Bob Chapek's response to Florida's 'Don't Say Gay' bill

[DisneyHead123]

What are you even talking about? The curriculum and instructional materials were already required to be online. This bill did not add that. It doesn’t add transparency. Parents could already participate in the approval process and see the materials.

A lesson plan is much more specific though.

It would be like asking a doctor to see your session notes for your last appointment, and them saying to go online and look up the treatment protocol that they use. You’d want more specifics. One is a subset of the other, or should be, but they’re not the same thing.

Edited to add - My comment was in response to a question from another poster, it wasn’t about the bill.

 

[TP2000]

Which leads us back to the circular argument that if it gender identity, etc wasn’t being taught before in k-3 and grades 3 and up were already following state standards this bill doesn’t actually change anything in the classroom.

I don't understand it either. Some public school districts in America do teach sexual orientation in 3rd Grade or younger, but Florida schools currently do not. This bill prevents Florida from following the lead of more liberal school districts around the country by including sexual orientation in 2nd grade classrooms at a future date.

But if it's not currently being taught in Florida schools in 3rd grade or younger, and everyone is cool with that, then what's the problem with the bill's language regarding sexual orientation?

Agreeing to disagree is the only way to end the circle.

True, at least for those of us who do not live in Florida. The real test to this comes in seven months, when Florida holds elections for state legislators (who wrote and/or voted yes on the bill) and for Governor (the governor who signed the bill into law will be up for re-election).

If this bill had passed next January, just after it's supporters had been elected to four year terms, that would be a problem. But almost everyone who voted yes on this bill is up for re-election in seven months. The voters of Florida have an opportunity to fire anyone who supported the bill, if a majority of Florida voters disagree with this bill, that is.

 

[Joesixtoe]

Which concerns? And how would you suggest Dems address them? Especially considering that there's a segment of the religious right that will never believe that being LGBTQ+ isn't wrong?

And that's the conundrum isn't it? Our morals here in America are divided. Laws are placed by morals and so we are making laws with which will effect the others moral ideals. Both sides will try and explain how right they are and because the lines are to ideally opposite to cross, what do you do? Tough times is where we live. However I know this is controversial but can't this bill also be called "the don't say straight bill"? So proponents will argue just leave all the sexual ideals out of the classroom curriculum from k4-3rd grade. While the opponents will feel like it's trying to purposely leave out the LGBTQ+. We have to be honest with ourselves, we live in times where we are just at opposite ends of how we feel things should be, so situations like this are going to be normal.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

And that's the conundrum isn't it? Our morals here in America are divided. Laws are placed by morals and so we are making laws with which will effect the others moral ideals. Both sides will try and explain how right they are and because the lines are to ideally opposite to cross, what do you do? Tough times is where we live. However I know this is controversial but can't this bill also be called "the don't say straight bill"? So proponents will argue just leave all the sexual ideals out of the classroom curriculum from k4-3rd grade. While the opponents will feel like it's trying to purposely leave out the LGBTQ+. We have to be honest with ourselves, we live in times where we are just at opposite ends of how we feel things should be, so situations like this are going to be normal.

Which is moral? To provide everyone with equal rights, or to single out a group and leave them vulnerable?

When have "sexual orientation" or "gender identity" ever been used to refer to straight people?

If this bill were concerned with children being taught about sex, one of the many proposed amendments that would have fixed the issue would have passed.

There is zero morality behind this bill.

 

[Angel Ariel]

One thing that is left out of this conversation seems to be teachers.

Teachers are heroes. Why is there such little trust towards teachers?

If I was a teacher right now, I’d be considering if I was in the right state.

According to a recent study from the American Psychological Association, 43% of teachers want to leave the profession.

There’s already a significant teacher shortage. There are not enough people entering teacher certification programs to cover the mass exodus happening since covid.

One-third of teachers experienced at least one incident of verbal harassment or threat of violence from students during the first full pandemic school year, and 14 percent were physically attacked, a new survey finds.

