Big changes coming to FASTPASS in March

[eliza61nyc]

As a general rule, I'm all for enforcing rules and let's face it WDW is the king of NOT enforcing their policies and I think a lot of folks know it.

Anyhoo, honestly I don't understand why simply showing up during your ride window is a huge deal. I can't imagine why you would get a fast pass and then want to use it 4 hours late.

I think in the long run it is a good thing.

 

[eliza61nyc]

Because, as stated by Donald Dole Whip, myself, and others COUNTLESS times, we were told by numerous CMs and managers that it WASN'T considered a "rule" that you had to use the pass within that hour, only a "guideline", and that it WASN'T considered "breaking the rules" to return "late" between your hour and park closing.

Therefore, from our point of view, we don't see this as "the rules are now going to be enforced". We see it as Disney CHANGING the rules. Which is going to be disappointing for those who enjoyed the much greater spontanaiety, flexibility, leisurely pace, and less clockwatching/backtracking provided by the old rules we are used to.



One of the strengths of Americans is having the ingenuity to explore their interest and passions to the fullest through work, research, preperation, and experience, and finding ways to get maximum enjoyment.

This lead to those who investigated the nooks and crannies of how the FP system actually worked in the parks to discover the wonderful benefit of them not expiring until park closing. If not everyone knew about this I am sorry, but Disney made no secret of it for years. Any CM you would ask would openly tell you, including managers, and the stormtroopers in this official Disney-sanctioned preshow said the same thing, basically enouraging the practice (beginning at 1:55): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C1KJS3aOtQ

I found out about it my first day using the system, because my instinctive gut reaction was that the one hour window made the system too regimented and I wanted to know what the leniency was for being "late". So I asked an attractions manager about it my very first day using the system, and when I was told "They are good until closing as long as you use it after your first time", I immediately fell in love with the system!

Then why get the fast pass in the first place?

Sorry but this sounds like the height of selfishness to me. Yes, I want to ride the ride at my leisure but if it ties up the system and creates back log well thats simply too bad because I want the flexibility to do what I want?

Wasn't the intent of the fast pass to give some one a quasi schedule time to ride, providing them with the ability to decrease wait time?

What happens when you and 70 other people who have return times between 1-3 show up at 7 pm because you decide to go swimming? Doesn't that then put additional burden on the folks who have return times at 7 pm? thus clogging the system?

I like how you call these loop holes "nooks and crannies".

Personally, I am a firm believer that the reason companies come down with regulations is because people begin to ABUSE the system (nooks and crannies) in a way it was not intended to.

So maybe you have no one but yourself to blame for these new regulations. As I said Disney is the King of not enforcing their regulations. God forbid they make a guest unhappy. So it must have been a glaring problem indeed to cause them to bring the hammer down on the fp system.

Kudos to disney.

 

[DisneyJoe]

For decades, Disney Cast Members were instructed to watch out for guests because they "checked their brains at the gate." This was in the actual literature handed out to CMs.

FastPass seems obvious to you. It seems obvious to me. Well, so does the fact that the fireworks are behind Small World and that the 3:00 parade arrives at the hub from 3:20-3:50. But it's far from obvious for an infrequent visitor.

Thanks Kevin.

I've seen people not know that the attractions were inside the buildings - they expected everything to be outside like a Six Flags....

As a travel agent, I also get feedback from clients AFTER their trips, not just before, and even though we have given them much info on FastPass, many come back upset that they had no idea what it was. I can only assume that they never read what we have given them or remembered what we have discussed in person or on the phone - usually multiple times. This also tells me that they didn't see it at the park when they were there, on a map or otherwise.

"checking their brains at the gate" fits perfectly.

 

[SAV]

It certainly would be a lot clearer if the grace period (20 to 30 minutes) were incorporated into the return time. Then there wouldn't be all this back and forth about whether that guy who used his FP 15 minutes too late or 5 minutes too early is a cheater, scammer, abuser, scum of the earth, etc.

I honestly think that doing what you suggest wouldn't make a bit of difference at all. Some people would still complain because the 1:20 or 1:30 window printed on their FP doesn't fit into their schedule and would then want another :15 grace period on to that. Then the complaints would be that Disney is strictly enforcing that window and they aren't allowing any extra time for X or Y problems getting to the ride within that expanded window. A vicious circle.

