BTMRR refurb

[Brian Noble]

I've also seen TTD run six, but not very often. Usually one is parked. That one is interesting, because (like Millennium, IIRC) the station can do rolling blocks. However, I'm pretty sure they don't run it that way often (or hardly at all). Also, if you watch what's really going on, TTD and Maverick really run as three pairs, rather than six independent trains---TTD does this by "rotating" which trains are in "the pair" when they run with five.

Here's a really good thread from 05 on PointBuzz that talks about rolling blocks, five vs. six on TTD, etc.
http://pointbuzz.com/Forums/Thread/15953.aspx?page=1

In any event---it's not like six is some magic number. DLR's Space runs twelve.
http://rcdb.com/201.htm

As long as you have at least one more block than trains, and the blocks are all roughly equally timed, you're good to go. That means, though, that load and unload have to happen in about the same amount of time as an individual block---and that's one of the reasons that Millennium and TTD both have separate load/unload stations. Most of the time, a stack is because of a slow load.

 

[stitch2008]

I've also seen TTD run six, but not very often. Usually one is parked. That one is interesting, because (like Millennium, IIRC) the station can do rolling blocks. However, I'm pretty sure they don't run it that way often (or hardly at all). Also, if you watch what's really going on, TTD and Maverick really run as three pairs, rather than six independent trains---TTD does this by "rotating" which trains are in "the pair" when they run with five.

Here's a really good thread from 05 on PointBuzz that talks about rolling blocks, five vs. six on TTD, etc.
http://pointbuzz.com/Forums/Thread/15953.aspx?page=1

In any event---it's not like six is some magic number. DLR's Space runs twelve.
http://rcdb.com/201.htm



As long as you have at least one more block than trains, and the blocks are all roughly equally timed, you're good to go. That means, though, that load and unload have to happen in about the same amount of time as an individual block---and that's one of the reasons that Millennium and TTD both have separate load/unload stations. Most of the time, a stack is because of a slow load.

It has to do with the size of the trains though. Maverick and Dragster have smaller trains the most coasters do. Mav has 3 and I wanna TTD has 4.

 

[Thrill Seeker]

Thunder wasn't designed to run 6 trains at once. Because of how the Track Switches are set up, it can only run 5 at a time. I seriously doubt that they'll modify the ride system enough to run an extra train...

 

[dcs82009]

On a good day, Top Thrill Dragster will run 5 trains. They never run more than that (even though they have 6) because the block brake system works better (expediting loading/unloading times) when they run 5.

 

[thehowiet]

To the poster above said what they did with the rock was the cheap way out. How about saying it was the safe way out? I work on big roller coaster in the US(not at Disney or CP) and really work hard with the team to keep her running right. If they got rid of the rock for saftey reasons, then they did their job right. Ive learned this in working on my ride. Saftey > Show. You can correct bad show. You cannot correct injury or death. Go with saftey every time.

First, thanks for sharing your coaster knowledge with all of us! It's very cool to get this kind of info from someone with experience in the field.

I do agree with you that safety is more important than show. Disabling the effect was the right thing to do if it was indeed a safety concern; however, it should only be a temporary solution until a permanent and safe solution can be implemented. I'm not privy to the technical aspects of the falling rock effect, but I just can't imagine that there is absolutely no way to update and/or redesign the effect to make it safe. The decision, if in fact true, to totally remove the effect altogether and not fix it to make it safe is why I believe many fans are saying it is the cheap way out.

Disney has done, and continues to do, some pretty amazing things, which is why I just don't buy that they can't make this effect safe if they really wanted to. My guess is that they just do not want to spend the money, and if that's the case, I agree with those who say it is the cheap way out. Just my opinion.

 

[fngoofy]

btmrr definately needs some enhancements to the queue. that was pretty boring to deal with in mid july with a 6 year old with you. we didnt even get to ride cuz rain clouds were above and we didnt wanna wait in line for it to reopen. i got to ride it eventually at DL in nov. great ride.

i wonder why people hate on the 'next-gen' queue in haunted mansion of space mountain? i rode both in DL with queue's that have practically nothing and i really wasnt quite feeling it. i think a haunted cemetery or space mini games set the mood for the ride a lot more than nothing while you wait in line. i'm a relative noob when it comes to the parks and rides, but the more theming or stuff to get you in the mood for a ride, the better.

i worked at a six flags and the ride with the best theming was a road runner themed family coaster. while it being the most tame coaster in the park, the theming in the queue made it fun for me. there's an amazing superman coaster there, but NO THEMING! there could have been so much done in the queue to pump you up for the crazy coaster you're about to ride, but thats the difference between six flags and disney and even universal.

i look forward to the finished product of the btmrr refurb.... hell yeah

I can speak for myself in that I like the idea, its just a delicate operation to get the next gen additions right.

