Matt_Black
Well-Known Member
If you go to any Avengers film expecting anything less than big "Four color" style superheroics, then maybe an Avengers movie isn't for you.
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Avengers: Age of Ultron
- Thread starter AllyInWonderland
- Start date
NMBC1993
Well-Known Member
Your right and I'm starting to see that. I'll tell you the truth, my personal problems with The Avengers films stem from two things. First of all I understand the original Marvel comic books had a lighter feel and silliness to them, but that doesn't mean someone couldn't take these characters and create something meaningful out of it. In my mind the MCU could be an onion, with many layers that that twist and turn, filling the audience with all sorts of emotions. Instead the MCU and more importantly the Avengers series feels more like a rice cracker. It's flat, one-dimensional, and you have to eat several before you can get a "fill" of them.
To me, if Micheal Bay knew how to write better dialog, and took out all his "sexual tastes" from the film, The Avengers series and Transformers series would fell like one in the same...just replace robots blowing stuff up with superheroes. It's all just "turn off your brain" summer popcorn fluff and I personally expect more from it, especially with a universe involved with such a rich history. I understand we live in a world where studios are motivated by greed, it's unfortunate but that's how it works. They don't take into consideration "Hey, maybe we should create a film that both entertains and makes people think?" I'm not talking about some super (no pun intended) intellectual film or anything, but can we stretch it a bit farther than explosions and dialog you would find on That 70's Show? Again just because the source material was silly, doesn't mean the entire cinematic series has to be. As my friend told me the other day after watching the latest AoU trailer "Ugh, if I hear one more villain doing a monolog about destroying the earth..." and personally, I feel he has a point. How many more films do we have to sit through where the villain goes on and on about world domination, only to be easily defeated by the heroes? Why can't we have someone like Darth Vader? Sure he went on an on about the rebels and "the dark side is stronger" but throughout the series we learned more about him and his relation to Luke (in a way that NO ONE was expecting). Where are those characters in the MCU?
With that being said, my other problem with the series is something I can't help. When I see something like this...
my mind immediately starts racing, thinking of all the most amazing things that could happen in a film that A. I never directed and B. am waiting with anticipation to be released. So in the span of the 8 months or so that it takes for a film to come out, I've already got in my head what the entire film should be like. For example, when I saw that shot of the Hulk catching Iron Man, I thought Oh, how cool would it be if in an earlier battle against the villains, The Hulk (hulks out) on the actual Avengers halfway through the fight and after almost destroying them all (and I mean ALL of them, not just Thor), is not seen again for the rest of the film because of Banner's fear of that happening again. Then during the final battle, as the Avengers are getting their tushies handed to them, Iron Man falls from the sky and who shows up out of no where to help him? The Hulk. How shocking and thrilling would it be for the audience if you assumed Hulk was a no show but in reality Banner concurred his demons to help the world and his friends. Then you see Hulk standing there looking at everyone and proudly shouts "Hulk..Help". But instead we get the throwaway line of "I'm always angry..." because we wouldn't any of the heroes to actually "work for it" or anything.
Like I said, this is just a personal problem I can't help. Funny enough, the same thing happened the other day when I heard they hired a new director for the Power Rangers movie re-boot. A few hours later I thought to myself "Holy cow, why is Saban trying to milk money out of younger kids who already have their own newer Ranger franchises to watch?" What he needs to do is strike a deal with Netflix (considering they already have a sort of agreement) and create a mini-series featuring all the older ranger teams coming together in an Agents of Shield/Arrow sort of way. Once they bring in all these members, you could have a different episode of different teams, going on different missions but the overall series is presented in a more mature manner considering all the fans of the older series are in their 20s-30s now (and no I'm not saying they should make it dark and gritty like the Power/Rangers short film that came out recently). They need to create their own universe because believe it or not, Power Rangers has just as much involved with it as the MCU does. They have different alien races (the Aquitian, the citizens of Triforia, etc.), androids, regular humans, heroes from the future, etc. There's a lot to play with, again this is my mind set involving things I enjoy...including Marvel.
Anyway, I hope you survived my entirely too long ramblings, but I hope it explains my frustration with the MCU and Hollywood in general. I know I am one person out of the billions that pay to see these films, and to them they don't want a "deeper experience". So I guess just like WDW phasing me out of what they want to achieve, aka they'd rather have first time visitors/foreign guests who don't question what the company is doing. Marvel and summer films are phasing me out of their demographic because in the words of Ariel "I want moreeee....."
