Attendance drop in the parks... I wonder why

[Otterhead]

Oh, the poor victims. Whatever.

No, I mean people in big cities who have to pay for increasingly expensive housing, insurance, and the cost of living, who struggle to find well-paying jobs and would find a Disney vacation to be an unaffordable luxury. Those people exist, believe it or not. But feel free to mock them if it makes you feel better.

I have absolutely zero pity for them

You've revealed yourself to be a truly pitiful person who laughs at those with less than yourself. I will be ignoring you.

 

[Ralphlaw]

Snow White was probably the least ridden ride at MK. In ten trips, I rode it once. People apparently wanted more characters, and that space seems to be succeeding in that iteration.

Wof L closed due to lack of sponsorship and lack of interest; the Unofficial Guide from the years prior certainly did not rate it a must see. It's been closed for roughly 30% of the age of the park, which was also about the time Mission Space and Soarin' opened. I also forgot that Epcot also took some relatively bland and underused space to fill it with Nemo stuff. Not my favorite thing, but still a popular reuse of an underused space for people with littler kids. It also has educational aspects in the after areas, along with Crush, which I think are very welcome additions. Also, they reopened the after stuff at Spaceship Earth a few years back as well. Now, if only Innoventions would become worthwhile again.

At Studios, the back streets were essentially filler left over from the era of actual filming at Studios. Pretty worthless other than when the Osborne Spectacle was put up. LMT, I'll miss it, but it's being replaced with something that is predicted to be more popular. The Backlot tour for most people was a relatively slow once and done.

To take your comparison, if you entertain in your home a lot, and your new bathroom is now able to "serve" more people somehow, I would consider that an expansion. If you do not believe that adding a third bay to Soarin' is an expansion, then we have no logical common ground for communication. A hugely popular attraction that increases capacity by 50% is an expansion under any definition. Making an underused space popular again is also an expansion in my book. If more people spend time there doing things they want to do, I think most people would concede that that is an expansion. To get a full answer, we would probably also have to look at what all was open in 1981, check the capacities, and compare to the additions since. I would love to do that, but I have real work to do at my job right now.

 

[Chef Mickey]

No, I mean people in big cities who have to pay for increasingly expensive housing, insurance, and the cost of living, who struggle to find well-paying jobs and would find a Disney vacation to be an unaffordable luxury. Those people exist, believe it or not. But feel free to mock them if it makes you feel better.


You've revealed yourself to be a truly pitiful person who laughs at those with less than yourself. I will be ignoring you.

Go ahead...I don't respect people who don't deserve respect.

BTW, rising home values BENEFIT the people who own the homes too. Forget that part? I love that my home has and rental property have gone up in value.

You know what other kind of people exist? Everyone else who lives in third world countries with no hope to get out. I literally have zero sympathy for anyone with sound mind and no disability struggling in America. Have you traveled outside of America's bubble?

 

[xdan0920]

Go ahead...I don't respect people who don't deserve respect.

BTW, rising home values BENEFIT the people who own the homes too. Forget that part? I love that my home has and rental property have gone up in value.

You know what other kind of people exist? Everyone else who lives in third world countries with no hope to get out. I literally have zero sympathy for anyone with sound mind and no disability struggling in America. Have you traveled outside of America's bubble?

I know you are a "private person"...

I find myself wondering though, how old are you? What area of the country do you live in? You seem quite narrow minded, and I figure knowing your age and location may help me to better understand your point of view.

 

[snek]

You mean the chips, Coke, and other prepackaged (expensive) items people buy every week?

Everything you say about this point is invalidated if you don't even realize fresh, healthy food is more expensive than prepackaged and "junk" food. People get into cycles that are very hard to break, but you're obviously very privileged and will never take the time to understand their mindset and situation.

 

[drizgirl]

My arguments are old and tired, but they are somewhere in the realm of right on point.

So you agree with your own points? I sure hope so.

I try to only post things I agree with as well.

 

[Ralphlaw]

Calm down everyone. Some people are poor because of bad decisions, laziness, lack of discipline, etc . . . But many are also the victims of bad luck, tough genetics, learning disabilities, and lack of support. My office has 3 employees with "issues" that have sidetracked them. ADHD and two premarital children resulting from teenage hormones more than anything else. They're doing the best they can, but no doubt they have been hampered over the years. I was saddled with a pretty good brain, a supportive family, and grabbing whatever luck came my way. I made minimal catastrophic mistakes' but much of that was luck, not brilliance on my part.

Lumping all less-asseted Americans with such a broad brush is way over-simplistic. With that being said, many poorer people make financial/personal mistakes that are hard to sympathize with. Either way, they may be priced out of Disney, and thus is the world turning.

 

[RobidaFlats]

Snow White was probably the least ridden ride at MK. In ten trips, I rode it once. People apparently wanted more characters, and that space seems to be succeeding in that iteration.

Wof L closed due to lack of sponsorship and lack of interest; the Unofficial Guide from the years prior certainly did not rate it a must see. It's been closed for roughly 30% of the age of the park, which was also about the time Mission Space and Soarin' opened. I also forgot that Epcot also took some relatively bland and underused space to fill it with Nemo stuff. Not my favorite thing, but still a popular reuse of an underused space for people with littler kids. It also has educational aspects in the after areas, along with Crush, which I think are very welcome additions. Also, they reopened the after stuff at Spaceship Earth a few years back as well. Now, if only Innoventions would become worthwhile again.

At Studios, the back streets were essentially filler left over from the era of actual filming at Studios. Pretty worthless other than when the Osborne Spectacle was put up. LMT, I'll miss it, but it's being replaced with something that is predicted to be more popular. The Backlot tour for most people was a relatively slow once and done.

To take your comparison, if you entertain in your home a lot, and your new bathroom is now able to "serve" more people somehow, I would consider that an expansion. If you do not believe that adding a third bay to Soarin' is an expansion, then we have no logical common ground for communication. A hugely popular attraction that increases capacity by 50% is an expansion under any definition. Making an underused space popular again is also an expansion in my book. If more people spend time there doing things they want to do, I think most people would concede that that is an expansion. To get a full answer, we would probably also have to look at what all was open in 1981, check the capacities, and compare to the additions since. I would love to do that, but I have real work to do at my job right now.

We've already established that we have no logical common ground for communication. My reference to the Soarin' increase pointed out that it was still a net loss and therefore not an expansion. If you build something in one place and remove something in another, that is replacement, reallocation, etc. but not expansion.

You claim that because attractions weren't popular enough (in your estimation) replacing them is equivalent to expansion. This is nonsense.

Your continuation of the bathroom analogy also fails. Just because more people are interested in using it, does not actually increase the capacity at all. The bathroom is unable to "serve" any additional guests just as a replaced ride doesn't have the ability to serve any more people. More people might utilize it over the previous one because it is in some way "better", but the capacity has not expanded.

In fact, in some cases (Test Track, Mission: Space) the capacity decreased with the replacement.

In any case, enjoy your expanded definition of the word expansion and I will go on my merry way.

Edit: Typo.

 

[RobidaFlats]

Not true. It doubled the size of Fantasyland. That's... significant.

Honest question because I don't have the information in front of me, how much of that "doubling" came at the expense of previous utilized land for Birthdayland et al.?

Also not true. While they are replacing several closed attractions, much of their space is previously unused. Huge, billion-plus dollar expansions to that park.

If you open unused space and shutter used spaced, it's a trade. Now, if they eventually reopen the now unused closed attraction space, that would then be an expansion. The average guest doesn't care that they are on a ride that used to be a backstage area as much as they care that there are still the same number of rides now as there were years before. They may very much prefer the new attractions, but the number of attractions available to them has not expanded.

 

[Chef Mickey]

Everything you say about this point is invalidated if you don't even realize fresh, healthy food is more expensive than prepackaged and "junk" food. People get into cycles that are very hard to break, but you're obviously very privileged and will never take the time to understand their mindset and situation.

Prepackaged food is not less expensive than produce. No idea what you're talking about.

 

[Chef Mickey]

I know you are a "private person"...

I find myself wondering though, how old are you? What area of the country do you live in? You seem quite narrow minded, and I figure knowing your age and location may help me to better understand your point of view.

