Brightline/Virgin Trains USA

[lazyboy97o]

If I'm not mistaken, the original HSR plan was brought about by Tampa's bid to host the (2012) Olympic games and the Olympic committee responding early on, that Tampa needed more lodging capacity, and the solution they came up with was to link the two cities via rail. I'm not sure speed was the biggest issue.

Top speed was the issue because the state was required to develop a high speed rail system. Tampa-Orlando was a short, easy route that the federal government was willing to fund for a similar reason, to claim that a “true” high speed rail line had been built. It was all about hitting a top speed and using the expensive to build and maintain equipment regardless of whether or not such equipment actually provided a benefit over other [rail] solutions. Higher speed rail like Brightline would have been a cheaper option with near similar travel times but it was not considered because it did not meet the policy goal of building high speed rail.

So instead of building a safe system that would have been separated from traffic on new tracks.

We have brightline in south Florida that goes fast and QUIET intersecting with road traffic and pedestrians causing multiple fatal incidents.

I just would have like to see this done right the first time since once its built it will be DECADES and decades before any major changes especially changes with the rails.

Cars themselves cause far, far, far more deaths. Grade crossings aren’t the problem.

 

[mm121]

You are correct that Florida HSR would have had to be completely separated and protected with no grade crossings.

But in south Florida we are talking about 80 mph max speeds with lots of warning. If a motorist or pedestrian chooses to ignore signs, Bells, flashing lights and gates they certainly may end up losing their life, but that’s true no matter how fast the train is traveling.

With the massive south FL traffic you have to be super conscious of it.

You can be driving along just fine with no signs of eminent backup and then bam your stopped on the tracks.

If you stop ahead or slow down alot before getting g on the tracks cars behind you will honk get aggressive try to hit you.

You basically risk someone going all road rage on you just to ensure you don't stop on the tracks.

Quiet zones are the biggest problem. People knew the train tracks existed before buying or renting property but then complained so much they convinced the state it's safe to not have the trains announce their coming.

When walking near but definitely not on the tracks, thankfully they put up more fencing in Delray after a person was killed crossing the tracks not at a crossing.
You just hardly even hear the train come up on you. Before you even realize it's there if you're in its path your already dead without time to react.

 

[mm121]

Top speed was the issue because the state was required to develop a high speed rail system. Tampa-Orlando was a short, easy route that the federal government was willing to fund for a similar reason, to claim that a “true” high speed rail line had been built. It was all about hitting a top speed and using the expensive to build and maintain equipment regardless of whether or not such equipment actually provided a benefit over other [rail] solutions. Higher speed rail like Brightline would have been a cheaper option with near similar travel times but it was not considered because it did not meet the policy goal of building high speed rail.

That's putting it simply.

There were also a ton of politics involved that cant be discussed hear. But the previous FL governor has connections with the Brightline so it was in his personal interest to deny that project in favor of what we have in the pipeline now.

Cars themselves cause far, far, far more deaths. Grade crossings aren’t the problem.

Quiet zones are the PROBLEM. The trains are on top of you before you even know it.

And the frequency. The tracks went from maybe 5 or 6 freight trains a day with several being at night to 36 Brightline trains alone not counting freight.

 

[halltd]

Quiet zones are the PROBLEM. The trains are on top of you before you even know it.

And the frequency. The tracks went from maybe 5 or 6 freight trains a day with several being at night to 36 Brightline trains alone not counting freight.

I lived in a building directly next to the freight tracks in Delray Beach for many years. The trains are not the problem. It's dumb people totally unaware of their surroundings. I don't care what someone is doing behind me on the road, I am NEVER going to stop on the tracks. If you do, that's your own fault. If you're not paying attention to traffic and you end up sitting on them....again, you're fault. Pay attention. Even on massively busy intersections like by Aventura Mall, I NEVER stopped on the tracks. It's not like it's hard to see them. Is it hard to be patient? Yes. THAT'S the problem.

And again, there's no need to be anywhere near the tracks where's there's not a crossing that's properly signed, gated, and alarmed. My car parked maybe 10-15 feet from the tracks in my building. But, I never walked near the tracks or across them unless it was a proper crossing. And, if I was walking across them at Atlantic, there were plenty of things to make noise and grab my attention to tell me a train was coming.

The trains are 100% NOT the issue in South Florida. It's the people. And as always, more people die in car accidents daily than have ever died by being hit by a train....by accident.

 

[biggy H]

To be honest, any rail system that will get you from one metropolitan area to another (in this case, Miami to Orlando) in a manner which makes it more attractive than flying is a step in the right direction.

Also, let's look at who's making this happen. Virgin are a major name in the UK. Virgin are launching their Cruise Line soon. This would be a great way for tourists to get between the two major vacation destinations for those coming over from the UK. High Speed rain is common in the UK so it'll make sense for them to land at MCO and take the train to parks/cruise and between them. Virgin Holidays could do entire Florida Vacation packages in transportation of their own branding. (Okay, this is just my theory on what they are doing here, but it all makes sense...at least it does to me)

Although most people in the Uk have heard of the name Virgin, most of the companies called Virgin have nothing in common apart from the fact they have licenced the name from the Virgin group, they are not part of the same company.

