passengers when the towncar/limo companies and the cabbies couldn't isn't fair and you can't logically claim it is. That's been my point and lewisc's point...it's so simple a 'caveman' should be able to follow it.

BTW -- it's DME, not MCE.

Why are you being rude? No call for it.

Disney has agreed they will not have people on the 3rd floor directing their customers. By the way... even the livery group acknowledged that THEY had to ask on the CM's how to get on the bus. So, they were not solicited in any way.

It's a shame that a few people wearing big white gloves is the downfall of the Orlando economy.

 

[imagineer99]

CRO...you've had your head in a block of ice too long and obviously can't follow a logical argument.

I'm sure lewisc believes in a free market economy...as do I. But in order for it to work, everyone has to play by the same rules. Disney being allowed on the 3rd level to recruit non-reserved passengers when the towncar/limo companies and the cabbies couldn't isn't fair and you can't logically claim it is. That's been my point and lewisc's point...it's so simple a 'caveman' should be able to follow it.

BTW -- it's DME, not MCE.

Wow...that...was...erm...mean...

I guess I just don't get it. Doesn't magical express have to be pre-arranged? Otherwise, any Joe Schmo could go to the the representative, regardless of whether they are staying at a Disney Resort or not, and then get FREE transportation to the WDW Resort. That just doesn't seem to be feasible. Heck, if that was the case, no would ever pay to get on Disney property again.

I've never used the service (my family always rents a car, that way were not tied down to a pre-arranged schedule), but it seems to me that the people that use Magical Express have already signed up for it. "Recruiting" isn't necessary.

 

[wannab@dis]

I guess I just don't get it. Doesn't magical express have to be pre-arranged? Otherwise, any Joe Schmo could go to the the representative, regardless of whether they are staying at a Disney Resort or not, and then get FREE transportation to the WDW Resort. That just doesn't seem to be feasible. Heck, if that was the case, no would ever pay to get on Disney property again.

Until November 1, you can show up at MCO without pre-arranging DME and get a ride to your resort. In those cases, you have to pick up your own luggage and take it to the bus. You stop at the DME counter and provide your resort reservation information, they will confirm it, and then allow you to ride DME to your resort.

After November 1, you must have pre-arranged reservations for DME. I wish Disney had stood up to the livery group and fought for their customers. But, I guess the actual number of people that didn't pre-arrange was so insignificant that they figured it would be good press to be seen as trying to help the whining livery groups.

 

[CRO-Magnum]

Obvious to you perhaps

CRO...you've had your head in a block of ice too long and obviously can't follow a logical argument.

I haven't seen a cohesive, logical argument in favor of the cab/limo drivers yet. What I have seen are alot of emotional arguments. Block of ice? Perhaps if that's what you mean by working hard to make myself successful earning a very comfortable wage which enables me to go to Disney World multiple times per year with my family. I too have competition. My options are to bury my head in the sand and whine or get competitive. I choose to get competitive.

Consider the earlier post from James15 who is a cab company owner. His knowledge surely surpasses yours and mine.

I'm sure lewisc believes in a free market economy...as do I.

Perhaps, but you don't understand what that means in terms of a level playing field. Free market economics mean everyone has equal regulations and equal access to capital markets. It does NOT mean that everyone has the same negotiating power or ability to invest.

But in order for it to work, everyone has to play by the same rules.

Again, they are. There is NOTHING Disney is doing which the cab/limo drivers cannot do themselves. They can provide free rides. They can solicit for free rides.

Disney being allowed on the 3rd level to recruit non-reserved passengers when the towncar/limo companies and the cabbies couldn't isn't fair and you can't logically claim it is.

I don't believe logically you can claim it isn't fair. Are the chauffeurs generating a profit? Are the chauffeurs providing equal services in the form of free rides? Do the chauffeurs reimburse Disney for any of the marketing Disney pays for which brings people to Orlando? Do the chauffeurs share in the capital expenditures to create new attractions at WDW to drive attendance? Do the chauffeurs help Disney cover the costs of running promotions? Do the chauffeurs cover part of the cost of running Disney reservations? Is Disney offering services to non-Disney resort guests? Is Disney offering services beyond the airport shuttle? Of course the answers are NO. Yet despite this you think they should be on an equal footing?