Teachers and other educators also reported receiving verbal threats from parents, colleagues, and administrators over the course of the 2020-21 school year, according to the study done by a task force of the American Psychological Association. The researchers surveyed a national sample of almost 15,000 teachers, administrators, school psychologists, and other school staff, like paraprofessionals.

The violence and harassment is taking a toll, the survey found: 43 percent of teachers said they want to quit, a finding that echoes other surveys conducted during the pandemic.

Violence, Threats, and Harassment Are Taking a Toll on Teachers, Survey Shows

A nationwide survey also found 43 percent of teachers said they want to quit.

www.edweek.org

 

[Angel Ariel]

In summary - I do agree that it's difficult to draw extremely firm conclusions about what exactly is taught in classrooms, when the media (you would probably say right wing media, I would say media on both sides of the aisle) is rather ideologically driven at the moment. One likes to think they are not simply going to make up facts out of thin air, but certainly the details are subject to interpretation.

My conclusion is that we need better information about what is being taught in classrooms. I recall not long ago that there was a proposal that teachers put their curriculum online for parents to see (can't remember where that was, exactly) and there was a big hullabaloo about how then critics would go over plans with a fine tooth comb looking for issues. I can understand how that would be a stressor for teachers, especially if the critics are acting in bad faith, but ultimately I think the transparency would be worth it. To my mind transparency is the common sense middle ground here, then - don't pass laws saying teachers can be sued if they read a book with two mommies or daddies, but do create transparency so that parents know exactly what is being taught in classrooms.

Curricula by and large are available online. Teacher’s daily lesson plans being requested for an entire year ahead of time is what the hullabaloo was about, because that’s a ridiculous expectation. Day to day Lesson plans are a necessarily fluid thing, as they change depending on the needs of the class. Maybe one unit they understand really quickly and then they run ahead, and another they all need more time and so the teacher has to take a few more days to review and cover it. Differentiation of instruction is destroyed when daily lesson plans are required for the entire year before school starts.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Question - if a parent read Wrightslaw and came into an IEP ready to self advocate, would you refer to them as “loudmouth Karen and Kevins” and “entitled”?

Just curious. Interestingly, I suspect IEP processes have hastened the idea of parents having a big say in education, because parents have always been a full fledged member of the team with veto power there.

The amount of veto power parents have in an IEP meeting vastly depends on the state. There are some states where parental consent is required to implement any changes to the IEP (I live in one, and it’s a critical parental right). There are many states that do not require parental consent past the initial IEP, and as such the veto power of parents is significantly less.

(Yes, I have much personal experience here).

 

[DisneyHead123]

The amount of veto power parents have in an IEP meeting vastly depends on the state. There are some states where parental consent is required to implement any changes to the IEP (I live in one, and it’s a critical parental right). There are many states that do not require parental consent past the initial IEP, and as such the veto power of parents is significantly less.

(Yes, I have much personal experience here).

I've never heard of the school being able to make changes without parental consent. I thought in all states it went to a "stay put" IEP without a signature.

Either way, the reason this came to mind was that I think a lot depends on framing here. In the case of IEPs, people celebrate and applaud parents getting involved in making decisions about their child's education and even their specific curriculum. In the case of parents of general ed children wanting a voice, people say it's them being horrible, entitled "Karens" and so on. I'm not even sure where I fall on the issue of how much say parents should have in education, but I do think it's worth pointing out that people will either applaud or decry pretty much the exact same thing depending on who is doing it. It seems to me that there is a lack of consistency here.

 

[flynnibus]

Either way, the reason this came to mind was that I think a lot depends on framing here. In the case of IEPs, people celebrate and applaud parents getting involved in making decisions about their child's education and even their specific curriculum

Yes, because in the case of an IEP it is by definition about ensuring the needs of the specific child are met as part of a special education program. By definition, the child is recieving an individualized thing based on their special education needs. There is no parallel to parents being involved for the purpose of trying to tailor curriculum to their individual social or political beliefs.