I live in one of the biggest cities in America and I'm young...doesn't make me narrow minded. Maybe you just haven't seen everything I've seen or we take the data we have and process it differently?

I'm not sure how anyone can argue against America having opportunities other countries fundamentally lack. I simply don't feel sorry for people who have those opportunities and many times quite literally refused to take advantage of them. The second richest man in American consistently states the luckiest person in the world is the baby being born right now in America. He's right.

I mean, you've got a guy here arguing that prepackaged goods are cheaper than fresh food. Can you make this stuff up? People are so ill-informed that they'll call me out for being ill-informed on a topic that is irrefutable. He's literally arguing that a $4 box of cookies or $4 bag of chips is a "better" deal than 4 pounds of grapes or 2 gallons of milk, or 2 dozen eggs or 4 loaves of bread? Tomatoes are $1/lb not even on sale. Bananas are $0.40/lb. Food is so cheap if you know what to buy.

I can make an entire meal for 8 people for under $10, but a bag of chips, cookies, and a 6 pack of coke is easily over $10. Not to mention, the prepacked foods are horrible for you and cause health issues far greater than any perceived cost savings.

 

[Disneyhead'71]

I live in one of the biggest cities in America and I'm young...doesn't make me narrow minded. Maybe you just haven't seen everything I've seen or we take the data we have and process it differently?

I'm not sure how anyone can argue against America having opportunities other countries fundamentally lack. I simply don't feel sorry for people who have those opportunities and many times quite literally refused to take advantage of them. The second richest man in American consistently states the luckiest person in the world is the baby being born right now in America. He's right.

I mean, you've got a guy here arguing that prepackaged goods are cheaper than fresh food. Can you make this stuff up? People are so ill-informed that they'll call me out for being ill-informed on a topic that is irrefutable. He's literally arguing that a $4 box of cookies or $4 bag of chips is a "better" deal than 4 pounds of grapes or 2 gallons of milk, or 2 dozen eggs or 4 loaves of bread? Tomatoes are $1/lb not even on sale. Bananas are $0.40/lb. Food is so cheap if you know what to buy.

I can make an entire meal for 8 people for under $10, but a bag of chips, cookies, and a 6 pack of coke is easily over $10. Not to mention, the prepacked foods are horrible for you and cause health issues far greater than any perceived cost savings.

Young people know everything. You're really smart.

SMH.

 

[Chef Mickey]

Young people know everything. You're really smart.

SMH.

Age ≠ intelligence, as you know.

Lots of stupid old people too, am I right?. Some of the smartest people in the world are young. I think people are either smart or not.

Experience helps, but I've seen people with "20 years experience in business" make the same mistakes 20 years in a row. You have to learn too.

 

[xdan0920]

I live in one of the biggest cities in America and I'm young...doesn't make me narrow minded. Maybe you just haven't seen everything I've seen or we take the data we have and process it differently?

I'm not sure how anyone can argue against America having opportunities other countries fundamentally lack. I simply don't feel sorry for people who have those opportunities and many times quite literally refused to take advantage of them. The second richest man in American consistently states the luckiest person in the world is the baby being born right now in America. He's right.

I mean, you've got a guy here arguing that prepackaged goods are cheaper than fresh food. Can you make this stuff up? People are so ill-informed that they'll call me out for being ill-informed on a topic that is irrefutable. He's literally arguing that a $4 box of cookies or $4 bag of chips is a "better" deal than 4 pounds of grapes or 2 gallons of milk, or 2 dozen eggs or 4 loaves of bread? Tomatoes are $1/lb not even on sale. Bananas are $0.40/lb. Food is so cheap if you know what to buy.

I can make an entire meal for 8 people for under $10, but a bag of chips, cookies, and a 6 pack of coke is easily over $10. Not to mention, the prepacked foods are horrible for you and cause health issues far greater than any perceived cost savings.

I am 34 and live in Bergen County, NJ. So, a little more specific then your answer of "young and a big city".

