News Big changes coming to EPCOT's Future World?

CaptainAmerica

Premium Member
@CaptainAmerica, I think you just inadvertently made the argument for newer rides instead of IPs for a lot of people. Yes, before they were released as movies not a ton of people knew the story of The Snow Queen nor did a ton of people read enough comics to know about the Guardians of the Galaxy. While they weren't financial investments on the level of Star Wars Episode VII or the Avengers movies, they were still slight gambles, Disney hoping that people would see that Disney animation was making Frozen and that Marvel Studios was making GotG, take that as a positive sign, and say "ok, I may not know these stories/characters, but I trust those studios so I'll give them a try". They paid off. Why should that mentality not apply to the theme parks, then? The Disney theme park brand name still has a tone of cultural cache, and Disney has a history of taking original concepts and turning them into highly successful theme parks, rides, and attractions, so why not take some calculated risks and gambles there rather than falling back on what's considered "safe", albeit potentially transient?
I don't think these things are mutually exclusive. Something can feature existing IP and be a well-executed attraction. People equate "IP" with "cheap overlay," and I think that's a huge leap. I fully object to cheap overlays, but everyone said Frozen would be a cheap overlay and it wasn't one.
 

RoysCabin

Well-Known Member
I don't think these things are mutually exclusive. Something can feature existing IP and be a well-executed attraction. People equate "IP" with "cheap overlay," and I think that's a huge leap. I fully object to cheap overlays, but everyone said Frozen would be a cheap overlay and it wasn't one.

I don't think most people would argue that IP automatically equates with awful and lazy; there is a reason, after all, so many people still miss Mr. Toad in the Magic Kingdom, why Star Tours has tons of fans, and why so many today love Wizarding World at Universal. I would argue that a lot of current IP-centric work has missed some of the fundamentals of what made previous similarly styled attractions work well, but that doesn't entirely disqualify the genre.

What does become an issue to most fans, I'll wager, is when the perceived need to do these overlays leads to situations where themed areas are suddenly no greater than the sum of their parts, when proper theming is disregarded or otherwise neglected to create a single successful attraction in a given area rather than addressing a larger scope issue to make an entire park or section of a park successful.

More than that, however, has to be the simple reality that WDI has not been given the opportunity to create a single non-pre existing IP attraction in the US since Iger's administration began; that begins to wear on many park fans, and even fans who haven't been as longterm as many of us here. The "ride the movies" concept can be done well, but for many of us Disneyland/WDW were set apart due to a willingness to offer experiences beyond that, and thus one generation fell in love with Pirates, Mansion, and the Jungle Cruise, another with EPCOT Center, another with the Great Movie Ride and '94 New Tomorrowland, another with Animal Kingdom, another with the renovated DCA, etc., experiences that were very "Disney' yet highly unique from Disney TV and media, experiences exclusive to theme parks. To push so far the other way places limits on what a "Disney experience" can be, as the bank of ideas becomes limited to what's in one's blu ray player or queued up on Netflix. Again, this doesn't mean those rides can't be done well, but that the overall experience is made to feel more constricted to a certain set of ideas.
 

wdwfan4ver

Well-Known Member
I was at WDW in April 2015, January 2016, and May 2016, and I haven't done anything Frozen related whatsoever. It wasn't that hard to "escape it." It replaced Maelstrom and has a temporary show at DHS, a park currently in desperate need of temporary shows. Frozen Ever After is wildly popular and Maelstrom was often a walk-on. The ride also features cutting edge AA tech. By any objective measure, it was a major upgrade.
Frozen was less avoidable for me unlike you. Not everything from Frozen was avoidable when I was there in 2014 and 2015. I was there at DHS during The Frozen promotion DHS had in summer of 2014 and 2015. DHS had Summer Frozen Fun in 2014 and you really couldn't avoid it. The fact is the park had Olaf talk on Hollywood BLVD and that was something couldn't avoid if you went to DHS during the summer of 2014. I was there when DHS had their return of Frozen Summer Fun in 2015.

I saw Olaf right away both years. That wasn't avoidable at all unlike the Frozen Sing-a-long. I did like the Frozen Fireworks though. In 2014 DHS had even more Frozen than in 2015 during the time I went. My point is Frozen at DHS wasn't as avoidable as you make sound.

The Frozen-Sing-a-Long isn't a temporary show because its been there since of 2014 despite its located was moved.
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
That's what the theme parks are. It's a place where beloved characters come to life.

If you believe this, then you will never understand why some are so against the idea of basing all future attractions on existing movie properties.

Some of us are aware of the fact that for WED/WDI's first 40 years, the focus was on creating original, innovative, well maintained experiences with multi-generational appeal. That was what made Disneyland, the 1964 World's Fair, WDW & Tokyo Disneyland so successful, and what made them "Disney".
 

