Attendance drop in the parks... I wonder why

[xdan0920]

Well, I was actually... agreeing with you. But if you want to put words in my mouth to keep going off-topic, hey, go for it.

 

[Bandini]

2017 is off to a good start. The parks have been packed the last few days. The alcohol festival at Epcot especially. I'm talking summer time crowds. It's been crazy.

But that may not necessarily be true. The parks "feel" packed, because Disney now has the ability to staff based on their anticipated attendance. It's the reason crowd calendars have become useless, every day is a 7 based on the ride capacity.
But the festivals seem to be a great success for Epcot, which probably means Disney will not invest in any real improvements.

 

[Disneyhead'71]

But that may not necessarily be true. The parks "feel" packed, because Disney now has the ability to staff based on their anticipated attendance. It's the reason crowd calendars have become useless, every day is a 7 based on the ride capacity.
But the festivals seem to be a great success for Epcot, which probably means Disney will not invest in any real improvements.

Improvements are coming. Unfortunately, after the budget cuts, it'll be a Guardians of the Galaxy drink kart. A Ratatouille wine cart. And a Big Hero 6 Saki kart in Japan.

 

[Ralphlaw]

Perhaps it's been asked, but are there any available numbers for repeat guests at Disney vs. Universal? Seems to me that that might be some vitally important information to consider, assuming it's even available to mere mortals like us.

 

[Disneyhead'71]

Perhaps it's been asked, but are there any available numbers for repeat guests at Disney vs. Universal? Seems to me that that might be some vitally important information to consider, assuming it's even available to mere mortals like us.

For the most part, access to those kinds of metrics are difficult for us to get.

 

[Ralphlaw]

Yeah, that's what I thought. Informally, and based on gut reaction, Disney seems to have more repeat guests. Mention Cinderella's Castle, Space Mountain or the Epcot golf ball, and a large percentage of people know what you're talking about. I don't think Universal has anything that recognition-worthy across the general population, but Harry Potter is probably starting to come close. I still hear how people were so excited to see the castle and Mickey for the first time. Seeing the Contemporary, and riding through it on the monorail, is an iconic moment for some people. And I think that this ties into repeat guests. It surely prioritizes how some people choose a vacation destination.

From up here in the frozen tundra of Wisconsin, I can name many many people who've taken more than one Disney vacation in the last five years or so. I cannot name a single person who's gone to Universal more than once. That may be meaningless, but it also shows how Disney in some important ways is beating Universal--for now. Question: Is Harry Potter so amazing that the average visitor will want to go again and again, or is it a one time, been there done that?

 

[larryz]

Improvements are coming. Unfortunately, after the budget cuts, it'll be a Guardians of the Galaxy drink kart. A Ratatouille wine cart. And a Big Hero 6 Saki kart in Japan.

I could love me some Big Hero Sakis!

 

[Goofyernmost]

It's going to take at least a generation before the results of the present attitude comes home to roost. People like myself, 45 trips in 34 years are probably more prevalent in people my age then what is likely to happen with progressive generations. My children alone, loved WDW and were younger then 10 when first visiting with me on my very first visit. The two of them collectively have made about 12 trips to WDW since that time and they are adults now with children that are mid to upper teens. The chances are that their children will go even less. Why, because is just isn't the same as it was 34 years ago, economically and magically as it was back then. Beside people my age will be to elderly or even dead soon and will not be able to go to the parks anymore.

Currently they are still riding on Walt's coat tails, however the newest generations wouldn't know Walt Disney if he walked up and bit them. However, because of the past popularity, a Disney Park trip has become a rite of passage for all children, but, it has evolved into more of a one and done experience. Their parents may have brought them once and they may bring their own children once, but, not more then that. I really don't believe that many people catch the Disney fever anymore. Yes, they go there and spend a lot of money, but, they very seldom get hooked anymore.

Why? Well, other places have come into being that aren't Disney, but, offer a lot of the same experience with a whole lot less hassle and other more "sophisticated" adventures have become available as well. Years ago it was an expensive (relatively), but unique experience. They gave you a lot more for your dollar and made you want to go back again and again. Now, unless you are willing to go bankrupt, you can't go again and again even if you want too. The experience is often (not always) a very frustrating and tiring experience. The food sold at extreme premium prices is mediocre at best, the accommodations charged as if it's a 10 star experience, barely reach a 4 star. So, they go once and have a good to moderate fun time and next time go and look at the Grand Canyon or go to Vegas where they at least feel that have a chance of getting some of their money back. Once it is spent in Disney... there is no return of any amount.