Explain to me what right chauffeurs have to take a slice of a Disney customer for an exorbanant price providing a low quality service and why Disney shouldn't care about it. That's the answer I want.

BTW -- it's DME, not MCE.

Yes, my mistake. I was task switching and screwed up my TLA's.

 

[Thrawn]

You know, I bet the livery services are seeing an increase in the number of guests going from a WDW resort to Universal and SeaWorld. There are still a lot of guests that would want to go to those after taking DME, so they would have to get a ride there somehow.

 

[MickeyTigg]

Explain to me what right chauffeurs have to take a slice of a Disney customer for an exorbanant price providing a low quality service and why Disney shouldn't care about it. That's the answer I want.

No....you want an answer that agrees with you opinion....nothing else.

How can you honestly say that Disney having access at the airport that no one else had is fair and operating on a level playing field?

As long as Disney has the same access and operates under the same rules at the airport as the others I don't care what Disney charges for their service.

As for the drivers providing a low quality of service....who exactly are you talking about? I've used 3 different towncar companies over the last 10 years and never experienced "low quality" service.

Personally, riding a bus from the airport with 30 of my closest "friends" and having to wait for my luggage...not knowing where it is...I find that to be low quality service.

I apologize for coming off as being rude in my previous post....but your posts have be condicending and rude in their own way and I overreacted. You don't want a debate CRO...you seem to want to just keep beating your illogical point into us until we submit...well, I for one won't submit...but at the same time, I see I'm wasting my time trying to discuss this.

 

[wannab@dis]

As long as Disney has the same access and operates under the same rules at the airport as the others I don't care what Disney charges for their service.

So, by your own argument, cab drivers should not be able to pick up anyone without a pre-arranged reservation.

I apologize for coming off as being rude in my previous post....but your posts have be condicending and rude in their own way and I overreacted. You don't want a debate CRO...you seem to want to just keep beating your illogical point into us until we submit...well, I for one won't submit...but at the same time, I see I'm wasting my time trying to discuss this.

His posts were NOT 'condescending' or rude whatsoever nor is he beating you into submission. He's simply making logical, educated and informed posts about the topic.

 

[lewisc]

I haven't seen a cohesive, logical argument in favor of the cab/limo drivers yet

They're in this thread. You're either not taking the time to read them or are complaing about the way they're worded.

Perhaps, but you don't understand what that means in terms of a level playing field. Free market economics mean everyone has equal regulations and equal access to capital markets. It does NOT mean that everyone has the same negotiating power or ability to invest.

Disney was given exclusive access to level three. Exclusive access to the baggage facilities. Was soliciting business on behalf of their partner, Mears, in violation of airport rules. Is charged a lower per passenger price than other transportation companies.

You seem confused. The rules on solicitation have nothing to do with the price that's being charged. You're not exempt from the rules if you charge a low price--even free. A limo driver that dropped off a fare and is on his way back to WDW to pick up another customer isn't allowed to solicit even if offers to drive a passenger for free. He's going to WDW empty and might well take a customer for free assuming he'd make a few dollars with a tip or might just gain a future customer.

The two people next to me in line waiting to board a DME bus to the AKL were not eligible to use DME and were steered by DME representatives to the Mears desk to buy a voucher.

 

[lewisc]

So, by your own argument, cab drivers should not be able to pick up anyone without a pre-arranged reservation.


His posts were NOT 'condescending' or rude whatsoever nor is he beating you into submission. He's simply making logical, educated and informed posts about the topic.

His posts are not logical or educated. The no solicitation rules don't have an exception for free service. He talks about the "free market" but repeatedly ignores the preferential treatment Disney was given.

Cabs have an agreement with the airport that allow them to pick up fares without a reservation. They pay a fee to the airport for that privilege. Disney is free to negotiate that type of arrangement if they want to provide that service. They're not allowed to provide that service without an agreement and without paying the necessary fees.

 

[Thrawn]

Disney was given exclusive access to level three. Exclusive access to the baggage facilities. Was soliciting business on behalf of their partner, Mears, in violation of airport rules. Is charged a lower per passenger price than other transportation companies.