Yes, I understand that they weren't enforcing the window, but will now be enforcing it. As I stated way earlier in the thread, if you don't like the new rules around the FP, you aren't required to use it. Was it nice that they weren't before...sure was. It's an adjustment that everyone will have to make.

 

[TRIFORCE89]

I'll miss being able to stock up on FastPasses during the day and hitting everything in a row later on, but I suppose this new strict enforcement is for the better. We shall see!

I didn't know you could do that. Doesn't it reject the ticket if your current window has happened yet?

I didn't have a problem with the open-ended return time. It was allowed (although perhaps not explicitly), so I don't think badly upon anyone who took advantage of it.

But, now it's changed and that's that I guess. It won't change things for a lot of people.

 

[David S.]

I didn't know you could do that. Doesn't it reject the ticker if your current window has happened yet?

It doesn't keep track of whether or not you USE the pass, only when you get it. So if you get your first FP at 9 AM with a 10 AM return time, you can get your next FP at 10 AM whether you used the first one yet or not. Then, you can get the next one at the exact moment your next return time begins or at 2 hours from the time you got your last one - whatever happens first. Since they don't scan the FP or anything when you hand it to the CM they don't keep track of when you use the FP, so whenever you scan your ticket or AP for say, your 7th FP of the day, it has no idea whether you have used the previous 6 or whether they are still in your pocket.

 

[PolynesianPrincess]

THIS is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. This is YOUR fault, not Disney's. You chose to get a FP with a return time that could very easily be missed due to your dining time. The return times are clearly marked before you even get a FP, and unless you've never eaten in a restaurant before, anyone with common sense would know that dining can easily be a two hour experience. Add to that the location of the dining and the nearest FP attraction, and it is clear that it would almost be impossible for you to have made the FP return window. Not Disney's fault. Entirely yours.


Again, not Disney's fault. You know before you get the FP what the current return window is, and you already had FPs telling you when to be back at the other attractions. So it's your own fault. You didn't have to get FP's for all of those, especially since they are nowhere near each other. If you can't make it back to the attraction within the window, don't get the pass. IF you get a FP for Space Mountain, why on earth would you head over to Splash Mountain knowing you might miss the return window for Space Moutnain?


Again, you already know BEFORE collecting a FP what the return time is. Even if people could pick their own own return time, they would still show up late, offering the same lame excuses that are being offered in this thread.


It's not exactly the same, as noted below.



But they don't. They actually get seated earlier. Disney doesn't hold the table for guests. So if you have 6pm ADR and haven't checked in, then other diners with ADRs who have checked-in will be seated. At an attraction, when people show up outside of the return time, standby guests wait longer.



Again, it doesn't, because they don't hold tables. If you don't check-in, they pretty much ignore the reservation and move along.

We did all that BECAUSE Disney allowed late returns with the FP's. Simple as that. And NEVER in our experience going to Disney have we had a meal take long than an hour, maybe an hour fifteen, except for that one time. And I have common sense, thank you very much.

And you are very incorrect about Disney checking in other folks who are on time for their ADR before people who are late. Example: I was behind a woman at Crystal Palace who had 8:00am reservations. Checked in at 8:15am. We checked in at 8:15 for our 8:20 reservations. 10 minutes passed and she was still seated before us. I feel like if they're going to crack down on FP and not allow late returns (past the grace period) then they should crack down on dining. You're not there when you're supposed to be to check in, there goes your ADR, no questions asked. People showing up late are the reasons for the long waits for ADR's... But I digress....

I'm all for Disney making sure you arrive between the times printed on your FP. I never said I wasn't. All I was pointing out was Disney allowed us to use our FP later than the posted time. It's not MY fault as you pointed out a few too many times. It's Disney's choice to let me use it late, not my own.

You know, some of you on here are very rude and don't know how to hold an adult conversation without resorting to insults. It's ridiculous how childish some of you are. Your opinion is just that.. YOUR OPINION. It's not fact yet you act like it is. Stop trying to shove how you feel down other peoples throats. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If someone likes the way they use the FP system now, so be it. It's not up to you to tell them they should feel differently because that's how you feel. It's really sad and pathetic how some of ya'll act. Grow up.

