Beginning Of MK/Epcot/DHS Decline?

[Raineman]

This question is for longtime, regular park visitors. It has been made very clear in this forum that, notwithstanding recent planned additions, WDW in general has not been moving in a positive direction for quite some time, more specifically the decline at Epcot and DHS, as well as some questionable decisions at MK. My question is, when did this start happening? Has the state of Epcot & DHS been a gradual descent, or did it seem to happen quickly? Just curious as to what kind of timeline to put on it, as a gradual decline spread out over many years would seem to point the finger directly at Disney's lack of commitment to WDW.

 

[THEMEPARKPIONEER]

Besides the loss of 2 great Epcot Attractions or at least doe scales I noticed that the parks started to really decline in 2004 and reaching its peak in 2006-2007.

 

[Bairstow]

The easy answer is that after the September 11th attacks, tourism across the board took a major hit, and most parks drastically cut down on new development and slightly cut back on upkeep to weather the storm. Disney may have compensated a little harder than they needed to, and doubled-down on keeping things cheaper after the 2008 recession.

 

[danyoung56]

I guess I'm one of those wackos who doesn't think there's been a decline at all. There's been change, as some attractions close and others open. I wish Disney would make some of these changes quicker than they do. But no, I don't see a decline.

 

[Raineman]

I guess I'm one of those wackos who doesn't think there's been a decline at all. There's been change, as some attractions close and others open. I wish Disney would make some of these changes quicker than they do. But no, I don't see a decline.

The thing that seems to strike me the most, at Epcot in particular, is the under utilization of available/empty indoor space, ie Innoventions, WOL, ImageWorks, the Odyssey building. By decline, I mean more of a decline in keeping all attractions and spaces as fresh and viable as possible, and in general, it doesn't sound like this is being done, especially at Epcot and DHS. I don't think anyone wants to walk through any part of WDW and have it feel like an abandoned amusement park.

 

[BoarderPhreak]

There has been change, definitely positive at places like MK (e.g. new Fantasyland), AK (e.g. Avatarland) and HS (e.g. Star Wars land and Toy Story land). Even Disney Springs is getting a reboot as is the Poly resort. Granted, the pace of this change has ranged from creeping to decent... This is Disney after all.

The one place that's shown a "consistent decline" really, is EC. It's rotting away from a vision of the 21st century to a sad look back at the past. A reboot of Test Track and Maelstrom (err, Frozen) are hardly positives, IMO. A new theater and movie for Soarin' is so-so and really doesn't do anything for me, personally. Innoventions is a ghost town, Future World is laughable... Imagination is a waste of space. Live entertainment took a big hit.

One bright thing to happen at EC in (somewhat) recent memory is the removal of The Wand from SSE.

 

[Phonedave]

Around 2003 or 2004 I would say. That is when I started to notice that WDW was not quite the "special" place it used to be.

To explain: I first went to WDW when I was in High School in 1985 (maybe, somwhere around there) and did not go again until 1998, when my then wife forced me to go.She wanted to go, we had our fisrt daughter and she wanted us all to go. I rememberd it from the 80's as being nice, but nothing thrilling. We had just put a large addition on our house, had lots of bills, and WDW was EXPENSIVE - I really throught a cheaper vacation would be better. I was at WDW for about all of 3 hours before my attitude changed. It was WORTH the money. The attention to detail, the level of service, the themeing, the state of the attractions, the quality of the shows - it was expensive, but it was worth the cost. Needless to say, we went back, a lot.

By 2004 I was hooked but I began to notice the little details that made WDW worth the expense were not there. I still go back, because the place holds memories for me, and that is what makes it worth it now - the nostalgia. However with the way pricing is starting to go, it is getting harder and harder to justify it even with the nostalgia factor.

I really think that if I had started going to WDW as an adult in 2004 instead of 1998, I would not be as big a fan, nor a repeat customer as I am now.