So all that to say, as years go on, there will be a lot less repeat visiting. Disney will have figured out a way to get the maximum per trip out of them, but, they in all likelihood, will not be coming back. That is going to be felt. The crowds may get smaller and consequently the profits will fall resulting in less and less being offered. It is a circle. What they do or have done with the parks in the present will yield the results a few years down the road, good or bad, but, it will happen.

 

[Chef Mickey]

Price. The simple fact is if you are not going during the school year, it will cost a fortune to go. A 7-day, 6 night Value resort with 6-day tickets during June for 2 adults and 2 children (3-9) will be just over $2,400. Factor in meals and other stuff, this is easily $3,500. This does not include airfare or driving. Add in airfare and this goes to $4,500.

For many people in the US, this is not a small amount of money. It takes some families 3 years to save that much and that would assume no emergency comes up. Yes, my family is fortunate to be a dual income family that allows us to save up to go every year if we wanted. Trust me, it takes only 1 unplanned emergency to wipe out everything you have saved and much more.

So many things here.

How much "should" it cost? I have said it before and I'll say it again...how expensive is Disney relative to "other" theme parks like it? The only one like it is Universal and they are just as expensive.

How expensive is Disney relative to another top 10 destination? Price out entertainment, hotel, food, and airfare to other TOP destinations (not spending the weekend at your cousin Danny's farm). Disney is great value for 24/7 fun.

Man, if people can't save $4,500 in a year, they are doing it wrong.

People pay $2,000/year to own a cell phone and $1,200/year to watch a box. Other companies are charging you far more for basic service and making A LOT more margin than Disney Parks.

I understand people have problems, but this is America. You can better yourself. You can invest. You can work anywhere. You can work 2 jobs. You can go to school anywhere. There are so many "programs" to help people too. Why do people struggle so much with basic money management?

I know people might not be able to take 2-3 trips per year, but you're acting like a trip to Disney is going to bankrupt the average American. You're probably right, but it's not because Disney is expensive. It's because people blow their money, don't want to work, are comfortable in a dead end joke job, and/or have zero ambition.

I'm tired of Americans crying about not being able to get by. Do something about it. Your life is great relative to so many in the rest of the world...oh, but you are too poor to have traveled anywhere to see it in person. You don't know poverty, struggle, or unfairness.

Sorry, rant over.

 

[Ralphlaw]

Interesting theory. I can't disagree with it, but yet I still see big crowds. I see forums like this in which people hold strong and heartfelt opinions. I see a big hit movie every few years, or even more frequently once Star Wars and Marvel are included, that bring new and former people in. I see a finicky public that is far more critical and demanding, and vocally blast their opinions all over. I also see that capacity is about to increase, while my Boardwalk DVC points increased in resale value by about 25% in just 3 years.

In the meantime, I also ask, "Well, what would you rather do if you're a family?" When I was growing up in the 70s, I knew very few people who'd been to WDW or DL. Yes, Wisconsin is a long ways away, but it was still very uncommon to have known anyone who went. Instead, it was the proverbial trip in the car to see relatives, and maybe a regional zoo or museum. People had water front cottages that we'd hang out at for a few summer days, maybe. Much of this was spurred on by a family wedding with a vacation sort of attached. Rite of Passage? Not my passage. It is definitely not nostalgia for me because I first went in 2003 as a 38 year old.

Meanwhile, I still can't find anything better for a young family, yet the price indeed does seem to be less economical. I also don't know what the short-term solution is for huge crowds other than raising prices. It's easy to say "build more stuff", but that is exactly what they are in the process of doing. It can't happen overnight, but some of it is snail like. Each park has either gotten a significant expansion or is about to (Fantasyland, Soarin's 3rd bay, Star Wars and Pixar Lands, and Pandora).