Agreed on level 3. That has changed. Please do not argue it.

Mears does not make money per passenger via the terms of the contract. They are paid to make the runs whether the bus has 1 person or 40 people.

They are charged less because they offer more volume. Volume discounts are very prevalent in business today.

You seem confused. The rules on solicitation have nothing to do with the price that's being charged. You're not exempt from the rules if you charge a low price--even free. A limo driver that dropped off a fare and is on his way back to WDW to pick up another customer isn't allowed to solicit even if offers to drive a passenger for free. He's going to WDW empty and might well take a customer for free assuming he'd make a few dollars with a tip or might just gain a future customer.

The two people next to me in line waiting to board a DME bus to the AKL were not eligible to use DME and were steered by DME representatives to the Mears desk to buy a voucher.

So by your logic, no one is allowed to solicit at MCO. Fine. Enforce that on the rental car companies, the livery services, even at their counters, and on Disney and Mears.

As for the people that the DME employees brought to the desk, well, they were solicited by them, yes, but wouldn't they be getting solicited by the livery companies or rental car companies once they got to that point?

 

[Thrawn]

Cabs have an agreement with the airport that allow them to pick up fares without a reservation. They pay a fee to the airport for that privilege. Disney is free to negotiate that type of arrangement if they want to provide that service. They're not allowed to provide that service without an agreement and without paying the necessary fees.

Have you seen the terms of Disney's contract to know that they don't have such an agreement?

 

[lewisc]

Have you seen the contract Mears has with Disney? I haven't but someone in the industry, who is a board sponsor, posted that Mears is paid a flat $25 per passenger. I have no way of knowing if Mears is paid per day, per passenger or per bus run. Do you have any information that contradicts what Greg posted or are you just making up facts?


My point is companies that are allowed to solicit business at MCO have a contract with and pay a fee to MCO for that privilege. My logic is companies should be forced to comply with the rules they agree to and are paying for.

You seem confused. Disney is the only company that seems to have employees floating through the airport that's allowed to solicit business by directing customers to Mears.

If I reserved a limo the driver has a sign for me. If I didn't reserve a limo there isn't anyone in the airport that's allowed to approach me. If I want a cab I go outside and get in line. Cab drivers aren't allowed inside to solicit. If I want a rental car I go to a rental desk. Disney seems to be the only company that has employees steering customers to a desk to purchase transportation vouchers.

The lawyer for the livery industry, who read the contract, was quoted as saying advance reservations are required under the terms of the contract. The initial Disney press release announcing DME said advance reservations would be required. At least publically Disney didn't offer any objection to making the change. I haven't personally read the agreement but I have no reason to doubt the people who are telling us what it says.

The question is really moot. The entire industry can't compete with free. If Disney is forced to "play by the rules" the taxi drivers will pick up a few more fares.

In the big picture it won't make a big difference but giving Disney exclusive access to level three and exclusive access to baggage isn't free competition.

Agreed on level 3. That has changed. Please do not argue it.

Mears does not make money per passenger via the terms of the contract. They are paid to make the runs whether the bus has 1 person or 40 people.

They are charged less because they offer more volume. Volume discounts are very prevalent in business today.



So by your logic, no one is allowed to solicit at MCO. Fine. Enforce that on the rental car companies, the livery services, even at their counters, and on Disney and Mears.

As for the people that the DME employees brought to the desk, well, they were solicited by them, yes, but wouldn't they be getting solicited by the livery companies or rental car companies once they got to that point?

 

[CRO-Magnum]

I can boil it down to one question

Why should hotels be banned from providing free airport shuttles?

At every airport I can think of they are A) allowed to provide rides to anyone wishing to go to their hotel whether a guest or not, B) have preferrential access over taxis and limos, and C) do not charge for their service.

How can you honestly say that Disney having access at the airport that no one else had is fair and operating on a level playing field?