JWG

Well-Known Member
Some of us are aware of the fact that for WED/WDI's first 40 years, the focus was on creating original, innovative experiences with multi-generational appeal. That was what made Disneyland, the 1964 World's Fair, WDW & Tokyo Disneyland so successful, and what made them "Disney".

These days, unfortunately, are likely over. The benefit of the parks is the opportunity to sell to a captive audience the other Disney properties. As Disney has become a much larger media and IP giant, having a captive audience to essentially pay you to spend multiple days being advertised to is too hard to pass up. While Walt and his followers may have seen the parks as a differentiated part of the Disney family, something to be invested in as a stand-alone, that is (seemingly) no longer true.

Now, the parks seem to be seen as what they probably should be in the mind of a large corporation - a media outlet and direct connection to the consumer. Keeping the Disney IP library in front of milions of local and international tourists each year help sell those properties in their other formats (movies, merchandise, plays, etc.).

I don't think that will change as unfortunate as we may think it is.
 

The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
There will always be trees between the countries. The pads in WS are set back a bit.
It's not so much the loss of trees* I regret, as the stuff that gets build.

*Although, almost through sheer luck, WS looks gorgeous with the large areas of green in between countries. These were designed to be filled in, developing WS into a denser experience. But when that didn't happen, WS had accidently hit design gold. The empty plots give a sense of vastness, and of isolation to individual countries too. Creating serendipitously a magnificent combination of monumentalism and intimacy.
 

RoysCabin

Well-Known Member
These days, unfortunately, are likely over. The benefit of the parks is the opportunity to sell to a captive audience the other Disney properties. As Disney has become a much larger media and IP giant, having a captive audience to essentially pay you to spend multiple days being advertised to is too hard to pass up. While Walt and his followers may have seen the parks as a differentiated part of the Disney family, something to be invested in as a stand-alone, that is (seemingly) no longer true.

Now, the parks seem to be seen as what they probably should be in the mind of a large corporation - a media outlet and direct connection to the consumer. Keeping the Disney IP library in front of milions of local and international tourists each year help sell those properties in their other formats (movies, merchandise, plays, etc.).

I don't think that will change as unfortunate as we may think it is.

We certainly saw shades of that during the 90s, as well (think back to all the ABC show signs all over MGM Studios after the Capital Cities purchase), but yeah, it definitely has grown. What I think I'm most curious about is how effective that will prove to be over the long haul versus the creation of more unique attractions.

I mean, Disney characters have always been used on some level to sell the concept of a Disney theme park; if not, they wouldn't have had costumed characters appearing right from the get-go in 1955. Yet the parks themselves for most of their existence seemed to use the characters as a lure, but really hook people in via the unmatched theming and unique creations from WED/WDI, though there was still always a place at the table for meeting the characters or riding some movie-themed rides like Peter Pan or Snow White. It was this aspect, the more creative aspect, I'd argue, that created the lifelong Disney theme park fans, the type of people who visit Disneyland every weekend or who set their vacation calendars around arriving in Orlando at least once a year, and who think "I HAVE to share this with my kids in the future". The familiar was used to market and support the unfamiliar, but the unfamiliar was what wound up having the longest lasting impact, if that makes any sense.

Now it seems to be the other way around: the parks are the lure to get you to...see movies that Disney owns? I don't know, it seems flipped to me. Most people already know what Star Wars, Marvel, and the animated films all are, and a trip to the parks isn't likely to get a big time new audience drawn to them, but rather just reinforce the pre-existing audience. One can certainly commodify that pre-existing audience if the fanbase for a given property is large and rabid enough (again, see Wizarding World), and I could easily be wrong about this, but I have a hard time seeing a film like Frozen or Finding Nemo attracting bigger audiences than they already have based on their EPCOT attractions. In other words, the people that are likely to see the movies Disney owns are the people already booking trips to Disney theme parks, so outside of selling certain merchandise at the gift shops (a lot of which is already available at your local mall's Disney Store or online), I don't think you're doing much to grow your prospective audience. So now the unfamiliar is being used in service of the familiar, which already is about as big as it's going to be.

Again, I'm curious to see how well this holds up over time. Do less parents feel enthused about bringing the kids down to Disney because "we already have to watch that DVD too often", maybe because they feel less of a connection to the material that's drawing the kids in (don't forget: there used to be a lot of cross-generational appeal back in the days when Disney would re-release older films into theaters, so kids, parents, and even grandparents often knew about Snow White, Peter Pan, Mr. Toad, Alice, et. al.)? Does the potential loss of consistent theming leave kids less likely to feel that sort of subconscious pull that says "I want to go back to that place" even after they've outgrown some of the stuff they may have liked as grade schoolers? What about kids who aren't lining up to be superheroes/pirates/princesses, a group Disney did used to hold a lot of appeal with? Or does WDI come through and ensure that it works out, and corporate comes through to ensure that the parks aren't just dealing with overlays and no expansion in the actual number of attractions, and we get something stronger? Just so may questions.
 