 

[Brian Noble]

But at the same time, I (like you) wonder why they don't just make the FIXED return period longer to account for it.

I think part of this is just due to human behavior and psychology. The five minutes early period helps reduce congestion at the Return queue from guests who show up "on time" (but really end up showing up a bit early). The fifteen minutes late accounts for the fact that everything takes an inexperienced guest longer than they think it will. So, the point isn't that the hour is (or isn't) too short. The point is that some fraction of people will try to hit the beginning or end of it exactly, but get it a little bit wrong. If you have a 75 (or 80) minute return time, you'd still have people showing up a little bit before it started, and a little bit longer after it ended, even if they were trying to do the right thing.

As near as I can tell, this was exactly the reason for the prior policy---after is fine, because people mis-time their expectations. But, rather than have a hard allowance, it was "anytime today." The average guest has no idea, and is still probably within the 15 minutes. Guests who were savvy to the policy's implementation took it as carte blanche.

I'd even go out on a limb and suggest that the 5min/15min numbers were derived from some of the tests/data collection they ran a few months back as a way to capture some significantly high percentage of all returns.

 

[RSoxNo1]

I've often wondered the same thing about the wait times. But you have to consider that several of their queues are variable-length. If they open up a set of switchbacks, the guest capacity changes instantly. They'd spend too much time updating the program to keep track of the queue length. So, unfortunately, their current method really is the best one...for now.

But there's no reason the MK can't have an automated tip board, much like Epcot. And there's no reason they can't push them out through an app, like you mentioned.

I also agree with the central FP kiosk. A little more time spent working on the code for the backend software, and they could offer significantly more Fastpasses, offer them through various distribution methods, and still maintain acceptable Standby and FP queue waits.

It's just like the bus dispatch system. They have an incredible tool at their fingertips, but they don't put in the time or money to utilize the systems to their full potential.

The queue length is irrelevant - it's how many people are in line between the load station and a certain point, not the size of the queue. People density in the queue is also highly variable.

You solve this by putting a counter at the ride load, and a counter at the ride's queue entrance. The delta between those two numbers is how many people are in line. Then you know the ride's capacity, so you divide the # of guests by the ride throughput and you'll get a time in how long it will take from that point to the ride.

But the number is only theoretical. It's hard to model what the true ride utilization will be on many rides because the rider capacity varies so much by the type of guests, etc. Example, a classic dark ride may fit one or two people per bench. Then ride cycle time will vary based on individual guests as well, causing dispatch times to increase unpredictably. Even onmimover attractions may slow down due to guest load, etc.

Taking those factors into account, predicting actual ride throughput is difficult. You know the maximum potential, and you can measure past performance, but true performance is going to be based on human variables.

Probably the most reliable measure would be to simply measure rider throughput over several recent time windows. Then you have an average recent rider throughput.. use that with the number of people in the queue and you can get a reasonable estimate.

My guess is Disney prefers a smoother calculation to avoid having the wait boards change too frequently.

Flynn basically summed up my explanation of this. We talked about this with Len Testa and Fred Hazelton a few weeks ago - Disney should know how many guests are in their queue at any one time, and they should know the ride capacity in all of it's iterations (changes in # of vehicles, staffing, etc).

As they explained on the show, basically the red key cards are explaining what the wait time was in the past. A 40 minute wait that's resulting from key card information means that the wait was 40 minutes, when someone got in line 40 minutes ago.

To further complicate this, you have rides with varying capacity, depending on how many vehicles are active. With a ride like ToT, the computer could easily compensate for added capacity when another shaft is opened, or more elevators are brought online. But when they manually bring logs into Splash, or boats into Pirates, the CMs would have to log it into a computer so that the software could adjust.

Sounds like TouringPlans.com actually has the best solution....gobs of historical data, and excellent use of statistics. They're often more accurate than Disney.

Counting guests in the queue is the best way to do it. Disney can easily do this, they just don't. The only potential issues I see are cast members that pass through the counting sensor and disrupt the count, but even that can be accounted for. It could also be problematic if guests aren't in the actual queue yet.

I am not positive, but I believe I recall hearing that Disney trademarked the name.

I have heard it will start with deluxe and then 'could' move on to DVC after which Disney will do further evaluation. I've also heard this will be a guaranteed offering for Four Seasons guests if/when that resort ever opens.