You are assuming Disney is providing an equal service to the chauffeurs which is simply not true. To point out the differences:

Disney
1. Free transportation to WDW resorts
2. Disney standard of quality for staff
3. Provides service to existing customers
4. Pays fee to have bags processed for existing customers

Chauffeurs
1. Paid transportation anywhere
2. Whomever can drive a cab and get a hack license
3. Solicits business at random
4. Does not know who customers are until they enter the vehicle so pre-processing bags is not possible

The only similarity is that they both move people from MCO to WDW. How can you have a level playing field when the two are playing different sports? It's not fair to compare apples to dump trucks.

As long as Disney has the same access and operates under the same rules at the airport as the others I don't care what Disney charges for their service.

Disney IS providing the same access and operating under the same rules as every other vendor offering free rides to their existing customers.

As for the drivers providing a low quality of service....who exactly are you talking about? I've used 3 different towncar companies over the last 10 years and never experienced "low quality" service.

I travel too much honestly. I will spare everyone my personal stories of poor service in Orlando and elsewhere but suffice to say I have had:

1. Dangerous drivers put my life at jeopardy as well as their own because their compensation model is driven by productivity. Worse, if something were to happen because of their negligence, taxis drivers are typically an indepdenent vendor who leases the taxi from the company with few to no assets. Therefore suing them to recover medical costs and lost wages is often not possible. And of course none of them lie about being insured...

2. Overcharging by taking circuitous routes to/from destinations.

3. Lost reservations and missed pick-ups.

4. Cancellations due to "over-selling capacity" leaving me stranded in the middle of nowhere (Arkansas to be exact, but that's pretty close to nowhere) with no other options. Very different than being told that at the airport where I can simply go to the next in line.

5. Long, long, long, long lines waiting for taxis at places like LAS, DCA, BOS, ORD, and LGA.

Personally, riding a bus from the airport with 30 of my closest "friends" and having to wait for my luggage...not knowing where it is...I find that to be low quality service.

And that's good for Disney because they don't want to carry 1 more person than they have to.

I apologize for coming off as being rude in my previous post....but your posts have be condicending and rude in their own way and I overreacted. You don't want a debate CRO...you seem to want to just keep beating your illogical point into us until we submit...well, I for one won't submit...but at the same time, I see I'm wasting my time trying to discuss this.

I feel I have provided details and arguments supporting my position while you continue to beat the "it's not fair" drum. We agree to disagree. However my posts were not intended to be condescending nor, at any time, did I launch into a personal attack. I am a business consultant who typically is charged with fighting an uphill battle to drive change so I try to lay things out as clearly as I can (condescending would be pointing out you spelled condescending wrong).

But I ask, why aren't the rental car companies complaining?

 

[CRO-Magnum]

Whoa there, if you want to get personal

I am well equipped.

His posts are not logical or educated.

Give me one existing model that supports your view. My model is free airport shuttles provided thousands of hotels around the world.

And your model is?

 

[wannab@dis]

Have you seen the contract Mears has with Disney? I haven't but someone in the industry, who is a board sponsor, posted that Mears is paid a flat $25 per passenger. I have no way of knowing if Mears is paid per day, per passenger or per bus run. Do you have any information that contradicts what Greg posted or are you just making up facts?

First off... Although Greg has been a sponsor of these boards a short time, I find him to be fairly trustworth. But you have to remember where he's getting his information - the livery group association. I would not consider them very unbiased on this issue.

My point is companies that are allowed to solicit business at MCO have a contract with and pay a fee to MCO for that privilege. My logic is companies should be forced to comply with the rules they agree to and are paying for.

And you seem confused. Disney is the only company that seems to be allowed to have employees floating through the airport that's allowed to solicit business by directing customers to Mears.

If I reserved a limo the driver has a sign for me. If I didn't reserve a limo there isn't anyone in the airport that's allowed to approach me. If I want a cab I go outside and get in line. If I want a rental car I go to a rental desk. Disney seems to be the only company that has employees steering customers to a desk to purchase transportation vouchers.

The airport is allowing Disney to have greeters inside the airport. If the livery group (or you) don't like that, then they should take it up with the airport. As far as solicitation is concerned, you still can't get the point that anyone that goes to the counter MUST have a resort reservation and they should be allowed to ride DME. Anything else should not be allowed and you are the only person that I've heard say that it happens. It's not been in any papers, news reports or press releases from the livery group that I've seen. If you seen it, please share the link.

