News Big changes coming to EPCOT's Future World?

[monothingie]

It also feels like most of WDI has no real knowledge or interest in EPCOT's history and what made the original park exciting...I'm wondering how many of the designers have actually gone to visit EPCOT. Is this the culture in Glendale? Is being close to Disneyland making them assume they know everything about the rest of the parks around the world and what they need? They assume what works for one park will work for all the rest and everything should be the overall same experience?

The guy from WDI who's in charge of the desecration wore a retro Epcot Center T-Shirt at D23 when he announced it. I believe that makes him over qualified in terms of overseeing this atrocity of a project.

 

[PirateFrank]

...Maybe they will build a Groot Journey of Dirt play area leading to Guardians Of The Galaxy to balance it...

I laughed out loud heartily when I read this. Then I paused and got a little concerned you were telling the truth.

Old fixed world boundaries diagram I made (won't let me upload the source image here). Granted Moana doesn't take up that massive of a footprint I gave it, but for general representation it works. Whether or not it's part of the hub depends on what the hub ends up being. By the old footprint, yes it is. But the "hub" is essentially destroyed with it's addition so who knows.

Great to find WDW fans on twitter to fill my feed. Just followed you!

 

[monothingie]

There really seems to be a stunning lack of curiosity across the board for an organization that likes to think of itself as a premiere design house. It's not just Epcot that eludes them, it's anything that's beyond their realm of familiarity, whether that's small details or larger philosophical themes to be incorporated in the spirit of a place.

Too often, they simply take what is familiar and comfortable, and apply that without regard for context. This can mean anything from copying a detail in a way that doesn't really make sense, to designing entire areas without consideration for how it will actually function on a day-to-day basis with real guests, CMs, and weather.

Passport to Dreams has done a great job of highlighting examples of how, over the years, WDI's California-based teams have slowly but surely removed elements unique to MK and replaced them with equivalents from DL, whether they make sense or not. One of the best examples is the Jack Sparrow-era removal of MK's original POTC queue soundtrack and replacement with DL's interior queue music loop. Instead of suspenseful noises of unseen pirates pillaging the fortress that the queue winds through, it's now smooth jazz interpretations of the attraction's memorable song. Not only does this detract from some of the park's most atmospheric place-setting, but the loop is also too short for WDW's significantly longer interior queue, so guests hear it repeat before they even board the ride. It's a downgrade from nearly any perspective, but it got approved because DL's version of the attraction is better, right?

It's the same mindset that brought Toy Story Land to WDW without any protection from the harsh Florida weather. It's why Epcot's abstract nighttime show is getting replaced with one focusing on familiar characters and songs. It's why the statues of Pele and Hina from DL's Tiki Room lanai are plunked down in MK's river, despite having nothing to do with the Clyde and Claude pre-show. If it's not going to make it more like Disneyland Park, it's not worth doing.

Even people I know at WDI who have visited various Disney parks around the world on their own, seem to simply see things and say "Huh, that's different here," without any considerations for the intent behind them. They're all very good at their isolated jobs, but seldom put it into the context of the bigger whole to understand how the various parts relate to one another. They might just as well be designing parts for an automobile, systems for a factory, or buildings for common use, as opposed to anything in a theme park. And these are the "good ones" who actually enjoy the parks in their free time, unlike so many of the decision-makers that oversee the parks who have no particular passion for their product.

Across the board, it seems like there's so much focus on the "what" that WDI often fails to think about "why" they're doing what they're doing. Beyond just copying things from an unrelated park, it also leads to faux-detail ornamentation that ultimately creates architectural nonsense, like WDW's Ratatouille area facades and the Riviera hotel. There's a fundamental lack of intellectual curiosity and understanding about how all the elements of a designed environment relate to one another to further an idea. They're so focused on the small details that they don't step back to think about whether it actually works together. Too often WDI misses the forest for the trees.

It really says a lot that previous generations of Imagineers were able to better at consistently capturing the spirit of a location from an encyclopedia article and a couple old postcards than the current generation is with lavish research expeditions to real-world locations. As an organization, there is far too little emphasis placed on really understanding why elements are included and how they further the design; everything is just superficial ornamentation to them, easily interchangeable with little regard for a larger purpose.

