Rumor Bye Bye (Tiki) Birdies?

TDogg76

Member
I guess this all depends on perspective! My wife took me to WDW ( when we first started dating) 14 years ago! She grew up going every year as a kid! I went when I was 12 and hated it because there wasn't thrill rides! So I was skeptical! I remember being blown away by the customer service and attention to detail! Her favorite character has always been Figment! So, we went on the ride and she told me how sad she was because it wasn't anything like it used to be! I enjoyed the ride a lot and thought she was crazy until she showed me the original on YouTube!
My point being: I enjoyed the new Disney and can see why the "old Disney" fans hold attractions in their heart! She misses World of Motion! And Horizons! I watch YouTube and know that I would prefer TT or MS! I enjoy Tiki Room......but as long as it stays in DL, it's all good! You can still see it where it belongs!! I am all about new attractions! I laughed when I went on Maelstrom the first time and I really enjoy the Frozen ride! The same with Mexico pavilion! I have to believe their are a lot of people like me: Respect the past but am fine with change!
Now how do we get CoP back to its homeland?
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
The fact that Disney went out of their way to make such a big deal about the original show returning to WDW after the fire only to potentially remove it a short number of years afterward feels like a giant kick in the jewels.

A completely expected, predictable, par-for-the-course kick in the jewels.

In fact, I could envision them having the Dreamfinder announce the official closing while standing on a 20k sub, while showing off the new line of "going away forever" merch that will be in limited release (for only 3 years!).

You mean like finally getting a sponsor for the GMR... doing some minor updates to embrace that sponsor.. and then just a short time after the attraction is in the queue to be gutted? :)
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Wait, you're telling me that Disney-MGM studios wasn't based, thematically, on the golden age of Hollywood, themed to the 1930s-40s, with attractions based on classic movies and shows like Twilight Zone, Indiana Jones, the Wizard of Oz, and the original Star Wars movies? Wow! I wonder what park I've been going to?

It wasn't 'based on nostalgia'. Nostalgia is pulling on the strings to invoke emotions about the past or to reminisce about your past. If you have no connection to that past, then Nostalgia has no place for you. And the park wasn't trying to get people to relive their memories. It was supposed to be a park about making movies and the industry behind that.

The park was to be a studio, to show how the magic was made, and to celebrate the movie industry and the significant factors in it.

Visiting Gettysburg or the National Archives are not experiences 'based on nostalgia'... and neither was DMGM or Hollywood Blvd... because the vast vast majority had NEVER BEEN TO HOLLYWOOD nor knew much about it. How are you selling nostalgia to people who don't know anything about the topic?

It was a showcase of the movie industry... not an environment to pull on your emotional memories.

Celebrating the milestones and shakers of the industries past are not moves to invoke or rely on nostalgia.
 

DDLand

Well-Known Member
You might want to investigate the history of the contrivance originally known as Walt Disney Inc. The proof you're looking for is in the undisputed recorded history of TWDC. Both Roy O. Disney and his son Roy E. Disney were disgusted with Walt's unsavory and unethical business practices. And in reality, Walt never got his comeuppance because he was crafty enough to settle the lawsuit before it went to court. And as for your assertion that time has sufficiently healed the wounds of Walt's dishonest behavior, I think the company would like to distance itself from as much of the "bad Walt" as they can. Did you know that between 1955 and 1981 TWDC (current name) paid RETLAW (current name in 1981) $75 million that came directly out of the shareholders pockets?

With the death of Dianne Disney Miller in 2013, the Walt Disney Family Foundation is beginning to fade. Since there was no love lost between TWDC and the foundation, TWDC is now in a better position to get rid of old attractions such as the Enchanted Tiki Room which hold such bad memories for TWDC.

You might want to check on the Disney family feud between the "Roy Boys" and the "Walt Boys" which might help you to better understand the massive dis-function in the Disney family. Did you know that Roy O. Disney and Walt Disney stopped talking to each other for over a year because of Roy's revulsion with Walt's unethical business practices?

I know a lot of Disney fans that just prefer not to know about the "bad Walt". And those are the same people that are often surprised and distressed to learn of changes in the parks.

FYI the current Disney family (as of 2014) is no better off: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/walt-disney-family-feud-inside-706029
Your pervasive negativity has never followed. There are issues with Walt Disney, he was not perfect, but he was a great man. His personality, thinking, and leadership prompted the most extreme levels of loyalty in friends and associates.

People loved him, and he created things that no one else could. He was a perfectionist and that created friction while interfacing with some others. On a whole, he created tremendous value both financially and artistically.

Like others, I would say the reason he was "genius" was because of an impeccable taste and ability to judge talent. The best geniuses know how to make others create incredible things.