No idea on price. And, no, not simply a concierge guest deal -- although I would bet it is first tossed out to them and then all deluxe guests.

All of the above are going to have to be addressed before NEXT GEN ever goes live ... now, that may be three years from now at this point. ... But in order for everything to 'work' they can't just sort of make it up as they go along as they have been doing.

Thanks for the info - it seems like there is still quite a bit unknown, so while I have your attention I've got a few more questions.

• What is the roleout time frame for xPass?
• What new attractions are getting Fastpass? I believe you mentioned The Seas with Nemo and Friends, Spaceship Earth, and The Great Movie Ride.
• Is there any real advantage to a system that at best is over complicated? Couldn't they in theory just gift guests paying a premium access to the equivalent of the perks granted by the Guest Assistance card?

I don't really want to comment without knowing the individual, their background and what they were hired for ... but the thought of people from these sites being hired isn't generally something I look upon as a positive.

Do you know like the precedence it sends? Personally, I see this as a positive. I don't know the individual that was hired either, but I know that at this point I trust their wait time information more than Disney's wait time information. I can also hope that whoever it is at touringplans will help make these things more efficient.

 

[David S.]

Anyhoo, honestly I don't understand why simply showing up during your ride window is a huge deal. I can't imagine why you would get a fast pass and then want to use it 4 hours late.

There are numerous reasons, far too many to mention, but I will cite a few:

a) The return time is for say, 10 AM but the ride is still a total walk-on in standby at this time. Using the FP during the return time in this instance is essentially throwing it away, since it won't actually save you any time. Use standby again, take your walk-on, and save that FP for later in the day when the line will likely be significantly longer and you may be in the mood for a reride.

b) You start the day with Space Mountain (or Everest, Rock and Roller Coaster, etc) and ride multiple times in a row right after rope drop, while the ride is still a walk-on. While standing next to the FP machine first thing in the morning, you get a FP for later just in case you decide to ride again much later in the day, when the lines are much longer. Maybe you will make it back to this attraction and maybe you won't, but if you do finish everything else you want to do in the park to make it back for an encore much later, that FP acts as an "insurance policy" that a potential 90 minute wait will be just 5-15 minutes instead. And the reason you don't go back for your "1 hour window" is because you already just rode the same ride 2 or 3 times less than an hour ago, and at this point you are in another part of the park, eager to do OTHER things.

c) You are visiting with family (or in my case, they are visiting me). They aren't "early birds", but if one person in the group (ie, me) is, you can go to the park at rope drop and have them meet up with you later. Using YOUR ticket, you can get a FP for 1 or more people in the group who isn't there, one at a time, until you have one for each person in the party. Because you only used your ticket to get the passes for said attraction, they will all be for different times, but since they've always allowed the passes to be used anytime between the first time and park closing, the entire group can ride together, when the others in your party/family/friends finally make it to the park and the time for the last FP ticket opens up.

d) You are at Hollywood Studios. This, more than any other WDW park, is a show park, and seeing all the shows you want to see in one day already means doing a lot of backtracking to make sure you can line them all up and get them all in. Beauty and the Beast, Playhouse Disney, Little Mermaid, Indy, Lights Motors Action, the 3'o clock parade, American Idol, Jedi Training Academy, etc, are all things that take place at set times. Once you figure out a strategy to make sure you get all the shows you want to see done that day, you may often find yourself with times of 15 or 20 minutes to kill between shows, which isn't really enough time to guarantee doing any of the attractions at that park, even with a FP. But since Disney allows "late" arrivals, if your 1 hour window occurs during a period where you are getting all the shows done, you may indeed find it beneficial to save that FP for much later in the day, when it won't conflict with any of the showtimes you want to see.

These are just a few obvious examples I can think of off the top of my head, all based on personal experience. I could list more, but you get the idea

 

[71jason]

[*]Is there any real advantage to a system that at best is over complicated? Couldn't they in theory just gift guests paying a premium access to the equivalent of the perks granted by the Guest Assistance card?[/list]

Like a competitor up the street? Scrap the rest of the system?

BTW, I haven't read every post, but no one seems to have mentioned that when Universal severely limited their FP program (went from the Disney model to solely a few thousand hotel guests and those willing to pay $40 - $80, depending on season), lines ended up going down considerably. Spider-Man and Mummy used to routinely go to 60+ minutes on weekends; rarely see over 30 - 40 now, even with an influx of Potter guests.