Honestly I think you give WDI too much credit. Truth is they are a shell of what they once were. Over the past 2 decades they have systematically eliminated any talent from their ranks thanks cutbacks. They kept a couple of marque names on for posterity but even those guys have left or are on the way out. Anyone who's left doesn't have the vision or imagination to create what previous imagineers had done. Now it's more about creating the equivalent of big box store projects, nothing special or unique about them. Those projects that do show potential or are unique, are ultimately cut down and gutted from their original vision.

To your last point, I often think that there is sense of arrogance amongst those left in WDI that prevents them from understanding the heritage of where they come from. Previous generations of imagineers were humble in their execution of vision and their resources. Today's imagineers don't understand that.

 

[MisterPenguin]

No! I need more IPs. In fact start cramming them into the perfectly original themed hotels! Give me IPs or give me death!

 

[bcoachable]

Honestly I think you give WDI too much credit. Truth is they are a shell of what they once were. Over the past 2 decades they have systematically eliminated any talent from their ranks thanks cutbacks. They kept a couple of marque names on for posterity but even those guys have left or are on the way out. Anyone who's left doesn't have the vision or imagination to create what previous imagineers had done. Now it's more about creating the equivalent of big box store projects, nothing special or unique about them. Those projects that do show potential or are unique, are ultimately cut down and gutted from their original vision.

To your last point, I often think that there is sense of arrogance amongst those left in WDI that prevents them from understanding the heritage of where they come from. Previous generations of imagineers were humble in their execution of vision and their resources. Today's imagineers don't understand that.

Interesting take, and I don’t completely disagree. I really want to find the positive way forward. As we watch the park(s) being re-designed, where can we find hope for the future?
I agree that having experience on staff is essential to success, and probably the biggest issue at WDI right now. Wondering if the other issues are “young” imagineers just not being capable of creating good designs that take advantage of theme? Or is it a bit of hands being tied due to budget constraints and what is being demanded from above (BARS- we need more bars!)

 

[lazyboy97o]

As an organization, there is far too little emphasis placed on really understanding why elements are included and how they further the design; everything is just superficial ornamentation to them, easily interchangeable with little regard for a larger purpose.

This is why I so dislike the term “theming” as used by both fans and the industry. It reduces the experiential content to a layer that is just slathered on top that can be switched out with anything else and it over emphasizes quantity, as in “this attraction has so much theming.” In the best themed experiences as much as possible everything is an expression of the theme. The Pirates of the Caribbean queue music you mention was theming as it was designed for that experience. This is not just an issue of language but is also how work is now done. The Forrest is now missed because there is over specialization where every tree is it’s own isolated silo.

 

[montyz81]

Interesting take, and I don’t completely disagree. I really want to find the positive way forward. As we watch the park(s) being re-designed, where can we find hope for the future?
I agree that having experience on staff is essential to success, and probably the biggest issue at WDI right now. Wondering if the other issues are “young” imagineers just not being capable of creating good designs that take advantage of theme? Or is it a bit of hands being tied due to budget constraints and what is being demanded from above (BARS- we need more bars!)

Honestly, I think the biggest issue is that today's Imagineers are too far removed from the original WED Imagineers. It is a lot like the telephone game. The foundation of what Imagineering is and is supposed to do has now been watered down to the point that projects lack thoughtful detail. They don't have the coaching needed to achieve genuinely imaginative projects (Guardians, Harmonious as examples). You can't say it is because of cost-cutting, because back in the day, they had many projects that were cut down due to cost but still managed to get out the detail. Add in the fact that there is much more technology today that magnifies Imagineering's laziness.

 

[monothingie]

Interesting take, and I don’t completely disagree. I really want to find the positive way forward. As we watch the park(s) being re-designed, where can we find hope for the future?
I agree that having experience on staff is essential to success, and probably the biggest issue at WDI right now. Wondering if the other issues are “young” imagineers just not being capable of creating good designs that take advantage of theme? Or is it a bit of hands being tied due to budget constraints and what is being demanded from above (BARS- we need more bars!)