Take HM, the idea is good, but a bit over the top, and they messed with the existing grave yard. IF they had made it more like ToT and stretched it out down the side of the building (making it so you couldn't see the building of course) and kept it as more of a building of the mood it would have been better in my opinion.

Its like what Lucas did with Star Wars. If you loved the old ones, you where all for a sprucing up of the special effects, but having dinosaurs in Mos Eisley and Han shooting first is too much.

I agree with you on Space Mountain, while I wish there was something else other than video games to engage people, what else could you really do in that space and with the time limitations.

Now if they would next gen the arcade at the Space Mountain out of existence that would be something. What a waste of time and a buzz kill to all that is Disney. The old exit was way better than that lame building and its contents.

 

[invader]

You could get six trains running if you include the brake spot at the end of the ride.

 

[Kobe!!]

Really? Because Maverick runs all six nearly every time I am there....

Edit* Sorry.

 

[Spideyfreak110]

There's actually 9 zones on BTM. Each station is a block, then A Lift, then Brake Zone 1, B Lift, Brake Zone 2, C Lift, Brake Zone 3, and then Brake Zone 4 (the brake zone right before the station.)

Brake Zones 1 & 3 are normally not used to park trains, as they are on an uphill slope (stupid IMO, as there is no advancing device in these zones. But whatever...). Brake Zone 1 is in place so that a train can crest over A Lift before the next train has crested B Lift. Brake Zone 2 is in place so that a train can start cresting B Lift before the next train is completely over C Lift.

So what about stacking? In the current setup, if both stations are occupied with trains 1 & 2, and train 3 stops on Brake Zone 4, C Lift will stop train 4 at the top, at the same time stopping train 5 from going over the top of B Lift. That leaves enough room (A Lift) for train 1 to dispatch out of the station, then everything resumes as normal.

So the most number of trains they can run is 5, they have 6. And honestly, I think there is no need for another train. The ride already has outstanding capacity. I've waited in huge lines before and even though the queue was full, we never stopped moving. The ride spits out more people per hour than my grandfather could spit out sunflower seeds.

 

[invader]

There's actually 9 zones on BTM. Each station is a block, then A Lift, then Brake Zone 1, B Lift, Brake Zone 2, C Lift, Brake Zone 3, and then Brake Zone 4 (the brake zone right before the station.)

Brake Zones 1 & 3 are normally not used to park trains, as they are on an uphill slope (stupid IMO, as there is no advancing device in these zones. But whatever...). Brake Zone 1 is in place so that a train can crest over A Lift before the next train has crested B Lift. Brake Zone 2 is in place so that a train can start cresting B Lift before the next train is completely over C Lift.

So what about stacking? In the current setup, if both stations are occupied with trains 1 & 2, and train 3 stops on Brake Zone 4, C Lift will stop train 4 at the top, at the same time stopping train 5 from going over the top of B Lift. That leaves enough room (A Lift) for train 1 to dispatch out of the station, then everything resumes as normal.

So the most number of trains they can run is 5, they have 6. And honestly, I think there is no need for another train. The ride already has outstanding capacity. I've waited in huge lines before and even though the queue was full, we never stopped moving. The ride spits out more people per hour than my grandfather could spit out sunflower seeds.

You could possibly do six. Two trains in load, one in lift A, one in lift B, one in lift C, and one at the brake before the unload / load station.

 

[Spideyfreak110]

The next block out of the station has to be clear to dispatch a train. So if there is a train stacked up to A Lift, then that leaves no room for train movement. All blocks that can park a train are occupied. One of them needs to be clear so that trains have somewhere to move. Now if there was a Brake Zone between the station and A Lift, then that would work. But there isn't enough room to add it in.

It's really not even worth attempting to run more trains on that ride. It already has an insane capacity...

 

[stitch2008]

First, thanks for sharing your coaster knowledge with all of us! It's very cool to get this kind of info from someone with experience in the field.

I do agree with you that safety is more important than show. Disabling the effect was the right thing to do if it was indeed a safety concern; however, it should only be a temporary solution until a permanent and safe solution can be implemented. I'm not privy to the technical aspects of the falling rock effect, but I just can't imagine that there is absolutely no way to update and/or redesign the effect to make it safe. The decision, if in fact true, to totally remove the effect altogether and not fix it to make it safe is why I believe many fans are saying it is the cheap way out.

Disney has done, and continues to do, some pretty amazing things, which is why I just don't buy that they can't make this effect safe if they really wanted to. My guess is that they just do not want to spend the money, and if that's the case, I agree with those who say it is the cheap way out. Just my opinion.