 

[georgia632]

Good, doesn't effect me in the slightest. When/If I use Fastpass, I always came back in the allowed times.

Same here. I use fast pass but I've always been on time.

 

[michael.fumc]

This will just cause more problems!

Thunderstorms, ride with short term breakdowns, will make a huge headache for cast members having to deal with these problems. The old system was fine and fair. I agree that the new system must have something to do with this I can't wait to hear WHAT IT WILL BE.

 

[David S.]

Then why get the fast pass in the first place?

To use it.

Sorry but this sounds like the height of selfishness to me. Yes, I want to ride the ride at my leisure but if it ties up the system and creates back log well thats simply too bad because I want the flexibility to do what I want?

Wasn't the intent of the fast pass to give some one a quasi schedule time to ride, providing them with the ability to decrease wait time?

What happens when you and 70 other people who have return times between 1-3 show up at 7 pm because you decide to go swimming? Doesn't that then put additional burden on the folks who have return times at 7 pm? thus clogging the system?

I like how you call these loop holes "nooks and crannies".

Personally, I am a firm believer that the reason companies come down with regulations is because people begin to ABUSE the system (nooks and crannies) in a way it was not intended to.

So maybe you have no one but yourself to blame for these new regulations. As I said Disney is the King of not enforcing their regulations. God forbid they make a guest unhappy. So it must have been a glaring problem indeed to cause them to bring the hammer down on the fp system.

Kudos to disney.

No, this is being done because of the "next gen" x pass: http://www.wdwmagic.com/Other/FASTPASS/News/06Feb2012-Big-changes-coming-to-FASTPASS-in-March.htm

Statistically, showing up "late" is simply giving all of the people who would have been in back of you "cuts" by one person because you weren't there. Until you use the pass later and things equalize. So for the 70 people you mention showing up "late" at 7 PM - lets say they were all for the 3 PM hour - this means that 4 hours worth of people got on 70 people QUICKER than they would have had those people been "on time". It all evens out at the end of the day.

Because even if a lot of people come "late" at the same time, reclaiming their virtual place in line, this means that those same people weren't there earlier, so if 70 people show up "late" in the 7 PM hour, that means everyone up to that point in standby got on 70 people earlier. Since standby is AHEAD by 70 people at this point, having the 70 "late" people return all at once just puts the standby line back to where it would have been anyway, had they all been "on time". You only notice the backup when the queue gets backed up because by nature that is more noticible. You aren't going to notice the times you actually get on the ride earlier than you would have because a FP was used "late", (or not used at all), but those instances occur for every time a person is "late". It all balances out at the end of the day.

As Kevin eloquently put it:

My prediction is that April 2012 will look a lot like April 2011 in the standby line. The late return people is a great scapegoat until you think on a 'system' level.

If they didn't return at 3pm for a 3pm-4pm fastpass, then that means the 3pm standby line was moving fast! (and yes, it means the 9pm standby line was moving slowly)

If you enforce return times, you speed up the 9pm standby line... but slow down the 3pm standby line.

I'm not expecting a big difference on this count.

And as far as your acusations of "selfish" and "ABUSE" (in all caps!) -

There is nothing "selfish" or "abusive" about using the system to my maximum benefit, using the rules the were explained to me by several MANAGERS within the actual parks.

But hey, haters gonna hate, and sticklers gonna stickle!

 

[PorterRedkey]

Expanded return window

Right now, you usually get an hour or so return window.

What if they just expanded the return window to 2 hours or more? They could keep the addition of entry 5 minutes before the return time and have a discretionary, unspoken, 30 minute window after the actual window has expired. :shrug: The cast member could use the Stand-by queue time as their guide whether to allow entry during this time. If the Stand-by queue is 10 - 15 minutes okay, but if the SB queue is 30 minutes or more no entry. Guests should expect the FP to expire at the time indicated, but this would at least allow a little flexibility

Does anyone know if this has been suggested? Not the whole extra 30 minutes thing, but an expanded return window? It seems this might make it easier to navigate a stricter FP system.

 

[puntagordabob]

Couldn't they in theory just gift guests paying a premium access to the equivalent of the perks granted by the Guest Assistance card?