Yes your age matters, the older you get, the more experiences you accrue, and the less likely you are to make a judgement based on theory. When I was 22, I was an absolutely insufferable moron. I had a lot of the exact same idealistic leanings that you seem to have. Life's experiences have disabused me of those ideals. Life is complicated. Sometimes ye olde bootstraps aren't enough to lift you into the upper middle class and above. Even though, "TRY HARDER" is a key to making your life better, sometimes it's not enough.

Eating healthy is MUCH harder then you are making it sound. Sure, we could all load up on Bananas and save a bundle, but how realistic is that? Where I live, Chicken breast runs about $7lb. Milk runs about $3.50 a gallon, Grapes are around $3lb. I eat healthy, and I know for a fact it's costing me more now, then it was when I was less scrupulous with my diet. Anyway, eating healthy isn't cheaper. At best, it's a wash.


ps. For what it's worth, my bootstraps, combined with my wife's bootstraps, coupled with some luck, were enough to pull us into a comfortable life.

 

[drizgirl]

Age ≠ intelligence, as you know.

Lots of stupid old people too, am I right?. Some of the smartest people in the world are young. I think people are either smart or not.

Experience helps, but I've seen people with "20 years experience in business" make the same mistakes 20 years in a row. You have to learn too.

You might want to put your shovel down.

 

[Sans Souci]

I live in one of the biggest cities in America and I'm young...doesn't make me narrow minded. Maybe you just haven't seen everything I've seen or we take the data we have and process it differently?

I'm not sure how anyone can argue against America having opportunities other countries fundamentally lack. I simply don't feel sorry for people who have those opportunities and many times quite literally refused to take advantage of them. The second richest man in American consistently states the luckiest person in the world is the baby being born right now in America. He's right.

I mean, you've got a guy here arguing that prepackaged goods are cheaper than fresh food. Can you make this stuff up? People are so ill-informed that they'll call me out for being ill-informed on a topic that is irrefutable. He's literally arguing that a $4 box of cookies or $4 bag of chips is a "better" deal than 4 pounds of grapes or 2 gallons of milk, or 2 dozen eggs or 4 loaves of bread? Tomatoes are $1/lb not even on sale. Bananas are $0.40/lb. Food is so cheap if you know what to buy.

I can make an entire meal for 8 people for under $10, but a bag of chips, cookies, and a 6 pack of coke is easily over $10. Not to mention, the prepacked foods are horrible for you and cause health issues far greater than any perceived cost savings.

Large swaths of the US population lack access to one of larger grocery store chains (food deserts), They may only have access to bodegas and mom and pop convenience stores. These shops typically don't carry much in the way of produce and what is available, is overpriced and poor quality.

You can't assume there is a parent available to cook a fresh meal every night. Many people trying to make ends meet pick up an extra job.

I remember reading somewhere that Walgreens was going to carry reasonably priced produce at their inner city locations, but I don't know if that ever came to fruition.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Somewhat on point, personally I struggled to find any food I would possibly put in my mouth in Orlando. I stayed at Int. Drive near UNI, seeking to stock up my fridge a bit with some breakfast and late night items. But what little healthy options there were, were grossly overpriced. $2 bananas and the like, hidden behind ailes of junk food. I checked the Walgreen's and a handful of non-chain supermarkets.

Healthy, unprocessed, affordable options were almost non-existent.

 

[21stamps]

I live in one of the biggest cities in America and I'm young...doesn't make me narrow minded. Maybe you just haven't seen everything I've seen or we take the data we have and process it differently?

I'm not sure how anyone can argue against America having opportunities other countries fundamentally lack. I simply don't feel sorry for people who have those opportunities and many times quite literally refused to take advantage of them. The second richest man in American consistently states the luckiest person in the world is the baby being born right now in America. He's right.

I mean, you've got a guy here arguing that prepackaged goods are cheaper than fresh food. Can you make this stuff up? People are so ill-informed that they'll call me out for being ill-informed on a topic that is irrefutable. He's literally arguing that a $4 box of cookies or $4 bag of chips is a "better" deal than 4 pounds of grapes or 2 gallons of milk, or 2 dozen eggs or 4 loaves of bread? Tomatoes are $1/lb not even on sale. Bananas are $0.40/lb. Food is so cheap if you know what to buy.