I don't want super new attractions. I want old attractions maintained, I want landscaping maintained. I don't want to be nickled and dimed at every turn, I want to be able to get into a restaruant sometime before 180 days out, I want little suprise encouters (like the sword in the stone, or Alice riding the Teacups) That is the sort of thing that has been going away.

-dave

 

[DarthVader]

Epcot is definitly showing its age and needs some love from Disney, but I won't go so far as to say WDW is in decline.

I think the recent upgrades in MK, so show that. They're expending a lot of resources to improve AK and HS, so clearly they're doing a lot. There's only so much they can do at any given time and since they have major developments in two parks, the other parks have to wait.

 

[MrHappy]

Everything is cyclical. There's peaks and valleys and I think WDW had a high point in the early 90s then as pointed out hit a low in the early 2000s. 9/11, recession, budget allocation and top talent looking globally (Disney Sea, Shanghai, ect) probably all contributed to the swoon at WDW. Seems like there's an upward trend again and will hit a new peak in early 2020's (starting with Avatar.....well already started with Springs, Poly, and a few others). Also, by reading these forums (http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/the-spirited-11th-hour.909031/) new leadership should keep/improve on the current trajectory.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

The EPCOTalypse mainly occurred in 1994-2004. :'(

DHS and MK declined more gradually. DHS is probably at its lowest point ever now. The MK has blissfully withstood change the best of all parks. It reminds me of that famous picture of St. Paul's alone standing miraculously aloof of the nearby ravage of the Blitz.

DAK is probably better now than it ever was.

 

[Goofyernmost]

I guess I'm one of those wackos who doesn't think there's been a decline at all. There's been change, as some attractions close and others open. I wish Disney would make some of these changes quicker than they do. But no, I don't see a decline.

I do not see the massive decline either. I do see that DHS took a less then wonderful turn after they closed the studio and did very little to fix that, I guess relying on ToT and RnRC to take up the slack. Epcot did close a couple of attractions without replacing them, but, certainly not to the degree that DHS did. That place got really sad.

Part of the problem with DHS was reputation. Actually since it's opening it has been viewed as a half day park and didn't really acquire the need for more until recently. That, I feel, came about because MK was getting swamped and, to a much lesser degree, they were making Uni look better then Disney.

Epcot basically just changed most of the attractions in Futureworld, some for the better, some not so good, but, the area that they completely ignored since 1982 was World Showcase. The problem is that so many of the former Epcot lovers have never really been able to grasp the idea that things change. Everything that shows up is automatically considered a decline because it doesn't conform to the way they think it should be. However, that is mostly the sentiment of the people that tend to be attracted to this type of media that focuses on "all Disney, all the time".

Anyone with a supply of old pictures or a memory can easily see that in spite of Entitled Guests that have no concern over the property of others, it looks so much better then it did before. There are more flowers, brighter colors, more eye appeal then ever, but, again, so many focus on the removal of trees. That trimming back and removal has happened since the place opened, but, no one really noticed until recently. What that has done, in the positive sense, is opened the view up and not hide them like in a jungle. What is the purpose of building a beautiful fake castle and then hiding it from view?

So, to me, you are correct, there have been many changes, but, I have yet to see the decline and just a simple look at attendance backs that up. What I did see is a decade of little growth, but, that's known as stayed the same, not decline. It shouldn't have happened and now there are construction walls everywhere. The future looks like it might be interesting though. At 68 years old, I just hope I'm still around to witness the new Disney.

 

[mouse_luv]

 

[Zipadeelady]

This question is for longtime, regular park visitors. It has been made very clear in this forum that, notwithstanding recent planned additions, WDW in general has not been moving in a positive direction for quite some time, more specifically the decline at Epcot and DHS, as well as some questionable decisions at MK. My question is, when did this start happening? Has the state of Epcot & DHS been a gradual descent, or did it seem to happen quickly? Just curious as to what kind of timeline to put on it, as a gradual decline spread out over many years would seem to point the finger directly at Disney's lack of commitment to WDW.