The GAC is not a perk but rather a service used by handicapped people to have easier access the various rides, shows, etc.

 

[draybook]

To use it.



No, this is being done because of x pass. Statistically, showing up "late" is simply giving all of the people who would have been in back of you "cuts" by one person because you weren't there. Until you use the pass later and things equalize. So for the 70 people you mention showing up "late" at 7 PM - lets say they were all for the 3 PM hour - this means that 4 hours worth of people got on 70 people QUICKER than they would have had those people been "on time". It all evens out at the end of the day.

Because even if a lot of people come "late" at the same time, this means that those same people weren't there earlier, so if 70 people show up "late" in the 7 PM hour, that means everyone up to that point in standby got on 70 people earlier. You only notice the problems when the queue gets backed up because by nature they are more noticible. You aren't going to notice the times you actually get on the ride earlier than you would have because a FP was used "late", (or not used at all), but those instances occur for every time a person is "late". It all balances out at the end of the day.

As Kevin eloquently put it:



And as far as your acusations of "selfish" and "ABUSE" (in all caps!) -

There is nothing "selfish" or "abusive" about using the system to my maximum benefit, using the rules the were explained to me by several MANAGERS within the actual parks.

But hey, haters gonna hate, and sticklers gonna stickle!

See, there you go inserting common sense and logic into this debate! How dare you do that!


Seriously, this is so true though. It all evens out.

 

[YuggYuggWDW94]

I will dispute that. I still think the lines ran smoother in the pre-fastpass days. You always knew your wait time based on size of line. No mystery of playing the FP ebb and flows. And based on my trip to Disneyland in January, FP can be an unadulterated mess. I agree with what a lot of folks say about DL giving more bang for the buck but it does has it own issues. In three days, I never saw so many e-ticket rides going 101 at various times. I will say that aspect is a lot less prevalent at WDW.

I also agree with those who think the grace period should be larger. 45 minutes to an hour does not seem totally unreasonable. Probably optimal. I am hoping that they will experiment with this time structure. With that said, I already have a vacation set that goes thru March 7. So I will mass hoard one more night and then play by the new rules the next day.

I will agree that the lines may have run smoother in the pre fast pass days..however, now that we have fast pass taking it away would cause havoc.

 

[fosse76]

If this were true.. they would be running empty trains for 20mins? I don't think so. I think you have a misunderstanding between the question and the answer.

Actually, I've seen that happen myself. I got in line at BTMRR...well there was no one in line...but was stopped at the FP collection point. No one was behind me and no one was in the FP line. I stood there until someone with a FP came in. There wasn't much of a line on the ramp leading to the load area, so that's not why I was stopped. So your comment is inappropriate.

They need to let FP through first, yes. But that may not have explained your backup at that time.

And this is why return times need to be enforced. If they had been, there wouldn't have been a back-up (that, and if Disney reduced the number of available FPs).

They wouldn't be running empty trains without asking the merge guy 'where is everyone?'

Many FP attractions have a wait time of 10-15 minutes after the merge point, so it is entirely possible for standby to stop dead for a few minutes without anyone at load noticing.

 

[38053WDW]

Then why get the fast pass in the first place?

Sorry but this sounds like the height of selfishness to me. Yes, I want to ride the ride at my leisure but if it ties up the system and creates back log well thats simply too bad because I want the flexibility to do what I want?

Wasn't the intent of the fast pass to give some one a quasi schedule time to ride, providing them with the ability to decrease wait time?

What happens when you and 70 other people who have return times between 1-3 show up at 7 pm because you decide to go swimming? Doesn't that then put additional burden on the folks who have return times at 7 pm? thus clogging the system?

I like how you call these loop holes "nooks and crannies".

Personally, I am a firm believer that the reason companies come down with regulations is because people begin to ABUSE the system (nooks and crannies) in a way it was not intended to.

So maybe you have no one but yourself to blame for these new regulations. As I said Disney is the King of not enforcing their regulations. God forbid they make a guest unhappy. So it must have been a glaring problem indeed to cause them to bring the hammer down on the fp system.

Kudos to disney.

You can easily see in todys America this is what we have created, a generation of me me me me .. This is why my parents don't go anymore ... they are sick of the whiners ....:hurl: