Burbank....we have a problem!

steve2wdw

WDW Fan Since 1973
Original Poster
If you're a Disney fan, and you spend any time on the discussion forums on this and the other sites out there, you've surely noticed all the WDW bashing that's been going on out there. The numbers out of Orlando seem to be reflecting the general "been there, done that" mentality of the general public towards WDW. It might be that 2010 will go down as the year that pushed Burbank to finally make some needed changes at this behemoth of a resort. Will Iger and/or Staggs finally step up and make some meaningful management changes at the company's flagship resort? Could we be on the verge of a WDW Renaissance? Can The Disney Company reinvent WDW the way they're reinventing DCA out west, or will they even bother? It's seems that WDW is at that point where something MAJOR needs to be done, or it might be too late to turn the tide. What are your thoughts?
 

SeaCastle

Well-Known Member
Good idea, but I think the most powerful voice we have is our money. Spending money off-site, not buying their homogenized merchandise crap, etc. Being a "Disney" family, I would be a terrible participant, but unfortunately it's the best way to make a difference.

On top of that, some of the problems that are affecting WDW so negatively stem directly from Burbank (i.e. merchandise, the park spending model). I dare say we may never see the golden era of WDW (up to 1994) again. Change needs to be implemented all over the place, from Iger, Staggs, and Hunt to the maintenance CM's sleeping in ride cars at night.
 

Kobe!!

Well-Known Member
Good idea, but I think the most powerful voice we have is our money. Spending money off-site, not buying their homogenized merchandise crap, etc. Being a "Disney" family, I would be a terrible participant, but unfortunately it's the best way to make a difference.

On top of that, some of the problems that are affecting WDW so negatively stem directly from Burbank (i.e. merchandise, the park spending model). I dare say we may never see the golden era of WDW (up to 1994) again. Change needs to be implemented all over the place, from Iger, Staggs, and Hunt to the maintenance CM's sleeping in ride cars at night.

WHAT!!?!? :shrug:
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
I think they are waiting to see where they are after the FLE and ST2 open. They have announced at least one "new" resort and there will be the ongoing changes to DtD with HW and possible additions to the West Side.

Iger has said that he plans to slow down on big projects but I think they will find they need a major add sooner than they would like.

Personally I'd like to see something on the scale of a new land for AK or an expansion of Pixar Place (Carsland?) or an overhaul of Future World to make it a cohesive location both aesthetically and with what the attractions offer. For instance, a new film for Soarin that actually fits the theme of the pavilion.

The D23 Expo should be amazing next year with China news but I am still optimistic about WDW's future also. That DCA seems to be an increasing success will make it much easier for them to justify further spending at WDW.
 

DTM93

Member
I've noticed that there is a lot of WDW bashing but to be fair I've only just recently noticed how people are either fans of DLR or WDW and then they will completely bash the other park for no reason.
Hopefully once DLR expansions are complete then they may begin to focus on WDW. I'm lucky enough to have been to both parks in the USA and we are probably going to return to DLR to see all of the new expansion at DCA.
Like other people have said they only way they are going to notice is through the power of money, if they see a drop in profit and in money then they will begin to do something. Attendance is flat at the moment so they haven't gained or loss so unfortunately they might only wait until there's a decline.
 

raven

Well-Known Member
Change needs to be implemented all over the place, from Iger, Staggs, and Hunt to the maintenance CM's sleeping in ride cars at night.

WHAT!!?!? :shrug:

True. Diverse custodial CMs sometimes do it too but management pretend not to see it because they are afraid of racial recoils. Sleeping is considered grounds for termination but if they are caught, put on leave and go to the union, they are always back within a week because they say they were "praying." :rolleyes:
 

SeaCastle

Well-Known Member
I've noticed that there is a lot of WDW bashing but to be fair I've only just recently noticed how people are either fans of DLR or WDW and then they will completely bash the other park for no reason.
Hopefully once DLR expansions are complete then they may begin to focus on WDW. I'm lucky enough to have been to both parks in the USA and we are probably going to return to DLR to see all of the new expansion at DCA.
Like other people have said they only way they are going to notice is through the power of money, if they see a drop in profit and in money then they will begin to do something. Attendance is flat at the moment so they haven't gained or loss so unfortunately they might only wait until there's a decline.