 

[Lensman]

I lived in a building directly next to the freight tracks in Delray Beach for many years. The trains are not the problem. It's dumb people totally unaware of their surroundings. I don't care what someone is doing behind me on the road, I am NEVER going to stop on the tracks. If you do, that's your own fault. If you're not paying attention to traffic and you end up sitting on them....again, you're fault. Pay attention. Even on massively busy intersections like by Aventura Mall, I NEVER stopped on the tracks. It's not like it's hard to see them. Is it hard to be patient? Yes. THAT'S the problem.

And again, there's no need to be anywhere near the tracks where's there's not a crossing that's properly signed, gated, and alarmed. My car parked maybe 10-15 feet from the tracks in my building. But, I never walked near the tracks or across them unless it was a proper crossing. And, if I was walking across them at Atlantic, there were plenty of things to make noise and grab my attention to tell me a train was coming.

The trains are 100% NOT the issue in South Florida. It's the people. And as always, more people die in car accidents daily than have ever died by being hit by a train....by accident.

As usual, there's some foreign country that proves that the most skilled drivers are outside the U.S.

 

[trainplane3]

As usual, there's some foreign country that proves that the most skilled drivers are outside the U.S.

Not even skilled, just attentive. It's quite easy to miss a train if you are playing Pokemon Go, while texting, with your VR headset on, while your kids are screaming in the backseat. Oh wait...it's like you should be watching what's happening in front of you.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

This is not true and is exactly what made the Tampa-Orlando high speed rail project such a boondoggle. High speed rail requires very expensive tracks and very expensive equipment. It doesn’t make sense to incur all of those significant costs if the actual speeds will not be well utilized. Hitting a higher top speed is meaningless if it doesn’t actually impact average speed and travel time.

And the idea you won’t be connected to the rest of the east coast’s major metro areas like Atlanta, Carolinas, and the NEC cities puts a low ceiling on ridership potential for all of Brightline.

 

[YorkshireT]

I’ll believe it when I see it. Virgin Trains just had to give up the U.K. East Coast line as it was losing money, so government had to take it over.

 

[Lensman]

And the idea you won’t be connected to the rest of the east coast’s major metro areas like Atlanta, Carolinas, and the NEC cities puts a low ceiling on ridership potential for all of Brightline.

I don't see that as much of a factor, as all of those metropolitan areas are beyond the sweet spot for train travel to be competitive with air travel.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

And the idea you won’t be connected to the rest of the east coast’s major metro areas like Atlanta, Carolinas, and the NEC cities puts a low ceiling on ridership potential for all of Brightline.

Connected how? Orlando is connected by passenger rail to the Carolinas and North East Corridor. Plus nothing is stopping Brightline from expanding to Atlanta....

 

[JEANYLASER]

Good Idea! I hope it will be ok with Disney!

 

[the.dreamfinder]

I don't see that as much of a factor, as all of those metropolitan areas are beyond the sweet spot for train travel to be competitive with air travel.

Connected how? Orlando is connected by passenger rail to the Carolinas and North East Corridor. Plus nothing is stopping Brightline from expanding to Atlanta....

If you’re in the position of the investors who would buy bonds from Virgin Trains you would. The utility of the system will determine its long term success. Tampa—Orlando—SoBe by itself lacks the potential of, say, the NEC. If it was fast enough, and it’s not and may never be with costly upgrades, and connected to the rest of the I-95 corridor, it could be a real rival to air travel in many markets like Atlanta, where ATL—MCO is the most flown domestic route (obviously many are connecting flights, but let’s be generous and say a third of the 1.5 million flights are passengers living in the Atlanta metro area, that’s not nothing).

But the core problem with how thIs country pursues HSR, and this isn’t real HSR, is this lack of connectivity. One route won’t determine the success or failure of a rail system; except when you’re looking to scam investors for money . The interstate highway system isn’t judged on specific intercity routes, it’s about being comprehensive, easy to use and being able to efficiently meet the driver’s needs. This is why the fact that rail connections to Orlando exist doesn’t matter to most people, it’s not a viable solution to their needs. The other Brightline WDW thread links to a trip report on Theme Park Insider of a person who took Amtrak and it wasn’t exactly a pleasant experience.

The barrier to entry for the real extension they should be focusing on, MCO to Atlanta, is that that would require too much work and money because there aren’t established right of ways like Tampa Orlando and prior HSR efforts.

I dislike Virgin Trains because it’s very likely to fail and be a black mark on private sector efforts, or public bond sales, to rebuild passenger rail infrastructure in the US. A major point of frustration in these threads about transportation/urban planning is that these decision matter and they will have consequences 50-100 years from now and we should do our best to think long term about what we give future generations.