I can make an entire meal for 8 people for under $10, but a bag of chips, cookies, and a 6 pack of coke is easily over $10. Not to mention, the prepacked foods are horrible for you and cause health issues far greater than any perceived cost savings.

FWIW, I think a lot of what you're saying is true, and a lot of other people here probably agree with it as well. The first comment just came off rude, I don't think you meant it to sound the way it did.
There are poor people who do want (and are trying to get) a better life, there are also poor people who cheat the system and blow their money away on junk.
You then have middle class people who don't invest, don't plan, spend all of their money on frivolous things as well. On the flip side you have plenty of middle class people who do plan and save.
I don't think there is one blanket statement that can cover them all.
Where I agree with you, is that statistically, lower income people do tend to eat fast food..spend money on flashy items they shouldn't afford, etc etc., which definitely hurts them in the long run. That part is self inflicted. The sad thing is- it's probably a cycle and no one taught them any differently. So we can't really call them stupid, they're just ignorant. That's where outreach programs and mentoring should come into play...these programs benefit the people they are serving, and by extension, all Americans. They need help in the form of guidance, not just checks.
Then again, you have people in that same economic class who take a bus everyday to work, day in, day out, year after year. They may not take Disney vacations, but they make the best of what they have and are probably relatively happy. Maybe even more so than those of us who are always trying to reach that next goal, while our kids are at a sports practice, game, play, etc, and we're at work.

I agree 100% with the Warren Buffett comment.

 

[21stamps]

Somewhat on point, personally I struggled to find any food I would possibly put in my mouth in Orlando. I stayed at Int. Drive near UNI, seeking to stock up my fridge a bit with some breakfast and late night items. But what little healthy options there were, were grossly overpriced. $2 bananas and the like, hidden behind ailes of junk food. I checked the Walgreen's and a handful of non-chain supermarkets.

Healthy, unprocessed, affordable options were almost non-existent.

For future reference- Publix. You'll find plenty. No need to even go to Fresh Market or Whole Foods, Publix has enough options.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

For future reference- Publix. You'll find plenty. No need to even go to Fresh Market or Whole Foods, Publix has enough options.

Great, thanks!

 

[Ralphlaw]

We've already established that we have no logical common ground for communication. My reference to the Soarin' increase pointed out that it was still a net loss and therefore not an expansion. If you build something in one place and remove something in another, that is replacement, reallocation, etc. but not expansion.

You claim that because attractions weren't popular enough (in your estimation) replacing them is equivalent to expansion. This is nonsense.

Your continuation of the bathroom analogy also fails. Just because more people are interested in using it, does not actually increase the capacity at all. The bathroom is unable to "serve" any additional guests just as a replaced ride doesn't have the ability to serve any more people. More people might utilize it over the previous one because it is in some way "better", but the capacity has not expanded.

In fact, in some cases (Test Track, Mission: Space) the capacity decreased with the replacement.

In any case, enjoy your expanded definition of the word expansion and I will go on my merry way.

Edit: Typo.

I'll be done in minute, but the above requires response:

For ten years, we had no WofL and a 2 bay Soarin'. We now have no WofL and a 3 bay Soarin'. I see that as a 50% expansion.

If an attraction isn't popular, replacing it with an attraction that is popular can well be deemed an expansion, and not "nonsense". If more people are gladly spending their time there, thus upping the happiness level, I would consider that an expansion under the terms of quality and guest use. Perhaps not a square foot expansion, but an expansion of good and popular things that people actually like to do. Feel free to disagree, but calling my logic "nonsense" is just rude, and will not win many friends or influence many people.

I do agree that we have no logical common ground for communication, and I am also going on my merry way. But let's all sit back and remember that this is a theme park we're talking about. Compared to the Epcot that I first saw in 2003, I see expansion--some good, some bad (perhaps). Back then, Mission Space was under construction, Test Track wasn't as good or interactive, Soarin' wasn't on the radar screen, WofL was open (but not crowded at all), The Living Seas was largely empty, and the post-ride Spaceship Earth was a dark blue tunnel. Yup, WofL is gone, but not heartily missed. UofE is getting replaced, and everything else is as you see it. For me, I see a much better Future World, but I will not call someone else's opinion "nonsense". Feel free to politely disagree.