It's pretty much indisputable that DLR has better maintenance and don't cheap out as much as WDW does. Part of this has to do with better management, part has to do with the fact that their management has to try their hardest to appease the local AP'ers, with some 60% of their attendance coming from within a 100 mile radius.

Like you, I've had the fortune to visit both parks recently. There's nothing I can really "bash" Disneyland on, but I still enjoy WDW better (though many, including myself, will continue to bash it.)
 

jmuboy

Well-Known Member
The fact that DL is getting a HUGE new parade in 2011, the year WDW turns 40, and WDW is getting ZERO speaks volumes. I love disney. But like everyone here says, I speak with my money. I am going to DL until I see WDW trying to do better.

I've never been to IoA, but this spring I'm taking a long weekend in Orlando - IoA, Busch Gardens, Sea World and Discovery Cove. No WDW. Nothing new to see to excite me.
 

Atomicmickey

Well-Known Member
. . . . . this spring I'm taking a long weekend in Orlando - IoA, Busch Gardens, Sea World and Discovery Cove. No WDW. Nothing new to see to excite me.

And yet, you will miss it and think about it.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, but I know I would.

Such is our curse . . . . .
 

John

Well-Known Member
I think they are waiting to see where they are after the FLE and ST2 open. They have announced at least one "new" resort and there will be the ongoing changes to DtD with HW and possible additions to the West Side.

Iger has said that he plans to slow down on big projects but I think they will find they need a major add sooner than they would like.

Personally I'd like to see something on the scale of a new land for AK or an expansion of Pixar Place (Carsland?) or an overhaul of Future World to make it a cohesive location both aesthetically and with what the attractions offer. For instance, a new film for Soarin that actually fits the theme of the pavilion.

The D23 Expo should be amazing next year with China news but I am still optimistic about WDW's future also. That DCA seems to be an increasing success will make it much easier for them to justify further spending at WDW.


IMHO this is exactly what they dont need to return to what people truly want, and why they pay the amount of money they do to visit.....Whats missing and whats continually deteriorateing...is the MAGIC!

The small things that seem to disapear....The true Disney magic never wears thin...."been there....done that" I used to tell people that "they do it like only Disney can" It gets harder and harder to say that.Take all that money you speak of, and instead of investing in a ride or a exspansion invest it back into the magic. There was a time when...if you were on-property at Christmas and had children they would leave a stocking for each one on your door Christmas mourning.....thats magic. You would go to sleep and the ENTIRE WDW was decorated.....in one night! now thats magical.....How did they do it? People.....Weather you like or not its the people there that makes it magical.....From management down to the janitorial crew.


The reason WDW is what it is today, is because it was built on that magic. First time WDW goers wont have that magic, they will come conquer RNR, TOT etc. then move on to find the next big thrill. Been there....Done that. Honestly, How many of us go to WDW for the thrill rides? YESSSS I am sure there is someone out there but to the real Disney fans....How many? You go for the way you feel when you drive under the arches....walk theu the gates at MK and see the castle....see piano Bob at POR...lol....thats why

I say spend the money on the little things, WDW is BIG enough....How big do you want it?...I have been there 14 times and I can find atleast one thing I have never done everytime. Its a behemoth now. There I have rambled on enough....I had to vent. This has been boiling for sometime now.....sorry.
 

Skip

Well-Known Member
I love Disney - love their films, love Walt's ideology, the parks, most of the company, really. But the way they have handled their parks is absolutely disgusting - I want to support innovators, not nostalgia-reliers. The new marketing campaign is a true testament to how far down the wrong road Disney has gone. Instead of marketing their big new additions and improvements to the parks, they market those warm fuzzy feelings you got back when those attractions were actually added.

My family had a set of WDW annual passes for several years - we stopped and switched to Universal. They are the innovators right now. Their parks aren't perfect, but they're making honest efforts to further the industry. I'll give Disneyland my money when the opportunity comes since they're in a much better place - but I refuse to support the mess WDW has become. I don't like it, but I know nothing will change if I don't vote with my wallet. I wish more people would follow me.
 

SeaCastle

Well-Known Member
And yet, you will miss it and think about it.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, but I know I would.

Such is our curse . . . . .

Which is why we're not going to Universal anytime soon. There's nothing for us there, and we have no interest in visiting the non-Disney Orlando parks. So while my money keeps going towards mediocrity, we still have fun in WDW no matter what.
 

John

Well-Known Member
I love Disney - love their films, love Walt's ideology, the parks, most of the company, really. But the way they have handled their parks is absolutely disgusting - I want to support innovators, not nostalgia-reliers. The new marketing campaign is a true testament to how far down the wrong road Disney has gone. Instead of marketing their big new additions and improvements to the parks, they market those warm fuzzy feelings you got back when those attractions were actually added.

My family had a set of WDW annual passes for several years - we stopped and switched to Universal. They are the innovators right now. Their parks aren't perfect, but they're making honest efforts to further the industry. I'll give Disneyland my money when the opportunity comes since they're in a much better place - but I refuse to support the mess WDW has become. I don't like it, but I know nothing will change if I don't vote with my wallet. I wish more people would follow me.


First all that nostalgia has made Disney and Uni....billions of dollars. All that fuzzy feeling money adds up. Universal depends heavily on their studios dont they? Its basically the same model as DHS.

You say "innovators" How is Uni innovative? They built WWOHP ok...they scored HUGE....knocked it out of the park....but how is it innovative. They used a book and movie franchise and brought it to life....someone elses. Marketing? How is any of their new marketing innovative?...Come see Harry? I enjoy Uni just like the next guy. When "Soarin" was first built it was absolutely considered innovative. You think Epcot isnt innovative? Tell me where there is anything like it?

Why do you think UNI would build WWOHP, when they are winding down the franchise? because they are depending on your generation to feel....what is it?....Nostalgic and want to retuen in years to come. To see something that was what?....apart of your past. All or most of the rides at IOA are based on someone elses ideas charecters etc.


What I agee with is that WDW is a mess but not because of any reason you stated. The good news is that it isnt to late. I feel it can be fixed. It hasnt gone past ....the point of no return.
 

Rob562

Well-Known Member
You say "innovators" How is Uni innovative? They built WWOHP ok...they scored HUGE....knocked it out of the park....but how is it innovative. They used a book and movie franchise and brought it to life....someone elses.

I'm far from a mega Universal fanboy, but you wouldn't call the Forbidden Journey ride system innovative? Sure, the arm technology is Kuka's, but that only goes so far. You also have to include the storyline, sets, projections, effects, the motion programming....


When "Soarin" was first built it was absolutely considered innovative. You think Epcot isnt innovative? Tell me where there is anything like it?

Are you talking about Soarin or Epcot? There have been patents filed for other companies for ride systems that give a similar experience to Soarin, but without the giant suspended superstructure. It's only a matter of time before the Soarin-like experience extends beyond Disney parks.

Why do you think UNI would build WWOHP, when they are winding down the franchise? because they are depending on your generation to feel....what is it?....Nostalgic and want to retuen in years to come. To see something that was what?....apart of your past. All or most of the rides at IOA are based on someone elses ideas charecters etc.

I hate the break it to you, but a good chunk of Disney's characters aren't of their own creation, either... Grimm's Fairy Tales, Peter Pan, Winnie the Pooh, even the Uncle Remus stories... None of them written by Disney.


What I agee with is that WDW is a mess but not because of any reason you stated. The good news is that it isnt to late. I feel it can be fixed. It hasnt gone past ....the point of no return.

I agree with you that it's not too late for Disney to become the world-class entertainment company it used to be. They just the upper echelon to grow a pair...

-Rob
 

Skip

Well-Known Member
First all that nostalgia has made Disney and Uni....billions of dollars. All that fuzzy feeling money adds up. Universal depends heavily on their studios dont they? Its basically the same model as DHS.

You say "innovators" How is Uni innovative? They built WWOHP ok...they scored HUGE....knocked it out of the park....but how is it innovative. They used a book and movie franchise and brought it to life....someone elses. Marketing? How is any of their new marketing innovative?...Come see Harry? I enjoy Uni just like the next guy. When "Soarin" was first built it was absolutely considered innovative. You think Epcot isnt innovative? Tell me where there is anything like it?

Why do you think UNI would build WWOHP, when they are winding down the franchise? because they are depending on your generation to feel....what is it?....Nostalgic and want to retuen in years to come. To see something that was what?....apart of your past. All or most of the rides at IOA are based on someone elses ideas charecters etc.


What I agee with is that WDW is a mess but not because of any reason you stated. The good news is that it isnt to late. I feel it can be fixed. It hasnt gone past ....the point of no return.

Whether people like to admit it or not, Universal has always had some role in innovation when it comes to theme parks - Harry Potter and the Forbidden Journey is just the most recent and one of the most impressive results. The Amazing Adventures of Spider-Man is still considered to be one of the top attractions anywhere - the first ride to seamlessly combine real sets, 3D action, and motion simulator tech. Back to the Future's style of simulation was revolutionary at the time, setting the bar for motion simulation. Terminator 2:3D perfects the combination of a 3D presentation with live action elements via animatronics and stunt actors. Revenge of the Mummy created an attraction that was both a spooky (and detail-ridden) dark ride as well as a high-speed coaster. Dueling Dragons took the concept of a dual coaster and moved it past the concept of just "timing" the launches of each track - it created a computer system that insured the trains movements would be near-synonymous and nail all of the "near-miss" points. E.T. Adventure was one of the first few attractions to attempt to integrate guests into the experience with E.T.'s goodbyes by name at the conclusion of the ride... and Men in Black took the concept of a ride-through shooting gallery introduced by Buzz and amplified it to the nth degree, giving it fully dimensional (and believable) sets, grade A effects and animatronics, a compelling story, a true competition, and multiple endings.

The list goes on. Now granted many of their attempts at innovation were misguided, too complex for their time, or downright stupid (see 1990 Jaws, Sylvester McMonkey McBean, and Rip-Ride-Rockit) and they've made some poor decisions and weak efforts in their theme parks (shuttering Kong & Alfred Hitchcock, introducing Neutron, Fear Factor, and Shrek) but no theme park hasn't had failures, including Disney.

Universal is an innovator since it's setting the bar for new ride technologies, concepts, and theming - the amount of detail and effects found in Wizarding World are comparable (at least in my eyes) only to the likes of Tokyo Disney Sea and a few select areas of the domestic Disney parks. And frankly, while some areas are weaker than others (Production Central, Toon Lagoon), a majority of Universal's parks are exquisitely themed as well.

I don't mind theme parks using nostalgia - but they can't solely rely on it. If Disney was using a nostalgia-washed ad campaign to tell me to come to their parks to savor the experiences I've had there, as WELL as enjoy new exciting concepts, then I wouldn't have a problem - that's what Universal is going for with their Potter ads, targeting those who love Potter (read: a lot of people) but delivering to them a new, fantastic experience. And The Wizarding World will stand the test of time regardless of whether the franchise remains as relevant as it is today - the attractions found there are incredibly entertaining. A great attraction is a great attraction, regardless of the franchise that pulls it.

Disney is far from being doomed in terms of quality - the parks have faced rough waters before (especially Disneyland) and have navigated their way out of it. What WDW needs is some quality leadership that understands and puts into motion Lasseter's simple (but correct) business plan of great quality. If you build exciting things, people will come, including me. But as long as Disney watches their parks rust (seriously, Yeti?), cuts corners (Lights of Winter), and refuses to expand, I will not be a customer of theirs. If I keep giving them money for a mediocre experience, they will continue to give me a mediocre experience. The ball is in our court.
 

Captain Chaos

Well-Known Member
And here is where I think that Save WDW site would have helped... We could have a person on the inside taking pictures of all the failings... We could have "reporters" writing articles on the slow demise of the once great WDW resort... We can really stir up the pot if done right... And before anyone says it won't work, the power of blogs and the internet is amazing... And the power of the media cannot be denied... Someone needs to hold the powers that be responsible.. Iger isn't going to do it... So, let's force his hand and let us, the fans, do it...

I'm serious... Domain name already bought... Just need people who have time and can work on websites... Let's do this!!!!