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Matt_Black
Well-Known Member
Wait, wait, wait. Something can't be both light-hearted and meaningful? That's incredibly dismissive and borderline snobbish.
erasure fan1
Well-Known Member
I really don't see the MCU as "turn off your brain". Yea it isn't shawshank but I don't think it needs to be. I really just don't see what the people at Marvel are doing is out of greed. I see it as they are taking great care in making this universe and making sure it is worthy of the source material. And because of that, the money is coming. Its funny because it is very opposite of what Disney is doing now in my opinion. The parks are raking it in with close to ZERO effort and just relying on their name alone. Yea is there a healthy dose of popcorn flick in them? Yea, but I like that.
Matt_Black
Well-Known Member
They are popcorn flicks in the same way that Raiders of the Lost Ark was a popcorn flick. They are incredibly well-made popcorn flicks.
Disneyfanman
Well-Known Member
Did I just read that Michael Bay writes better dialog than Joss Whedon? I must be in another reality. Avengers and Transformers similar in quality?
I go home now.
I go home now.
With buttery topping.
NMBC1993
Well-Known Member
No, you misread actually. I was suggesting that if Micheal Bay's writing ability was on the same level as Whedon, and if Micheal Bay removed all of his "Bay-isms" such as racism, sexual exploitation, and product placement that Transformers and The Avengers would seem very similar. Just super powered beings defeating name-less CG henchmen and villains while poking fun about it the whole time with no real consequences.
NMBC1993
Well-Known Member
You are correct, "out of greed" and "turn off your brain" is pushing a bit too far when it comes to Marvel. I suppose I was referring more to Hollywood summer films in general. I just read an article about a Joe Dirt 2, seriously. In the case of Marvel I see their recent trend being more...repetitive laziness? Or rather they achieved a level of recognition, respect, and love that they are now taking it easy for a bit. There's no real need to push the boundaries, give it that extra notch above your average popcorn flick. Give the audience a reason to care about our heroes. A character dies in our film? That's fine, he's just going to come back with his own television series next year.
Now with that being said, the entire MCU is not without it's merit. There has been some amazing films in the beginning. Iron man 1 is a solid superhero film, and RDJ knocked it out of the park. Now maybe it was because the movie was an origin story that they put so much depth into the character (that and Favreau was a huge fan) but you really feel for Tony Stark, his shadowy past in the world of firearms and his redemption in life. That's what I'm referring to when I talk about character development. Erik Selvig is a brilliant scientist who helps guide Jane, Darcy, and Thor towards victory and how do we develop his character? By having him run around naked on television...twice. Do you see the difference? It just seems like comedy and wit have taken priority over plot development and character advancements. If that's the case, can they at least try hard enough to cover up their plot holes?
Pixar films are a great example of something that even though is geared towards a entire family, they are not afraid to touch on some delicate subjects. That opening scene in Up!, talk about catching the viewer off-guard. This coming from an "animated cartoon for children" as some would put it.
So in a way I believe Marvel is coasting on the name to an extent, but nothing extreme. I just wonder if in 10 years will Marvel films still seem as impacting? Not to say there won't be a market for them, but will it still mean the same when the team is attempting to stop bad-guy number 87 from unleashing his cunning attempt to enslave the planet?....or worse the universe!!??
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erasure fan1
Well-Known Member
Well Joe dirt 2 is a made for crackle movie so that should explain that. I get what you are saying and I do see your point with Selvig that was weak. But the conflict with Loki and Thor was really good I thought. I don't think stopping bad guy number 87 will really matter, that's what has been going on in comics since the beginning. Bad guy comes, tries to destroy planet, city, universe.... superheros foil said plan, lather, rinse, repeat.
NMBC1993
Well-Known Member
Very true, so could we at least get better villains? In my opinion, we've really only had a few quality villains. Jeff Bridges in IM1, Loki, and The Winter Solider (whoops, almost forgot Red Skull). If the rest weren't so lackluster, I might be able to look past all the banter and wit, but when the enemy comes off as generic it almost seems as if the heroes are mocking them for being too bland.
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doctornick
Well-Known Member
I would argue that the last two Marvel movies -- CA:TWS and GotG -- pushed the boundary quite a bit about what a comic book movie is. They were pretty different from previous MCU fare were far from "lazy" or "taking it easy" IMHO.
CaptainAmerica
Premium Member
Your right and I'm starting to see that. I'll tell you the truth, my personal problems with The Avengers films stem from two things. First of all I understand the original Marvel comic books had a lighter feel and silliness to them, but that doesn't mean someone couldn't take these characters and create something meaningful out of it. In my mind the MCU could be an onion, with many layers that that twist and turn, filling the audience with all sorts of emotions. Instead the MCU and more importantly the Avengers series feels more like a rice cracker. It's flat, one-dimensional, and you have to eat several before you can get a "fill" of them.