Now on the issues you pointed out in particular, historical background is appropriate and fair. The issues boiled down to two major things:

1) The "Walt Disney" name. Walt Disney believed that his name should belong to him, and that it created tremendous value. If the name was being used to promote movies, theme parks, comics, books, etc. he should get an automatic cut of the profits. Walt Disney also believed that because his name belonged to him, he could take his name wherever he wanted. That created a major problem for Walt Disney Productions, much of their value was locked up in a contract and there was inherent instability with that relationship.

What's clear is Walt Disney Productions was in a tough spot. Roy, who's wealth was primarily tied up in WDP, believed that a lasting solution should be crafted. Walt however viewed his name as perhaps his most valuable possession. It was something that he'd cared deeply about since the beginning. He had built a brand that could out live him and could be used to do incredible things. He wanted the name to belong to his children and beyond.

Walt and Roy both had compelling reasons for their opinions on the name rights. Roy viewed "Walt Disney" as the work of decades of collaboration and partnership; it was their (and WDP's) creation. Walt viewed it as his own.

2) Relationship with WED and Disneyland. The second reason for friction goes to certain attractions and WED. Disneyland Railroad, Monorail, and Mark Twain were at one time operated by Walt Disney's personal company. In addition, WED (WDI today) had exclusive right to building Disneyland attractions. This once again put WDP in an uncomfortable position.

Of course it's worth pointing out how this arrangement began in the first place. When Disneyland was being built, money was in extremely short supply. Disneyland was originally financed by WDP, Bank of America, and ABC. Even that was not enough. In order to have the opening day roster Walt Disney wanted, he poured all his money into a new company that could operate some of his more ambitious attractions. Railroad and Mark Twain were far from safe bets, but he poured his money into them. These practices actually insulated WDP and its partners and allowed Disneyland to open more robustly. Walt Disney himself was taking on a considerable risk, and would suffer the worst of anyone if it blew up.

Same for WED, which also was an extremely risky bet. Disneyland probably was going to close a couple months after it opened, and yet Walt Disney poured his capital into a new research and artistic company. This also gave him far more artistic control over the projects, which honestly is a good thing.

Somehow Disneyland didn't bomb, and it only grew from there. People loved it. Walt's insane (I'll say it again, insane) investments paid of handsomely all while WDP worked to consolidate control over Disneyland.

After several years WDP began to be concerned over this, a company with a monopolistic control over creativity could present huge problems. Those fears weren't unfounded either, as WED grew it became hungrier for funds and ensured it exploited revenue sources like the Monorail, licensing fees, RR, etc. WDP didn't like where this was going and proposed a longterm solution. Once again Roy and the company felt like they had risked everything alongside Walt, and deserved to own the company.

From Roy's view he looked at it like a partnership being exploited to one sides gain. From Walt's view he looked at the potential for his creations and autonomy to be ripped from him after he had risked everything.

They both had logic and a whole lot of emotion behind their view points, and that's why it become so toxic. While resentment continued to loom between the two families, Walt and Roy were able to move mostly beyond that. Roy was clearly moved by a profound sense of love for his brother towards the end of Walt's life. The two were both perfectionists with perhaps a touch of sibling rivalry thrown into the mix; but their Company still lives onto to this day. They were a great partnership.

The fictional anger that exists towards Walt that you suggest still simmers within the Company is total crap. While I myself am frustrated with many of their choices, many employees remain avid followers of his philosophies and try to live up to his high standard. Those who don't, probably just too disinterested or are too focused on models and projections to think about this supposed vendetta against Walt. While Roy E. had hard feelings towards the Walt side of the family, especially Ron Miller, it's clear Roy E. always sought to live up to his Uncle's high standard. Fantasia 2000 was a personnel pet project that fulfilled a promise Walt had made. He cared that much.

It's hopeless to even try to converse with you because you're so unwilling to look towards the complexity of a business and family relationship that fell on hard times. The people who worked with him (and many are sadly slipping away) loved him. His work is landmark. He contributed to one of the greatest business partnerships of all time.

He wasn't perfect, but he wasn't evil either.

Can I also point out something ironic? Exclusive creative control, revenue based off of licensing, exclusive operations of park attractions- does that sound familiar to anyone?

Didn't your beloved Bob just open a park with those exact same perimeters? Maybe you should also take swipes at the "unethical" and "unsavory" business practices employeed by the Walt Disney Company today in parks all over the world. Hong Kong would love some help.

You've gone so far to paint this negatively that you lost connection with the complexities of time, history, and context.

Whatever!
 

Otterhead

Well-Known Member
It wasn't 'based on nostalgia'. Nostalgia is pulling on the strings to invoke emotions about the past or to reminisce about your past.
Alrighty then. I feel like you're going out of your way to split linguistic hairs to avoid admitting you're wrong. Buuuuut have fun with that!

The reality is that yes, Disney trades deeply in nostalgia, whether it's using old music cues, bringing back fan-favorite attractions, basing entire parks on nostalgic themes, or keeping things "retro". A CM once told me that EPCOT is thought of as their "80s park", and given the retro-Epcot feel of Test Track 2.0, I can see what they're going for. I hope they don't forget that legacy attractions are deeply steeped in generations of nostalgia.
 

WEDwaydatamover

Well-Known Member
I don't think that lower turnstile numbers for the Tiki Room, Country Bears and Carousel of Progress are in any way because they are poor quality attractions.

They have been either dumbed down or neglected by management and frankly it's depressing for fans (who know better) to sit through them. It's an insult to their guests and to the brilliant original Imagineers who created them.

I'm convinced that TDO manipulate "target" attractions and their n#mbers any negative way they can in order to warrant closing them.
 

DDLand

Well-Known Member
I am just so glad someone else said this. I've been thinking this for years. More Disney self-reverential stuff that fans just eat up.
I take it as primarily a cry for help. While I don't think any of the attractions within the SEA Family gain anything from being associated with SEA (with the exception of the insanely accurate Fortress Explorations) the attractions associated with it are some of the best in the business.

It's just a way for someone to cry out for a glass of water while stumbling through an IP desert. There are some people who do just want to hold it over others and be a part of the "in crowd." That sort of thing doesn't appeal to me; especially when they are creating rampant inconsistencies within this reality they've built.

When did they decide that a Family boat ride at TL needed a tie-in with Harrison Hightower's rather mature plunge down an elevator shaft?

SEA was a mature more serious look at the good and the bad of exploration in a park that involves theme touching on those points. It's now being placed everywhere in the most inappropriate uses.

They're getting their glass of water in the desert, but with heavy dose of salt mixed in.
 

Kman101

Well-Known Member
Alrighty then. I feel like you're going out of your way to split linguistic hairs to avoid admitting you're wrong. Buuuuut have fun with that!

The reality is that yes, Disney trades deeply in nostalgia, whether it's using old music cues, bringing back fan-favorite attractions, basing entire parks on nostalgic themes, or keeping things "retro". A CM once told me that EPCOT is thought of as their "80s park", and given the retro-Epcot feel of Test Track 2.0, I can see what they're going for. I hope they don't forget that legacy attractions are deeply steeped in generations of nostalgia.

But he's not wrong.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Alrighty then. I feel like you're going out of your way to split linguistic hairs to avoid admitting you're wrong. Buuuuut have fun with that!

DQ3Rx.gif


It's not splitting hairs.. its the difference between the sun and the moon. I can't help it if you are sloppy and toss ideas around as if they are interchangable when they are fundamentally different. Building a movie themed park with a classic hollywood setting was not about Nostalgia.

Building immersion to invoke a suspension of disbelief is not about nostalgia. There are very different concepts aiming to invoke different responses.

That is not to say the parks are devoid of nostalgia... that is very much part of the Disney experience of sharing across generations. But your sloppy way of just slapping a label on things as a side in an argument isn't going to fly when it's ridiculously wrong. If you don't care.. that's fine, but your laissez faire doesn't make it any more credible.
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
This is 100% correct. If this was 1990, the reaction would be different (of course, it's unlikely this would have happened in '90). Disney doesn't deserve fan trust at the moment, and it will take a lot for them to earn it back. Look at the history of Disney replacements: Snow White became a meet and greet, Horizons became M:S, 20,000 Leagues became a hole in the ground for 10 years, Wonders of Life and Cranium Command became a seasonal classroom, WoM became TT, the Animation Tour became an exhibit space for a few reproduced props, Imagination became... something. The list goes on and on.

Why would anyone trust WDW at this point?

You assume current WDW guests know any of the examples listed in your post.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Not much time today, but when people ask why Disney is looking to remove this beloved (only by some, to be fair) attraction ... we need to talk semantics a bit.

While we consider the Tiki Room to be an 'attraction' (please, don't call it a ride ... even by mistake, you look so stupid when you talk about riding a theater show. I hear it with CBJ, HoP, AA etc and it is just wrong) and it certainly was for most of its existence, it isn't now. That's right, Disney does NOT consider Jose and Fritz and Claude etc to be an attraction.

They consider it to be a distraction.

Very big and significant difference all born about from the NGE/MM+ multi-billion dollar reinventing the theme park going experience fiasco.

As explained to me by a friend who was working for Disney when NGE began, but no longer is, attractions were things like Space Mountain, Little Mermaid, Meet Mickey, Wishes, Pirates, Peter Pan etc etc. Anything that had FP+ was defined by TDO to be an 'attraction'. Things like Tiki Room, CBJ, HoP and Peoplemover (some of those which were E-Ticket attractions in the past) were viewed as 'distractions' ... You see, TDO and Nick Franklin and Tom Staggs and Jay Rasulo and George Kalogridis and, oh yeah, Bob Iger too wanted you to take all of that 'extra time' (ask Guests if they feel like they have that today! Go ahead ... ask people in the parks, I'd love to hear what you find out!) and use it to spend more on food and beverage and merchandise. They were 'distractions' to make you not realize that while you weren't standing in a queue for 85 minutes to ride Splash Mountain, you were stuck in Frontierland with two hours before your FP window opened, so you were in fact waiting ... just doing so sans standing in a queue.

Of course, it didn't work out that way. Just like the original FP didn't cause revenue and profits to rise. Disney still doesn't get that with few exceptions, if people have $500 to spend in a day, they won't spend $723 just because they've made all the lines longer in the park and a reservation to do something as simple at get your princess a photo with a Disney one.

But that's another tale ... the thing to focus on is if something at WDW doesn't have FP+ on it, then Disney doesn't consider it (with a very few exceptions) to really have value. They are simply the distractions for you to keep busy while still waiting hours to get on favorite attractions.

Disney has no problem closing attractions or replacing or changing them. Why would you expect them to feel differently about distractions?
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
If that 53 million number is accurate. That's the worst money spent in theme park history. I would have said even more in his shoes.

I went with the lower number as I can't recall whether it was $53 or $57 million. ... But you are correct largely ... Rocket Rods is certainly up there.

The thing is TDO wanted to up the count on it, Kodak also wanted it updated. There were all sorts of forces at play. And despite him being a micro-manager (largely true but with a company the size of Disney, even 20 years ago, only so much time to go around), he was largely sold on a redo that he had every reason to expect would retain the charm of the original, yet get more people into it and also allow Disney to close off the second level and move Image Works down (again, this came from TDO ... not WDI ... not Burbank ... not Michael).

But by the time he rode it, it was an unmitigated disaster ... There was no substance whatsoever to the ride and no reason for it being and Disney had spent over $50 million to destroy an attraction that needed a 9-12 month closure, changing 2-3 scenes a bit, updating a few effects and that's it. And all for less than $20 million, even the way Disney spends.

Obviously, it didn't go like that.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
For better or for worse?

Nothing that Disney has done in the swamps over the last 15 years would in any way give reason to feel positive about the changes. This is a management team that still doesn't understand why shade trees and benches are important in the world's most popular (I should say attended) theme park. These are the basics. Even the dimwitted teens just starting at Rosen understand these basics. Yet, people like Kalogridis and Holmes and Cockerell clearly don't ... or just don't give a damn, which is even worse.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Actually, I would have to blame the "white trash" that you talked about for that one. Do you honestly believe that Disney really wanted to spend millions of dollars for people to stand in line for 2 hours for a M&G? You know that they would rather have those people out spending money in restaurants and stores. Having a character walking around costs them practically nothing compared to having to build and staff the M&G areas. It does seem that the people that visit the other Disney parks are more respectful. Sad really.

No, now, Goof, when I start talking bluntly about WDW's Guest makeup some folks take offense. So, let's not call trash trash ... let's call them simply 'People I wouldn't want living next door to me' or 'People I'd walk the other way from if I saw them in a grocery store' etc.

I absolutely (read my last few posts) believe that Disney did and does want to spend the pittance it costs for even 'nice' meet-greet-and-gropes like the Meet Mickey deal on MSUSA and the new Frozen sisters location at EPCOT, then having actual attractions.

Do you want me to go summon @TP2000 to the thread to explain how two Anaheim parks have twice the attractions that four Orlando parks have? (and that is being generous on the attraction front) A M&G costs so, so, so much less than even a half-assed new attraction like a few of what were added in New Fantasyland. Disney will always prefer this dumbing down of Guests who are too stupid to realize that you don't pay thousands of dollars for foamhead or Princess meetings.

As to Guests being more respectful ... I can argue both sides of that easily. But I can also add that the way WDW has changed into a reserve everything, pay extra/upcharges for everything, no relaxation component has given us the typical 21st century Guest. If I were dumb enough to spend $5,000 on a WDW vacation, then I'd be trying to see and do it all ... and that adds up to a lot of ugly situations in the parks.

I don't get that vibe in Anaheim, Paris, Hong Kong or Tokyo.
 
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