In an IEP meeting it's about trying to ensure the child's success and identifying what they need -- not A La carte Public Schooling. Anyone really exposed to an IEP need would recognize that.

So no, I don't buy into this hypothesis that that prior experience or mantra is fueling this new desire to be involved.

 

[DisneyHead123]

Yes, because in the case of an IEP it is by definition about ensuring the needs of the specific child are met as part of a special education program. By definition, the child is recieving an individualized thing based on their special education needs. There is no parallel to parents being involved for the purpose of trying to tailor curriculum to their individual social or political beliefs.

In an IEP meeting it's about trying to ensure the child's success and identifying what they need -- not A La carte Public Schooling. Anyone really exposed to an IEP need would recognize that.

So no, I don't buy into this hypothesis that that prior experience or mantra is fueling this new desire to be involved.

I see people here saying that The Enlightened Experts should make all decisions concerning the curriculum, because They Know Better.

Why shouldn't The Enlightened Experts make all decisions about how to educate a special needs child, because They Know Better?

In one case parental involvement is decried, in the other it is celebrated.

Again, I'm not even sure where I fall on this spectrum, of how much say parents should have in education. But I do think there is some inconsistency here.

 

[flynnibus]

I see people here saying that The Enlightened Experts should make all decisions concerning the curriculum, because They Know Better.

Why shouldn't The Enlightened Experts make all decisions about how to educate a special needs child, because They Know Better?

Uh... an IEP meeting is not the parents coming in and saying "This is how I want my child taught" or "I don't want my child doing that". The IEP process involves actual trained professional people that evaluate the child and the group proposes accommodations for the child as needed to fit their DOCUMENTED needs. The parents are involved from an approval side, advocate, and of course for knowing their child and expectations. The parental involvement is about understanding what the special education will be - because it is individualized. They need to know what is expected of them and their child, in addition to the advocating for their child's needs.

None of this has anything to do with the idea of parents being involved in curriculum or PTA like engagement with the school. Sure parents get closer with their teachers when a child has special needs and is encouraged, because it is an INDIVIDUAL things.

What your county or state curriculum is or is not - IS NOT AN INDIVIDUAL THING. Nothing about this process is about parents steering what the schools teach or not. Nothing about this process is about parents getting more active in the larger school system (except for the ideas of fighting for more services, accomodations, etc). None of this is about parents trying to 'karen' their school or teachers... that's why there is an IEP - so the plan, boundaries, and PROGRESS are all documented and serve as the arbiter for reconciliation.

IEPs are drawn up by the school's therapists, counselors, and trained special education teachers.

THAT IS THE ENLIGHTENED steering the child's IEP needs - because they actually have training and experience in it - not just what they heard surfing facebook or listening to a talking head.

In one case parental involvement is decried, in the other it is celebrated.

Again, I'm not even sure where I fall on this spectrum, of how much say parents should have in education. But I do think there is some inconsistency here.

Because you're citing things you obviously have no clue about (IEP).

Parent involvement in schools is not about trying to strike curriculum at the classroom level or lead revolts. There is a time and a place for that kind of feedback and push for change. And it's not with your individual public school teacher just trying to do their job.

If parents want to be involved in what schools teach - do it with the school boards and board of education. They can do this.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I see people here saying that The Enlightened Experts should make all decisions concerning the curriculum, because They Know Better.

Why shouldn't The Enlightened Experts make all decisions about how to educate a special needs child, because They Know Better?

In one case parental involvement is decried, in the other it is celebrated.

Again, I'm not even sure where I fall on this spectrum, of how much say parents should have in education. But I do think there is some inconsistency here.

A parent deciding what their child needs isn’t the same as that parent unilaterally deciding for thousands of children in a district. A parent working to meet the specific needs of their child doesn’t get to just not include algebra because they don’t like it for whatever reason.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

I've never heard of the school being able to make changes without parental consent. I thought in all states it went to a "stay put" IEP without a signature.

