Brightline/Virgin Trains USA

[mm121]

This will not be a High Speed train in the sense of what they have in Europe. It will be a "Higher Speed" train.
Trains will operate at up to 79 mph between Miami and West Palm Beach, up to 110 mph between West Palm Beach and Cocoa, and up to 125 mph between Cocoa and the Orlando Airport. The stretch leaving the Orlando airport will have a number of fairly tight turns along with the Meadow Woods station leading to the Greenway which will hold the speeds down. It should open up in the Greenway median but it may not get up to full speed before it has to start slowing for the Disney station.

Thanks I always try to explain this since if we call fake high speed rail high speed rail we will never actually see real high speed rail in the US since people will think we already have it.

Many people have no clue about the true high speed rail systems that have existed in other countries for DECADES!!

 

[mm121]

For the USA, anything above 100 is high speed rail. There is no magic number that makes it high speed rail, although for new builds it’s typically above 150.

Either way, this will be hsr as far as USA is concerned. And it’s plenty fast enough to be practical for this system.

I rode it during its first few weeks of operation and wish them a lot of success.

We shouldn't set the bar so low.
100 is nothing when compared to what other countries have been doing for DECADES!!

If we are content calling the FAKE High speed rail projects high speed then we set the bar super low and the country will never see real rail.

If we are going to do HSR we need to do it right and make it FAST

The faster it goes the more successful a project will be since a fast project has more advantages versus just driving.

 

[EricPZ]

To be honest, any rail system that will get you from one metropolitan area to another (in this case, Miami to Orlando) in a manner which makes it more attractive than flying is a step in the right direction.

Also, let's look at who's making this happen. Virgin are a major name in the UK. Virgin are launching their Cruise Line soon. This would be a great way for tourists to get between the two major vacation destinations for those coming over from the UK. High Speed rain is common in the UK so it'll make sense for them to land at MCO and take the train to parks/cruise and between them. Virgin Holidays could do entire Florida Vacation packages in transportation of their own branding. (Okay, this is just my theory on what they are doing here, but it all makes sense...at least it does to me)

 

[lazyboy97o]

The faster it goes the more successful a project will be since a fast project has more advantages versus just driving.

This is not true and is exactly what made the Tampa-Orlando high speed rail project such a boondoggle. High speed rail requires very expensive tracks and very expensive equipment. It doesn’t make sense to incur all of those significant costs if the actual speeds will not be well utilized. Hitting a higher top speed is meaningless if it doesn’t actually impact average speed and travel time.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

and there’s the problem..... in the USA, people can’t justify the actual cost of true hsr. Look at poor California...

 

[lazyboy97o]

and there’s the problem..... in the USA, people can’t justify the actual cost of true hsr. Look at poor California...

The US definitely has a cost problem where a mile of track costs multiples more than elsewhere in the world but California’s problems are different. Florida was planning to spend additional hundreds of millions of dollars to shave only a few minutes off of the travel time.

 

[halltd]

The US definitely has a cost problem where a mile of track costs multiples more than elsewhere in the world but California’s problems are different. Florida was planning to spend additional hundreds of millions of dollars to shave only a few minutes off of the travel time.

Even if it was the same travel time, I'd take a train to Miami or Tamp over driving or flying ANY DAY!!! I-4 and the Turnpike are disasters on the weekend...or any time. I'd much rather sleep, drink, work, surf the net, or ANYTHING else besides driving between those cities.

Mass transit has a ton of benefits and saving time is usually not the top one....or almost never is.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Even if it was the same travel time, I'd take a train to Miami or Tamp over driving or flying ANY DAY!!! I-4 and the Turnpike are disasters on the weekend...or any time. I'd much rather sleep, drink, work, surf the net, or ANYTHING else besides driving between those cities.

Mass transit has a ton of benefits and saving time is usually not the top one....or almost never is.

I’m not talking about mass transit not being worthwhile because it doesn’t reduce travel times. Specifically in the case of the Tampa-Orlando proposal, high speed rail did not offer meaningfully shorter travel times when compared to far cheaper conventional heavy rail or higher speed rail (like Virgin).

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

The US definitely has a cost problem where a mile of track costs multiples more than elsewhere in the world but California’s problems are different. Florida was planning to spend additional hundreds of millions of dollars to shave only a few minutes off of the travel time.

I mean that’s what HSR is.... you spend a lot of money to go as fast as possible.

I’m not sure where you are getting your info from, but hsr is expensive to build around the world. China builds it faster and cheaper, but they operate their country in a very different way and can’t really be used as a comparison.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I mean that’s what HSR is.... you spend a lot of money to go as fast as possible.

I’m not sure where you are getting your info from, but hsr is expensive to build around the world. China builds it faster and cheaper, but they operate their country in a very different way and can’t really be used as a comparison.

No, high speed rail is about getting there faster. It doesn’t mean hitting a high top speed but getting there the same time as the slow train.

I didn’t say it’s not expensive but the actual cost of any rail project in the US ends up being more than similar projects elsewhere in the world.