Oh I totally agree that executives at TWDC don’t give two blanks about the parks today as opposed to 40 and 50 years ago. But If you want to know about hands being tied, look at the originals who designed WDW. The stuff they came up with, with the financial limitations they had. Even EPCOT with its overruns showed the it could be done.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Honestly, I think the biggest issue is that today's Imagineers are too far removed from the original WED Imagineers. It is a lot like the telephone game. The foundation of what Imagineering is and is supposed to do has now been watered down to the point that projects lack thoughtful detail. They don't have the coaching needed to achieve genuinely imaginative projects (Guardians, Harmonious as examples). You can't say it is because of cost-cutting, because back in the day, they had many projects that were cut down due to cost but still managed to get out the detail. Add in the fact that there is much more technology today that magnifies Imagineering's laziness.

The original Imagineers included some incredibly talented people but let’s not make them out to be prophets. They didn’t hold secret knowledge. These issues have also been growing for years.

 

[monothingie]

The original Imagineers included some incredibly talented people but let’s not make them out to be prophets. They didn’t hold secret knowledge. These issues have also been growing for years.

California Adventure V1

 

[lazyboy97o]

California Adventure V1

Exactly. Barry Braverman joined Walt Disney Imagineering in 1977 when the first generation was there.

 

[monothingie]

Exactly. Barry Braverman joined Walt Disney Imagineering in 1977 when the first generation was there.

Eisner who?

 

[HauntedPirate]

Wait... are you saying that designing a theme park and attractions via spreadsheets is a bad thing?

 

[HauntedPirate]

This is why I so dislike the term “theming” as used by both fans and the industry. It reduces the experiential content to a layer that is just slathered on top that can be switched out with anything else and it over emphasizes quantity, as in “this attraction has so much theming.” In the best themed experiences as much as possible everything is an expression of the theme. The Pirates of the Caribbean queue music you mention was theming as it was designed for that experience. This is not just an issue of language but is also how work is now done. The Forrest is now missed because there is over specialization where every tree is it’s own isolated silo.

This.

One need look no further than Galaxy’s Edge as an example. “So much theming!!!” is what we hear about it so often from the talking heads. It looks nice but looking nice isn’t necessarily a theme.

 

[montyz81]

The original Imagineers included some incredibly talented people but let’s not make them out to be prophets. They didn’t hold secret knowledge. These issues have also been growing for years.

I was generalizing mostly. The problem that I described belongs to any company. I wasn't trying to make them out as profits, but it was more a statement on how the work is done. All company's original employees had to figure most things out, whereas the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generations of employees have had most of the figuring out done for them. That is where some level of laziness sets in. The original Imagineers were by no means the only geniuses in Imagineering. There are several very talented folks in the company today. I feel that they do not get a chance to understand as much about the standards that Walt set out to achieve because they are so far removed. That is where the watering down has happened. In some of the books that I have read, it seems that after Walt died, most of the Imagineers would say, "What would Walt do?". If you look at EPCOT Center, it always felt clear how and why the park was executed, and that original budget got cut multiple times. It's about complacency.

 

[wdwmagic]

Not sure if this has been posted already, but the temporary lighting rig for Spaceship Earth is now in operation with the roof of Innoventions now gone.

 

[montyz81]

Not sure if this has been posted already, but the temporary lighting rig for Spaceship Earth is now in operation with the roof of Innoventions now gone.

View attachment 531029

So sad, but the prisms look great.

 

[EPCOTCenterLover]

Honestly I think you give WDI too much credit. Truth is they are a shell of what they once were. Over the past 2 decades they have systematically eliminated any talent from their ranks thanks cutbacks. They kept a couple of marque names on for posterity but even those guys have left or are on the way out. Anyone who's left doesn't have the vision or imagination to create what previous imagineers had done. Now it's more about creating the equivalent of big box store projects, nothing special or unique about them. Those projects that do show potential or are unique, are ultimately cut down and gutted from their original vision.

To your last point, I often think that there is sense of arrogance amongst those left in WDI that prevents them from understanding the heritage of where they come from. Previous generations of imagineers were humble in their execution of vision and their resources. Today's imagineers don't understand that.

I'm willing to give the new generation of Imagineers a chance, but if their work is best represented by Pixar Pier, they've lost me.

 

[Haymarket2008]

I'm willing to give the new generation of Imagineers a chance, but if their work is best represented by Pixar Pier, they've lost me.

This.

 

[Little Green Men]

I'm willing to give the new generation of Imagineers a chance, but if their work is best represented by Pixar Pier, they've lost me.

Pandora, Carsland, galaxy’s edge?