Either way, the reason this came to mind was that I think a lot depends on framing here. In the case of IEPs, people celebrate and applaud parents getting involved in making decisions about their child's education and even their specific curriculum. In the case of parents of general ed children wanting a voice, people say it's them being horrible, entitled "Karens" and so on. I'm not even sure where I fall on the issue of how much say parents should have in education, but I do think it's worth pointing out that people will either applaud or decry pretty much the exact same thing depending on who is doing it. It seems to me that there is a lack of consistency here.

I see people here saying that The Enlightened Experts should make all decisions concerning the curriculum, because They Know Better.

Why shouldn't The Enlightened Experts make all decisions about how to educate a special needs child, because They Know Better?

In one case parental involvement is decried, in the other it is celebrated.

Again, I'm not even sure where I fall on this spectrum, of how much say parents should have in education. But I do think there is some inconsistency here.

To even attempt to equate advocating for a special needs child's educational needs being met to parents attempting to change public school curriculum to what they think it should be is ludicrous and insensitive, at best. As the parent of two special needs children with extremely different needs between the two of them, I find it highly offensive. HOW DARE YOU.

In some cases, these are children who have struggles when it comes to daily self-care and/or safety, or who have experienced trauma, or who have sometimes severe language or developmental delays, or physical disabilities, who are vulnerable to bullying and manipulation by other children, and any other number of issues or combination of issues these children face. Teachers change. Classroom dynamics change. A parent's involvement is crucial to establishing educational goals for their child and ensuring that what's been proven to work for their child continues to be included in their IEP and that any new issues that arise are addressed, and so that they can ensure that their child is able to access the curriculum.

"The Enlightened Experts" as you so deridingly refer to them, ARE experts. They are experts in the fields of childhood development, child psychology, education, and educational design. Their job is to create and curate a curriculum for public schools that will provide a good education for the vast majority of children without special assistance.

Experts in those same exact fields are on the teams that develop IEPs in conjunction with the special needs child's parents.

 

[DisneyHead123]

I'm getting dogpiled so last comment on this topic.

My general point, again, however - if you celebrate parents being part of an educational team in some cases, where the need for parental voices in education is self evident, it seems odd to decry it in others.

I see that this is an uncomfortable comparison for many, however, so I'll let it go.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I'm getting dogpiled so last comment on this topic.

My general point, again, however - if you celebrate parents being part of an educational team in some cases, where the need for parental voices in education is self evident, it seems odd to decry it in others.

I see that this is an uncomfortable comparison for many, however, so I'll let it go.

Do you really not understand the huge difference in context and impact? Do you not see the difference in getting assistance for your child to learn the curriculum versus trying to unilaterally change the curriculum?

 

[Angel Ariel]

I see people here saying that The Enlightened Experts should make all decisions concerning the curriculum, because They Know Better.

Why shouldn't The Enlightened Experts make all decisions about how to educate a special needs child, because They Know Better?

In one case parental involvement is decried, in the other it is celebrated.

Again, I'm not even sure where I fall on this spectrum, of how much say parents should have in education. But I do think there is some inconsistency here.

Because the teachers aren’t the only experts in the case of a child’s disability. Teachers experience a child and their disability for a year - and then the case manager and gen Ed teacher change, and you start the next year with people leading the team who know little about your child’s needs. The parent input is required as they represent consistent experience with the child’s specific needs.

Comparing making individualized programs for students based on a disability - which only alters curriculum for *that* student - to people wanting to alter education for everyone based on their personal political or social beliefs is an apples to oranges comparison.

 

[Angel Ariel]

I'm getting dogpiled so last comment on this topic.

My general point, again, however - if you celebrate parents being part of an educational team in some cases, where the need for parental voices in education is self evident, it seems odd to decry it in others.

I see that this is an uncomfortable comparison for many, however, so I'll let it go.