Finally, we're talking about a miniscule amount of people that show up at the airport WITH a resort reservation AND WITHOUT pre-arranged reservations. It's ludicrous to get uptight about those few guests. If those are the few that cause some businesses to go out of business, then they were in BAD shape already.

 

[lewisc]

I am well equipped.



Give me one existing model that supports your view. My model is free airport shuttles provided thousands of hotels around the world.

And your model is?

The free hotel shuttles don't have representatives directing non-guests to a desk where they can purchase a voucher to pay to ride the bus as an alternative to taking a taxi. The person next to me in line waiting for the AKL bus was an Orlando resident who was going to have her son pick her up at the AKL. The person on my other side was a CSR guest who went back to MCO to drop off a rental car. He was told he couldn't ride DME since he wasn't an arriving passenger but was sent to the Mears desk to purchase a voucher.

I don't know the number of passengers Disney/Mears is "poaching" from taxis but based on my experience I'd think the number is a more than we realize.

You seem to think the solicitation rules exempt free transportation. Do you really think a limo driver leaving MCO empty is allowed to solicit for free rides?

Airport hotel shuttles operate under rules. In MCO they are required to have pickups in both sides of the terminal. DME in one side makes sense if you use the yellow luggage tags. Disney is asking guests with very early or late arrival times to get their own luggage. I don't know the agreement Disney has with MCO but I don't think they anticipated guests having to get their luggage on the B side, go back up one level and walk across the terminal with their luggage before going down two levels to to the DME desk. The other transportation companies could lower their costs if they weren't required to have locations on both sides of the terminal.

I'm not sure the livery industry can compete with free. But I think they're entitled to be treated fairly and to ask MCO enforce the rules.

A free market place doesn't work if one company is given preferential treatment. Exclusive access to level three. Exclusive right to have employees walk around looking for customers. Lower fees. Exclusive access to the baggage area of the airport. Being the only transportation company not required to be locate in both sides of the airport even though the reason for the exemption no longer exists.

I'm not question Disney's right to have an agreement with MCO providing shuttle service. The airport hotel shuttles have rules and pay fees. Disney should be required to follow the rules.

The problem with your "model" is the exact complaints the livery industry has with Disney. They aren't following those rules.

 

[CRO-Magnum]

Ok

They're in this thread. You're either not taking the time to read them or are complaing about the way they're worded.

I wasn't complaining about the wording. I was explaining that I wasn't addressing the points in the order presented which is typically done. I wanted to build my case for which I felt a different order was better to keep from confusing the reader. The wording was just fine.

Disney was given exclusive access to level three. Exclusive access to the baggage facilities. Was soliciting business on behalf of their partner, Mears, in violation of airport rules. Is charged a lower per passenger price than other transportation companies.

Regarding Level 3 let's not waste time arguing history. I cannot argue for or against it. Disney pays for the baggage handling and its only possible because the customers are already Disney customers and constitute a large portion of the airport travellers. It's a model that doesn't lend itself to independents or small companies, but for a price I'm sure they could do the same thing. From your example Disney was not soliciting business. The person chose to talk to Disney and Disney has the right to tell them whatever they want. Just the same, that person has the right to go to the next counter/person and ask the same question.

You seem confused. The rules on solicitation have nothing to do with the price that's being charged. You're not exempt from the rules if you charge a low price--even free. A limo driver that dropped off a fare and is on his way back to WDW to pick up another customer isn't allowed to solicit even if offers to drive a passenger for free. He's going to WDW empty and might well take a customer for free assuming he'd make a few dollars with a tip or might just gain a future customer.

I was being glib. If the person has established a business relationship with you already then it is not solicitation. This is why limo drivers can hold up their signs and direct marketers can still call you regardless of the do not call list (if you are a customer of the given company they are calling on behalf of). Taxi's agree to a certain business model, as do limos, to get licensed. Those constraints are not hidden.

The two people next to me in line waiting to board a DME bus to the AKL were not eligible to use DME and were steered by DME representatives to the Mears desk to buy a voucher.

This single incident demonstrates what Disney is doing is not solicitation. The people talked to DME of their own accord. If Disney talked first making the offer of Mears service, then it would be solicitation.