You are more then welcome. I hear your points about the effect. But in reality, its not as simple as many make it sound like. Depending on the effect, it could take a lot of work to put in the new effect. And it could also be outrageously expensive to create and install. Running electrical and other things depending on what the effect is. And that is usually work thats better to be done during a rehab. I personally hate third shift. Either fix the darn thing or leave it till you can. Of course, all of this is dependent on if Imagineering has a permenant fix. If I have learned one thing about designers, its this. They always have their eyes on the big project and seem slightly annoyed when you ask about fixes to current attractions. At least the ones ive worked with.

There is always a reason something isnt fixed. And ive got news for you, it almost never is related to money. Compared to a normal ride, the effects cost next to nothing. Running the ride system costs way much more. And its hard to fix effects when they break and are very hard to repair when the ride is almost constantly running.

It's not that they dont wanna fix things. They do. I spend time every day fixing my rides audio system. And everyday I have to keep fixing it cause of wear and tear. Effects do get repaired, but sometimes they just keep breaking. Its hard to keep everything perfect when there are just more important things to deal with first. Things that are very time consuming and have to be done for the ride to open in the morning. We have park rules that must be followed before we open a ride in the morning. And thats in addition to all the designer, local, state, and federal regulations we must follow to make sure the ride system alone works. I think a lot of people take the ride systems for granted. They can either get you back to the station after an wonderful ride, or you may find yourself on a ride from hell that you may not live to talk about. Ride systems come first for any crew member. Effects come second, cause unless the Pirates of the Caribbean start eating the tourists, they arent gonna cause any harm. Ride systems get priority every time. Just a little fyi for you, inspecting a steel coaster like BTMRR, not including effects, usually takes 2 hours. Wooden coasters take even longer.


Another thing you need to remember is, sometimes we get messages from ride manufacuters with insturctions. They will check in from time to time to check out the rides and make sure they are running properly. Vekoma I know does this. They check their rides all the time. And if they say to do something, you listen. So if Vekoma thought the rock might be getting dangerous, they can tell the park to remove the effect. If they refuse to listen to that, Vekoma could technically refuse service going forward. So you dont wanna mess with your designer like that. Especially when they offer the post completion services that Vekoma provides its clients.

I just dont buy the whole "oh the effect broke, their cheap" thing. If its not working, theres a reason. If it was a saftey hazard, which it kinda appears to be, then maintenance did their job. Now it would be up to Imagineering to come up with the fix and make it right.

 

[RSoxNo1]

On a good day, Top Thrill Dragster will run 5 trains. They never run more than that (even though they have 6) because the block brake system works better (expediting loading/unloading times) when they run 5.

Do you mean cars per "train"? I don't see how they could run more than two vehicles on this attraction at once.

Edit: Nevermind, apparently there are dual loading zones

 

[thelookingglass]

Its hard not to think of removing the rocks as "the cheap way out" when the effect worked just fine with no incidents for 30 years, and suddenly, when lack of maintenance is visibly increasing property-wide, the rocks fail.

 

[stitch2008]

Its hard not to think of removing the rocks as "the cheap way out" when the effect worked just fine with no incidents for 30 years, and suddenly, when lack of maintenance is visibly increasing property-wide, the rocks fail.

Its hard for me to take that seriously. An effect like that is very cheap to run.

Another thing for you guys to digest. Talking with some friends tonight and we started wondering if maybe the state or feds told them to get rid of the rock. They have been cracking down on "unsafe risks" at amusment and theme parks a ton recently. Its actually very annoying. All it takes is one ignorant inspector to shut down what seems like an awesome effect.

Story time. State inspector came out to see my ride. Everything was great till he looked in the tunnel. He then told me to turn off the lights and keep them off as they could a seizure. They are basically blinking led lights. But he was determined to get our lights off. And we turned them off so he would sign off for the ride. But thats how state inspectors are. They will pick anything out and report it as dangerous if it will better their own career.

 

[stitch2008]

^ BTW, im not rulling out that TDO could be cheap greedy people.

But I dont think its wise to jump to conclusions like that in situations like that.

 

[KCheatle]

Will these be geysers that spray the trains? I hope not.

Ohh!!! I hope so!! That would be so fun! I'm not sure they would do that though - not sure it's a great idea to mix roller coasters and water? But, if they can make it work, I'm all for it! Like people have said - it gets pretty warm in Florida - I'd glady take any extra "spritzing" :sohappy:

 

[PlaneJane]

Ohh!!! I hope so!! That would be so fun! I'm not sure they would do that though - not sure it's a great idea to mix roller coasters and water? But, if they can make it work, I'm all for it! Like people have said - it gets pretty warm in Florida - I'd glady take any extra "spritzing" :sohappy:

Yea you can mix rollercoasters with water.. Matterhorn uses water brakes on one of the last portions of the ride. So does "Fire in the hole" in Dollywood. Will there be more maintenance that needs to be done? maybe..

 

[HDS]

This is where i saw work being done this past weekend.

 

[The Duck]

This is where i saw work being done this past weekend.

Maybe the flash flood is going to be turbulent again.