No one is decrying parental input in education. Opportunities for such involvement already exist. When my district is approving new basal resources, they put together a committee. That committee includes parent representatives. Our school board has multiple advisory committees - all of which include parental representation, all of which hear public comment at every meeting (on top of public comment at twice-monthly school board meetings and any public hearings). Our school board has convened committees for drafting the school year calendar, and that has parental representatives. When books are challenged, parents are a part of the committee that decide to ban them or keep them. I could go on.

There are already ways to be involved in curriculum decisions on a local level. The people who are screaming the loudest have not been the ones who invest the time in being involved in the already existing options, yet they scream about there being no opportunities. It’s a false narrative that parents don’t have the opportunity to be involved in curriculum decisions.

 

[TP2000]

I'm getting dogpiled so last comment on this topic.

My general point, again, however - if you celebrate parents being part of an educational team in some cases, where the need for parental voices in education is self evident, it seems odd to decry it in others.

I see that this is an uncomfortable comparison for many, however, so I'll let it go.

Agreed. A lot of this started two years ago during Covid, when all the schools closed and went to Zoom. Parents could sit and watch what their children were being taught, and in some cases it made the parents confused or upset with the way the teacher was handling it. Or even that the subject matter was being discussed in lower grades.

Without the miracle of Zoom, a lot of these issues would still be unknown by the average parent. In my day, the parents said goodbye as we went out the door to school, and maybe helped with hard math homework at night. But the only time they interacted with teachers and school administrators was once per year on Parent Teacher Night, and sitting in the audience a few times per year at some horrendously bad school play or band concert.

Now, with Zoom, parents can sit and watch the classroom, observe the teacher's performance, and see the curriculum first hand. The last two years via Zoom was an eye opening experience for many parents in many school districts. Oops!

 

[Californian Elitist]

I'm getting dogpiled so last comment on this topic.

My general point, again, however - if you celebrate parents being part of an educational team in some cases, where the need for parental voices in education is self evident, it seems odd to decry it in others.

I see that this is an uncomfortable comparison for many, however, so I'll let it go.

If I went to school to be a teacher…took all the classes, passed my exams, got all my certifications, etc. to do what I needed to do as a teacher, there’s no way I’d be cool with a parent or multiple telling/demanding me to not teach their child about the California Gold Rush, for example, because they don’t want their kid to learn about it, or because it offends them, or whatever reason. I did all the work to become a teacher, but parents, particularly the ones who aren’t teachers, should be able to come in and tell me what I can and can’t teach, according to their own personal interests, political views, agendas, etc. because we’re supposed to be a team? That’s insane and ludicrous.

There are various ways for parents to be involved in their kids’ education without having a say in what teachers are allowed to teach them and what they’re not allowed to teach them. Frankly, parents need to be more active at home. They should make sure their kids understand what they’re learning, ensure that they’re completing their homework on time, and talk to them about school in general. One of my best friends is a teacher and she’s always telling me about a parent or two blaming her for their kid refusing to turn in their homework on time, even so much as contacting the school principal to file complaints about her.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

Agreed. A lot of this started two years ago during Covid, when all the schools closed and went to Zoom. Parents could sit and watch what their children were being taught, and in some cases it made the parents confused or upset with the way the teacher was handling it. Or even that the subject matter was being discussed in lower grades.

Without the miracle of Zoom, a lot of these issues would still be unknown by the average parent. In my day, the parents said goodbye as we went out the door to school, and maybe helped with hard math homework at night. But the only time they interacted with teachers and school administrators was once per year on Parent Teacher Night, and sitting in the audience a few times per year at some horrendously bad school play or band concert.

Now, with Zoom, parents can sit and watch the classroom, observe the teacher's performance, and see the curriculum first hand. The last two years via Zoom was an eye opening experience for many parents in many school districts. Oops!

Then those parents haven't been paying attention to the huge piles of papers being sent home every day. Or to the school calendar with the meeting dates and times on them.

Or how about the 20-25 annual requests from the PTA?

Or what about...I dunno...ASKING where the curriculum can be accessed?