To me, if Micheal Bay knew how to write better dialog, and took out all his "sexual tastes" from the film, The Avengers series and Transformers series would fell like one in the same...just replace robots blowing stuff up with superheroes. It's all just "turn off your brain" summer popcorn fluff and I personally expect more from it, especially with a universe involved with such a rich history. I understand we live in a world where studios are motivated by greed, it's unfortunate but that's how it works. They don't take into consideration "Hey, maybe we should create a film that both entertains and makes people think?" I'm not talking about some super (no pun intended) intellectual film or anything, but can we stretch it a bit farther than explosions and dialog you would find on That 70's Show? Again just because the source material was silly, doesn't mean the entire cinematic series has to be. As my friend told me the other day after watching the latest AoU trailer "Ugh, if I hear one more villain doing a monolog about destroying the earth..." and personally, I feel he has a point. How many more films do we have to sit through where the villain goes on and on about world domination, only to be easily defeated by the heroes? Why can't we have someone like Darth Vader? Sure he went on an on about the rebels and "the dark side is stronger" but throughout the series we learned more about him and his relation to Luke (in a way that NO ONE was expecting). Where are those characters in the MCU?
With that being said, my other problem with the series is something I can't help. When I see something like this...
my mind immediately starts racing, thinking of all the most amazing things that could happen in a film that A. I never directed and B. am waiting with anticipation to be released. So in the span of the 8 months or so that it takes for a film to come out, I've already got in my head what the entire film should be like. For example, when I saw that shot of the Hulk catching Iron Man, I thought Oh, how cool would it be if in an earlier battle against the villains, The Hulk (hulks out) on the actual Avengers halfway through the fight and after almost destroying them all (and I mean ALL of them, not just Thor), is not seen again for the rest of the film because of Banner's fear of that happening again. Then during the final battle, as the Avengers are getting their tushies handed to them, Iron Man falls from the sky and who shows up out of no where to help him? The Hulk. How shocking and thrilling would it be for the audience if you assumed Hulk was a no show but in reality Banner concurred his demons to help the world and his friends. Then you see Hulk standing there looking at everyone and proudly shouts "Hulk..Help". But instead we get the throwaway line of "I'm always angry..." because we wouldn't any of the heroes to actually "work for it" or anything.
Like I said, this is just a personal problem I can't help. Funny enough, the same thing happened the other day when I heard they hired a new director for the Power Rangers movie re-boot. A few hours later I thought to myself "Holy cow, why is Saban trying to milk money out of younger kids who already have their own newer Ranger franchises to watch?" What he needs to do is strike a deal with Netflix (considering they already have a sort of agreement) and create a mini-series featuring all the older ranger teams coming together in an Agents of Shield/Arrow sort of way. Once they bring in all these members, you could have a different episode of different teams, going on different missions but the overall series is presented in a more mature manner considering all the fans of the older series are in their 20s-30s now (and no I'm not saying they should make it dark and gritty like the Power/Rangers short film that came out recently). They need to create their own universe because believe it or not, Power Rangers has just as much involved with it as the MCU does. They have different alien races (the Aquitian, the citizens of Triforia, etc.), androids, regular humans, heroes from the future, etc. There's a lot to play with, again this is my mind set involving things I enjoy...including Marvel.
Anyway, I hope you survived my entirely too long ramblings, but I hope it explains my frustration with the MCU and Hollywood in general. I know I am one person out of the billions that pay to see these films, and to them they don't want a "deeper experience". So I guess just like WDW phasing me out of what they want to achieve, aka they'd rather have first time visitors/foreign guests who don't question what the company is doing. Marvel and summer films are phasing me out of their demographic because in the words of Ariel "I want moreeee....."
TL;DR
Boo this man.
Matt_Black
Well-Known Member
Indeed, someone on another board pointed out that it's a great time to be a fan not because there's a wide amount of superhero/ comic-book TV shows and movies, it's a great time because of the variety of superhero/ comic-book TV shows and movies.
And anyway, Marvel IS going to push things. Ant-Man with both the power set and the fact that the character might be tied with Aquaman as far as being jokes. Dr. Strange will be Marvel's first foray into flat-out supernatural shenanigans.
NMBC1993
Well-Known Member
Well that's a great way to see someone's point of view..."You took too long and I'm too lazy to read someone's thoughts who might actually have valid criticism, so any argument you have is invalid".
Sorry for going into details with my beliefs. I guess I'll just communicate on the same level of wit as The Avengers...