 

[mm121]

This is not true and is exactly what made the Tampa-Orlando high speed rail project such a boondoggle. High speed rail requires very expensive tracks and very expensive equipment. It doesn’t make sense to incur all of those significant costs if the actual speeds will not be well utilized. Hitting a higher top speed is meaningless if it doesn’t actually impact average speed and travel time.

Maybe it doesn't make lots of difference for Tampa to Orlando

But Orlando to Miami it makes a huge difference if it goes 200 mph like a Japanese bullet train vs 80 to 100 for the brightline

It's just too bad our Government didn't have a vision 3 decades ago and buy the corridors needed before everything got so densely populated everywhere. And unlike China we cant just eminent domain the property needed making just the property acquisition phase super timely and COSTLY

 

[lazyboy97o]

Maybe it doesn't make lots of difference for Tampa to Orlando

But Orlando to Miami it makes a huge difference if it goes 200 mph like a Japanese bullet train vs 80 to 100 for the brightline

It's just too bad our Government didn't have a vision 3 decades ago and buy the corridors needed before everything got so densely populated everywhere. And unlike China we cant just eminent domain the property needed making just the property acquisition phase super timely and COSTLY

Orlando-Miami may make more sense but but that does depend on factors beyond just distance. Number of stops hinders performance and volume of passengers. While traffic in much Florida sucks, it is more often due to poor urban design than the sort volume that supports high speed rail on top of air travel, conventional rail and highways in other parts of the world.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

So you’re saying what Brightline is building is appropriate for the route? Or you deem that Florida doesn’t need intercity rail service?

 

[Slov72]

So you’re saying what Brightline is building is appropriate for the route? Or you deem that Florida doesn’t need intercity rail service?

I don't want to speak for lazyboy, but my interpretation is that in Europe and other countries around the world where the population centers are tight communities with very little in between the US has a very spread out suburban community layout that makes having trains with long stretches between stops unlikely.... therefor having trains that could reach very high speeds become unrealistic due to the constant stop start..... it takes quite a while for these trains to get up to full speed. Look at Amtrak for instance in their NE corridor... they never really go more 30-40 miles without a stop and rarely can get up to their top speed let alone if they had a higher max.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Amtrak trains run at their max speed all the time on the NEC. But much of the infrastructure doesn’t allow for the top speed of 150. There are many factors for this including the lack of constant tension catenary for most of the line. Why don’t they have it? $$$.

It makes my head hurt how little people understand about passenger train travel.

High Speed Rail and Conventional Rail works all around the world. It will work in Florida just as well as anywhere else.

 

[admiralDax]

This is not true and is exactly what made the Tampa-Orlando high speed rail project such a boondoggle. High speed rail requires very expensive tracks and very expensive equipment. It doesn’t make sense to incur all of those significant costs if the actual speeds will not be well utilized. Hitting a higher top speed is meaningless if it doesn’t actually impact average speed and travel time.

If I'm not mistaken, the original HSR plan was brought about by Tampa's bid to host the (2012) Olympic games and the Olympic committee responding early on, that Tampa needed more lodging capacity, and the solution they came up with was to link the two cities via rail. I'm not sure speed was the biggest issue.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

If I'm not mistaken, the original HSR plan was brought about by Tampa's bid to host the (2012) Olympic games and the Olympic committee responding early on, that Tampa needed more lodging capacity, and the solution they came up with was to link the two cities via rail. I'm not sure speed was the biggest issue.

I’m not aware of any of that. The plan was to have a High Speed rail line that linked Tampa, Orlando, and Miami. This would have been true HSR with speeds of 160-180.

Basically Brightline is doing the same thing at a lower cost by using existing rail and keeping speeds a bit lower. I’m actually surprised they are spending the $$$ to get up to 125, 110 is much more practical with FRA class 6 track. The difference between 110 and 125 isn’t that big.

 

[mm121]

I’m not aware of any of that. The plan was to have a High Speed rail line that linked Tampa, Orlando, and Miami. This would have been true HSR with speeds of 160-180.

Basically Brightline is doing the same thing at a lower cost by using existing rail and keeping speeds a bit lower. I’m actually surprised they are spending the $$$ to get up to 125, 110 is much more practical with FRA class 6 track. The difference between 110 and 125 isn’t that big.

So instead of building a safe system that would have been separated from traffic on new tracks.

We have brightline in south Florida that goes fast and QUIET intersecting with road traffic and pedestrians causing multiple fatal incidents.

I just would have like to see this done right the first time since once its built it will be DECADES and decades before any major changes especially changes with the rails.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

You are correct that Florida HSR would have had to be completely separated and protected with no grade crossings.

But in south Florida we are talking about 80 mph max speeds with lots of warning. If a motorist or pedestrian chooses to ignore signs, Bells, flashing lights and gates they certainly may end up losing their life, but that’s true no matter how fast the train is traveling.

 

[Lensman]

I have to say that I don't really understand people who ignore the crossing signals and go around the crossing gates. I also don't entirely understand the people walking along the train tracks.

That said, I do remember crossing the tracks between crossings to get to a green grocer near my uncle and aunt's house when I was growing up.

It's not just Brightline. Lots of folks killing themselves intentionally and unintentionally with the Tri Rail.