FigmentJedi

Well-Known Member
I can make the same argument about Guardians of the Galaxy. Sure, those characters were created by Marvel in the 70s, but Groot was no more in the public consciousness prior to 2014 than was The Snow Queen, the fairy tale on which Frozen was based. Granted, there are other arguments to be had against GotG in Epcot, but a blanket-distaste for anything on the premise of "IP is bad" sells the creative achievements of the company in recent years short.
I'd hardly call Frozen a risk or based on The Snow Queen. At best, it draws inspiration and concepts from the Snow Queen, but it has about as much to do with the actual story as the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe did.

It's very simple: Disney makes tons of cash money off of Disney Princess films and selling dolls. So what happens if you made a movie with two princesses to sell dolls of? The film was pretty much redone at the eleventh hour and it shows, but you know what most of those rewriters were based on? Let it Go. Elsa was going to be the film's villain but they liked the song so much they decided to scrap that plot and that's why we got the Hans twist.
 

azox

Well-Known Member
Frozen was less avoidable for me unlike you. Not everything from Frozen was avoidable when I was there in 2014 and 2015. I was there at DHS during The Frozen promotion DHS had in summer of 2014 and 2015. DHS had Summer Frozen Fun in 2014 and you really couldn't avoid it. The fact is the park had Olaf talk on Hollywood BLVD and that was something couldn't avoid if you went to DHS during the summer of 2014. I was there when DHS had their return of Frozen Summer Fun in 2015.

I saw Olaf right away both years. That wasn't avoidable at all unlike the Frozen Sing-a-long. I did like the Frozen Fireworks though. In 2014 DHS had even more Frozen than in 2015 during the time I went. My point is Frozen at DHS wasn't as avoidable as you make sound.

The Frozen-Sing-a-Long isn't a temporary show because its been there since of 2014 despite its located was moved.



Star Wars is the new Frozen. Last trip earlier this year, DHS felt like a giant advertisement for Star Wars.
 

CaptainAmerica

Premium Member
Did you have your eyes shut to avoid the Frozen summer fun promotion in DHS?

Those banners on every lamp post on Sunset really blended in.
There's always a promotion. Awaken Summer, #MonstrousSummer, One More Disney Day, Limited Time Magic, Remember the Magic, Nahtazu... I've been there for all of them and many more. Marketing campaigns don't adversely impact my enjoyment of the parks.
 

doctornick

Well-Known Member
If done correctly, what's proposed could correctly build on what's considered good today whilst removing some past mistakes. The plans are quite big. As is the proposed funding. There's even a chance for an Epcot 3.0

Guardians will still be in the wrong park though. Though I'd still take this over loosing the ToT.

Not that we should have to choose.

I've got to imagine that "removing some past machines" would at least refer to the Leave a Legacy Tombstones being removed (which has already been hinted at); I'm hopeful that it will also mean fixing Imagination to an actual good ride (preferably something with Dreamfinder and Figment).

I do also like the talk we've had about a possible new country. As much as FW gets slammed, I think WS really need some attention too (especially getting some additional rides to balance things out).
 

HMF

Well-Known Member
The problem for us with the 'edutainment' based rides is that they do not present a lot of re-ridability. Honestly, if SSE didn't have AMAZING AAs for the first part of the ride, I doubt I would go on that one very much either.
SSE used to have a lot of re-ridability back before the 2007 refurb with it's painful script, uninspired musical score and complete joke of an ending.
 

HMF

Well-Known Member
I am glad siemens with stay as I love SSE. However, can they fix the horrible historical inaccuracy of Michelangelo lying down? That drives me crazy and I constantly embarrass my DW and DD every time when I yell out "thats not how he painted". :) Right @awheartsdw
The false notion that the Phonecians invented the ABC's, Rome built the first world wide web and that Jewish Teachers and Islamic Scholars were the first backup system are far more historically objectionable.
 

HMF

Well-Known Member
Except there WERE characters back then. Even discounting the space-suited Mickey and crew, there was a Sport Goofy thing over at the Wonders of Life Pavilion, for instance.
There's a difference between the days when characters were used as one part of a larger pavilion to help support the theme. It's another thing for the characters to overtake the pavilion and dilute the theme as you see with The Seas with Nemo & Friends.
 

doctornick

Well-Known Member
The question becomes what are the actual themes of the various parks? Now that IP is taking over all of them and in no apparent manner of theme (GoG in Epcot, Pixar everywhere, etc.) what will the focus really be?

I think this is an interesting and important question. World Showcase will likely remain the same, even if/when more IP get infused to the pavilions. But there's no particular reason that Future World has to retain the same theme -- in fact, it's progressively become less futuristic over the years. Nor does FW has to all remain under the same theme. It's possible to "group" stuff into smaller areas with different themes (like the west side becomes "experience the natural world" or somesuch and the east side side becoming "exploration" -- just shooting from the hip).

Right now, GotG don't fit FW at all, but it doesn't mean that the theme of the area can't change to allow it to meld better.
 

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