SAVE WDW darn it!!!!!
 

John

Well-Known Member
Skip, excellent....well written! I guess we could go back and fourth with technological advances either company has "innovated". Other then WWoHP most of the other rides have a few years on them. I think IOA and what Disney is doing is different. Dont you think? As in a previous post of mine, I say that I dont think disney has to expand, build bigger and better thrill rides to bring back the parks to what they once were. Most of what you listed I agree with. I think most people go to Uni and WDW for different reasons. I also dont think you can deny that there isnt such a thing as Disney Magic...but like you I agree there is some rust showing on the Magic.


I also agree that Harry will be a big draw for many years to come and was pointing out that it was because of nostalgia those people will return.
Uni doing a great job with it is just a bonus. People would have still flocked to see it just because its HP. I think what they did with WW and Hogwarts was truly amazing. And I am not a HP fan. I think with people like me...(hardcore Disney fans) its probably more about loyalty then anything else. We would hate to turn our backs on something that has given us so much Joy.

Bottom line....To each his own....right?
 

sillykid

Member
Whether people like to admit it or not, Universal has always had some role in innovation when it comes to theme parks - Harry Potter and the Forbidden Journey is just the most recent and one of the most impressive results. The Amazing Adventures of Spider-Man is still considered to be one of the top attractions anywhere - the first ride to seamlessly combine real sets, 3D action, and motion simulator tech. Back to the Future's style of simulation was revolutionary at the time, setting the bar for motion simulation. Terminator 2:3D perfects the combination of a 3D presentation with live action elements via animatronics and stunt actors. Revenge of the Mummy created an attraction that was both a spooky (and detail-ridden) dark ride as well as a high-speed coaster. Dueling Dragons took the concept of a dual coaster and moved it past the concept of just "timing" the launches of each track - it created a computer system that insured the trains movements would be near-synonymous and nail all of the "near-miss" points. E.T. Adventure was one of the first few attractions to attempt to integrate guests into the experience with E.T.'s goodbyes by name at the conclusion of the ride... and Men in Black took the concept of a ride-through shooting gallery introduced by Buzz and amplified it to the nth degree, giving it fully dimensional (and believable) sets, grade A effects and animatronics, a compelling story, a true competition, and multiple endings.

The list goes on. Now granted many of their attempts at innovation were misguided, too complex for their time, or downright stupid (see 1990 Jaws, Sylvester McMonkey McBean, and Rip-Ride-Rockit) and they've made some poor decisions and weak efforts in their theme parks (shuttering Kong & Alfred Hitchcock, introducing Neutron, Fear Factor, and Shrek) but no theme park hasn't had failures, including Disney.

Universal is an innovator since it's setting the bar for new ride technologies, concepts, and theming - the amount of detail and effects found in Wizarding World are comparable (at least in my eyes) only to the likes of Tokyo Disney Sea and a few select areas of the domestic Disney parks. And frankly, while some areas are weaker than others (Production Central, Toon Lagoon), a majority of Universal's parks are exquisitely themed as well.

I don't mind theme parks using nostalgia - but they can't solely rely on it. If Disney was using a nostalgia-washed ad campaign to tell me to come to their parks to savor the experiences I've had there, as WELL as enjoy new exciting concepts, then I wouldn't have a problem - that's what Universal is going for with their Potter ads, targeting those who love Potter (read: a lot of people) but delivering to them a new, fantastic experience. And The Wizarding World will stand the test of time regardless of whether the franchise remains as relevant as it is today - the attractions found there are incredibly entertaining. A great attraction is a great attraction, regardless of the franchise that pulls it.

Disney is far from being doomed in terms of quality - the parks have faced rough waters before (especially Disneyland) and have navigated their way out of it. What WDW needs is some quality leadership that understands and puts into motion Lasseter's simple (but correct) business plan of great quality. If you build exciting things, people will come, including me. But as long as Disney watches their parks rust (seriously, Yeti?), cuts corners (Lights of Winter), and refuses to expand, I will not be a customer of theirs. If I keep giving them money for a mediocre experience, they will continue to give me a mediocre experience. The ball is in our court.

Bravo!:sohappy:
 

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