"You humans are so petty...and tiny" (insert shocked audience track). There? Is that more to your liking?
doctornick
Well-Known Member
Here's the thing. You have a perfectly valid point of view and I can understand the need to vent about things one does not like. That said, at this point, I think you need to accept that the MCU just might not be your cup of tea and move on. It's very obvious that the general public does not agree with your view on how the movies are executed considering the revenue the films generate as well as the very positive reviews/ratings they get.
Personally, I find your concerns laughable because the humr of the MCU is IMHO one of the main reasons it is successful -- and it's been impressive how they have been able to synthesize the humor together with the action/character development/plot so seamlessly. They've effectively taken the elements that make comic books themselves so engaging and translated them to film without compromising the source material.
But anyway, I just don't see the point in your constantly bringing it up. You don't like the MCU movies and Wheldon in particular. OK. Why wouldn't you just ignore the movies then rather complaining about how they aren't what you want? I mean, I think Gotham is terrible but the show seems to be doing well in the ratings; but rather than going around posting the ways in which I think the show should be changed to make it better, I simply stopped watching and now ignore it. I recommend you do the same for the MCU films if you were so disappointed in The Avengers.
NMBC1993
Well-Known Member
You actually have my full support regarding CA:TWS. After sitting though The Avengers, Iron Man 3, and Thor 2, I had written Marvel off. Thinking all they do now is input tons of needless banter into their film, create a lackluster villain (or in the case of Iron Man 3, create a BA villain and proceed to use that as yet another joke) and finish things off with no real sense of "expanding the plot of Phase 2". That's what I mean when I say Marvel got to a point then started to take it easy.
Then came along TWS. Holy cow! Now that's how you make a movie. The villain did not waste time spouting off jokes, he had an emotional back story, and was all around cool as heck. He seemed like an actual threat when compared to the other recent villain, compiled of yet another rival scientist or an evil overlord that is "all powerful" only to be defeated by two interns carrying tripods. Yes, TWS also had banter in it, but the film knew when to stop doing that, when it was time to take something serious. It turned the world Steve Roger's knew on it's head, revealing that the good guys are not always good. That's what I want to see in a Marvel film, again give me a reason to care what happens to the heroes, because when they are running around, spouting off one-liners I personally get the sense of "Why should I worry about their safety? They don't seem to care, they're cracking jokes about it".
Now regarding GotG, I will say that the film had a few things going for it. The soundtrack was amazing and the new characters were memorable, other than that I personally didn't see anything that was a step above something like Avengers....definitely not as impacting as TWS. The villain was almost a copy and paste of Malekith from Thor 2. They did try to insert one or two bits of drama, but almost immediately went back to the wacky antics. Finally, the film also did not progress the plot of Phase 2 other than Thanos still sitting in his chair, reminding the audience that his time will come....at some point. Like I said, if it wasn't for the soundtrack and the characters being so lovable, the film would have felt like any other sci-fi epic. Again that is my own opinion.
NMBC1993
Well-Known Member
First off I want to thank you submitting your post, there was a lot of honestly behind it. To be fair I suppose my frustrations behind the MCU stem from the fact that I did not always feel this way. Back in 2008 I found Iron Man 1 mind-blowing, same with The Incredible Hulk, and CA:TFA. They represented, to me what everyone else sees a Marvel film as. I guess what drives my frustration so much is that I know Marvel, Pixar, all these companies are capable of pushing the envelope (they showed they can with films like TWS), and it aggravates me that they are complacent in just being the summer movie popcorn flick (it's like a father looking at his son wasting his life instead of working towards bettering it). Yes, humor is a great tool, comedies are my personal favorite genre but how come there are no "best comedy" categories at the Oscars? Because the "academy" does not consider them to be quality films. Maybe I'm just that one guy who wants Marvel to be recognized by the people who mock them, to put out a film where even they can not have criticisms towards it. "Oh, it's just muscular heroes in bright costumes", and in all honesty, yeah when you have heroes running around spouting off banter with no real impact on anything, those people have a point.
But anyway, I understand no one around here shares my feelings. I was just hoping that if I continued to speak up and show the world that maybe films like The Avengers are not the "ultimate definition of what a superhero movie could be" that maybe there would be the one other person who came around and realized there could be so much more to this expanded universe.
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CaptainAmerica
Premium Member
Very sensitive, eh? I didn't expect my post with the pithy and sarcastic "boo this man" to be taken so seriously.
NMBC1993
Well-Known Member
Well not so much your "boo this man" comment as much as the not taking the time to actually read someone's comments. It made me think of one of these teenage Marvel fanboys who say "Well, you don't like what we like and I never actually read your argument, but I disagree with everything because I said so".