Like @danyoung56 I've never seen this decline either. Our first trip wasn't until 2006 so everything seems spectacular to me. I will admit that the Innovation buildings in Epcot seem like a waste as our family walks in and walks back out. I think we were in there and saw a firetruck in 2006, then to play the Kim possible game in 2010 and lastly Sum of All Fears in 2013. It seems they could do so much in there. As for DHS we've never seen it with more than what it has. When the kids were younger it was a great park but now that their older it only has a few things that they enjoy so I'm so happy for what they are planning.

I must say it is nice to hear the opinions of others on here and letting me see why the think there has been such a decline with out them getting upset and telling me my eyes are covered in pixie dust because I just don't see the decline that they do.

 

[raven]

Didn't 2004 see the additions of Soarin and LMA?

If that's the case,I think the decline happened after that. I was in WDW the first day the airports opened after 9/11 and the Millenium Celebration was still going on. The next couple of years were great too (100 Years of Magic, etc) but after they did away with the celebration themes it started to take a dive.

 

[raven]

Didn't 2004 see the additions of Soarin and LMA?

If that's the case,I think the decline happened after that. I was in WDW the first day the airports opened after 9/11 and the Millenium Celebration was still going on. The next couple of years were great too (100 Years of Magic, etc) but after they did away with the celebration themes it started to take a dive.

2005. My bad.

 

[LuvtheGoof]

I guess I'm one of those wackos who doesn't think there's been a decline at all. There's been change, as some attractions close and others open. I wish Disney would make some of these changes quicker than they do. But no, I don't see a decline.

I am one of those wackos as well. We just don't see the decline, and before y'all jump on me, just know that I've been going there since 1978 (at the age of 20) and used to be a local for several years. I am not an avid pixie duster, and do not agree with everything they have done in the parks, but I still don't see a decline. People talk about the "old" days before FP and FP+. What I remember is 2 hour waits for Space Mountain with no FP at all in the early nineties.

 

[epeterson]

I unfortunately have to agree with the poster. Disney World in general seems to have not improved since 2005/2006, and in many ways has declined. Having been multiple times, Disney World has really lost its magic. It now seems as though management only cares about extracting as much money out of the park goers while giving them as little value as possible. Just look at the next Disney movie Moana, it was chosen to sell their Ala Moana hotel in Hawaii, even though a Disney Hawaii movie already exists. Disney doesn't do anything anymore unless it improves their bottom line, customers be damned. The joke my father used to make was how Mickey wore white gloves so as to be ready to take your money at any time, now that I am older I realize thats all Disney cares about, taking my money.

I go to the park every couple of years, but the last time (about two years ago) I noticed just how behind Disney is compared to other parks around the country. I remember being so bored at Magic Kingdom I left at 2 pm (I got there at 10 am). I remember being at Hollywood Studios and being actively annoyed about how there was nothing to do, I left in about 3 hours. I paid $100's+ to get into parks that seem to be essentially 50% gift shops.

Also during my last trip I went over to Universal Studios... I was blown away by how much better of a park those are. So many interesting rides, activities, and amazing restaurants. Harry Potter World is better than any Disney land anywhere (with only Tokyo DisneySea competing). It took me 3 days to explore the parks as much as I wanted, while at Disney World I don't spend a full day in any park.

The wife and I are planning kids in the near future, and we have agreed to not spend $1000's taking them to Disney World, but instead to Universal Studios (when they are a bit older). We just don't see any value in the parks anymore. Disney needs to stop resting on nostalgia and actually put some interesting rides in their parks. When Avatar and Star Wars land are finished I might revisit the idea of going to Disney World... but up until then I see no reason to go.

I am REALLY hoping that Universal Studios comes even harder, and after the Volcano Bay water park is built, builds a third gate to open by 2021... which is also coincidentally Disney's 50th anniversary. This would hopefully actually push Disney into trying, and we could see some new amazing things. And if they don't actually start trying, then I hope they decline. For now my money is at Universal. I am already planning on going after Volcano Bay is built, and will probably stay on property. It will also be my first time ever going to Orlando without going to Disney World.