 

[scottb411]

Orlando airport is expanding with a multi billion dollar new terminal where this train will come in and you will be able to get to Miami, Ft Lauderdale, Disney, Lakeland, and Tampa. It will also connect to SunRail at the Tupperware station that brings you into Downtown Orlando, Winter Park, Downtown Kissimmee, Sanford, and other very populated suburbs within central Florida. With WiFi on the trains and Uber/Lyft available from the stations, this is setting the stage for mass transit in Florida in 2021/2022. The original hsr from Orlando->Disney->Tampa was going to happen with Obama’s stimulus plan but Florida Governor Rick Scott killed it but they were all ready to go. It was considered shovel-ready at the time. There is also space at the new airport terminal for light rail to the convention center if approved. SunRail also has a stop a few miles away from the property that Universal just purchased on Sand Lake Road where they are going to build their new theme park.

 

[HauntedMansionFLA]

Location is by FLO and Wide World of Sports. Bus Service will be needed to get anywhere.

Or the Minnie mini van Disney operates

 

[Lensman]

If you’re in the position of the investors who would buy bonds from Virgin Trains you would. The utility of the system will determine its long term success. Tampa—Orlando—SoBe by itself lacks the potential of, say, the NEC. If it was fast enough, and it’s not and may never be with costly upgrades, and connected to the rest of the I-95 corridor, it could be a real rival to air travel in many markets like Atlanta, where ATL—MCO is the most flown domestic route (obviously many are connecting flights, but let’s be generous and say a third of the 1.5 million flights are passengers living in the Atlanta metro area, that’s not nothing).

But the core problem with how thIs country pursues HSR, and this isn’t real HSR, is this lack of connectivity. One route won’t determine the success or failure of a rail system; except when you’re looking to scam investors for money . The interstate highway system isn’t judged on specific intercity routes, it’s about being comprehensive, easy to use and being able to efficiently meet the driver’s needs. This is why the fact that rail connections to Orlando exist doesn’t matter to most people, it’s not a viable solution to their needs. The other Brightline WDW thread links to a trip report on Theme Park Insider of a person who took Amtrak and it wasn’t exactly a pleasant experience.

The barrier to entry for the real extension they should be focusing on, MCO to Atlanta, is that that would require too much work and money because there aren’t established right of ways like Tampa Orlando and prior HSR efforts.

I dislike Virgin Trains because it’s very likely to fail and be a black mark on private sector efforts, or public bond sales, to rebuild passenger rail infrastructure in the US. A major point of frustration in these threads about transportation/urban planning is that these decision matter and they will have consequences 50-100 years from now and we should do our best to think long term about what we give future generations.

I'm saying three things:
1. Atlanta-Orlando is too far for rail to be competitive. 440 miles
2. Miami-Orlando rail customers don't care whether Virgin could take them to Atlanta. They want to go to Orlando. They are going to make their decisions on whether to take Virgin based on competing alternatives in that market.
3. Miami-Atlanta is too far for rail to be competitive. 660 miles

Only Miami-Atlanta customers could help make Miami-Orlando service more profitable, but there wouldn't be that many customers for that service because it's much faster by air. Plus it's pretty cheap at $150-$200 each way.

 

[Obobru]

I’ll believe it when I see it. Virgin Trains just had to give up the U.K. East Coast line as it was losing money, so government had to take it over.

Major owner was Stagecoach and with this US Trainline Virgin also isn't the majority owner so that's irrelevant. Also the reason they gave it back is because they overpaid for a franchise.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

. Atlanta-Orlando is too far for rail to be competitive. 440 miles

Boston to Washington DC is 440 miles, that’s the length of the northeast corridor.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

I dislike Virgin Trains because it’s very likely to fail and be a black mark on private sector efforts, or public bond sales, to rebuild passenger rail infrastructure in the US.

This isn’t some guy putting a train set together for fun. This is a large business that has done a lot of market research. I can’t tell you if it will be successful or not because I don’t have a crystal ball, but I feel like it will be. I feel like it’s already successful in showing people in the USA what modern rail transit can be.

We already know people travel from Tampa to Orlando to West Palm and to Orlando. These are all major cities.

 

[Lensman]

Boston to Washington DC is 440 miles, that’s the length of the northeast corridor.

Back when I was going Boston to New York every week, there was virtually no one taking the train Boston to DC. There actually weren't that many takers for Boston to New York City as it was. The most popular route was DC to New York, which is 3 hours on the Acela compared to a flight of 1 hour and 10 minutes, but add in airport security and travel to/from La Guardia and you get something comparable.

The Acela from Boston to DC takes 7 hours, which can't overcome the shorter hour and a half flying time.

I'd have serious doubts that a high speed train from Atlanta to Orlando would be commercially successful. Besides, even if it were, my overall thesis is that an Atlanta to Orlando segment wouldn't significantly improve profitability of the Orlando to Miami segment.