 

[epeterson]

Around 2003 or 2004 I would say. That is when I started to notice that WDW was not quite the "special" place it used to be.

To explain: I first went to WDW when I was in High School in 1985 (maybe, somwhere around there) and did not go again until 1998, when my then wife forced me to go.She wanted to go, we had our fisrt daughter and she wanted us all to go. I rememberd it from the 80's as being nice, but nothing thrilling. We had just put a large addition on our house, had lots of bills, and WDW was EXPENSIVE - I really throught a cheaper vacation would be better. I was at WDW for about all of 3 hours before my attitude changed. It was WORTH the money. The attention to detail, the level of service, the themeing, the state of the attractions, the quality of the shows - it was expensive, but it was worth the cost. Needless to say, we went back, a lot.

By 2004 I was hooked but I began to notice the little details that made WDW worth the expense were not there. I still go back, because the place holds memories for me, and that is what makes it worth it now - the nostalgia. However with the way pricing is starting to go, it is getting harder and harder to justify it even with the nostalgia factor.

I really think that if I had started going to WDW as an adult in 2004 instead of 1998, I would not be as big a fan, nor a repeat customer as I am now.

I don't want super new attractions. I want old attractions maintained, I want landscaping maintained. I don't want to be nickled and dimed at every turn, I want to be able to get into a restaruant sometime before 180 days out, I want little suprise encouters (like the sword in the stone, or Alice riding the Teacups) That is the sort of thing that has been going away.

-dave

Sorry to post again, but I have to say the restaurant thing annoyed the hell out of me last time I was at Disney World. I went in the off season, and the parks were busy but not super busy, and I couldn't get a single reservation at any restaurant. Even trying to make reservations 1-2 days beforehand everything would be booked. I ate at just quick serve meal places while I was in the parks and would leave Disney to go get dinner almost every night. The dining at Harry Potter Land as well as Mythos at Universal Studios was great and only had about 15-20 minute waits. I don't want to compete with people planning their "vacations" 60 days out. Build enough restaurants to satisfy demand. Restaurants pay for themselves, it shouldn't take as much time to approve them as it does a ride.

 

[danyoung56]

I'm going to say something here that a lot of folks won't agree with, but it's my opinion. I've seen many posts over the years from people who say that WDW (or DL) just doesn't have the magic that it used to. Usually these people have visited many times over many years, or maybe they visited when they were a bright-eyed kid and now they're jaded adults. It's my opinion that it's not the Disney parks that have declined - it's the fact that people have been one too many times and are approaching burnout (which can happen with any vacation destination). The problems that people attribute to modern day Disney have pretty much always been there - they just didn't notice them till recently. True, there are plenty of things that Disney could do better. But for me the "magic" is still there - it's all in how you choose to perceive the place.



Let the flames begin!

 

[epeterson]

I'm going to say something here that a lot of folks won't agree with, but it's my opinion. I've seen many posts over the years from people who say that WDW (or DL) just doesn't have the magic that it used to. Usually these people have visited many times over many years, or maybe they visited when they were a bright-eyed kid and now they're jaded adults. It's my opinion that it's not the Disney parks that have declined - it's the fact that people have been one too many times and are approaching burnout (which can happen with any vacation destination). The problems that people attribute to modern day Disney have pretty much always been there - they just didn't notice them till recently. True, there are plenty of things that Disney could do better. But for me the "magic" is still there - it's all in how you choose to perceive the place.



Let the flames begin!

While I think the burnout/getting older thing is true, its rather undeniable though that Disney has been resting on nostalgia for over a decade now. Every other big theme park in the US has to improve and change to keep its customer base, except Disney which everybody just accepts because its Disney World and its suppose to be the most magical place on earth. I remember going to Universal Studios in the late 90's, and the park has improved and changed considerably since then. I can't think of a single thing Disney has done that's excited me since 1998/1999 with the opening of DAK. If any other park in America had not improved in any noticeable fashion for 18 years, the park would be fading into obscurity by now.