It's also easy to complain that pre-planning inhibits the fun, but what is the alternative when crowds are this big? I liked the old-fashioned Fast Passes, but I also recall running all over the parks like crazy to get them, and being annoyed when the return time was not convenient. We could just say that a 5th park should be opened, but our economic recovery dilutes the potential pool of people who can be hired in Orlando. From what I understand, central casting is begging for people in all kinds of jobs. Plus, is there a great idea and/or room for a fifth gate?

I still think repeat guests will be flooding the place decades hence. It will just be people with better incomes and/or more room on the credit cards, not so much the lower middle class who, perhaps, could afford to go repeatedly back in that distant time that never was but always shall be. Again, when talking young families, what's the comfortable, accommodating, safe alternative that's palatable for the whole family with a mix of fun, adventure, relaxation, and wide range appeal? I don't know of anything.

 

[Goofyernmost]

So many things here.

How much "should" it cost? I have said it before and I'll say it again...how expensive is Disney relative to "other" theme parks like it? The only one like it is Universal and they are just as expensive.

How expensive is Disney relative to another top 10 destination? Price out entertainment, hotel, food, and airfare to other TOP destinations (not spending the weekend at your cousin Danny's farm). Disney is great value for 24/7 fun.

Man, if people can't save $4,500 in a year, they are doing it wrong.

People pay $2,000/year to own a cell phone and $1,200/year to watch a box. Other companies are charging you far more for basic service and making A LOT more margin than Disney Parks.

I understand people have problems, but this is America. You can better yourself. You can invest. You can work anywhere. You can work 2 jobs. You can go to school anywhere. There are so many "programs" to help people too. Why do people struggle so much with basic money management?

I know people might not be able to take 2-3 trips per year, but you're acting like a trip to Disney is going to bankrupt the average American. You're probably right, but it's not because Disney is expensive. It's because people blow their money, don't want to work, are comfortable in a dead end joke job, and/or have zero ambition.

I'm tired of Americans crying about not being able to get by. Do something about it.

Sorry, rant over.

I wanted to respond to this post, but, honestly cannot find the words that express the complete lack of awareness of the problems of many people in this world that you possess. So they should go without a phone that they get to use 365 days a year or cheap entertainment of cable TV, also used 365 days a year just to go to Disney for a week? Take a second job and never see their family other then that one week out of 51. Yea, that would be worth it.

So many things are far more important then going to a theme park. People that don't work have no money to save up with. No Disney is not expensive as long as you have the income to pay for it. If you don't then it is out of reach. That's OK, because that is the way that luxury items should be, but, what a crock of stuff to say that it is simple just do something about it. If that were possible we would all be rich. Of course, there would be no one to do the work that is required to keep us important people amused.

 

[RobidaFlats]

It's easy to say "build more stuff", but that is exactly what they are in the process of doing. It can't happen overnight, but some of it is snail like. Each park has either gotten a significant expansion or is about to (Fantasyland, Soarin's 3rd bay, Star Wars and Pixar Lands, and Pandora).

This has been addressed so many times, but I still see it all the time.

• Fantasyland was not a significant expansion. For the most part it replaced rides. Replacement is not expansion.
• Soarin's 3rd bay doesn't even make up for the closure of Wonders of Life, let alone expand the park.
• Star Wars and Pixar Lands (while obviously not yet open, so we can't really say for sure) are primarily replacements as well. Quite frankly, that park has been cut down so far that adding just about anything would qualify as an "expansion".
• Pandora is the only legitimate expansion on this list because Camp Minnie-Mickey didn't really contain anything to replace.

 

[Ralphlaw]

This has been addressed so many times, but I still see it all the time.

• Fantasyland was not a significant expansion. For the most part it replaced rides. Replacement is not expansion.
• Soarin's 3rd bay doesn't even make up for the closure of Wonders of Life, let alone expand the park.
• Star Wars and Pixar Lands (while obviously not yet open, so we can't really say for sure) are primarily replacements as well. Quite frankly, that park has been cut down so far that adding just about anything would qualify as an "expansion".
• Pandora is the only legitimate expansion on this list because Camp Minnie-Mickey didn't really contain anything to replace.

Fantasyland replaced a closed 20,000 Leagues and other walk throughs. The replacement is a new Ariel ride, a new Belle story area, two well themed restaurants, a full-fledged coaster, and an extra Dumbo ride. Remind me what was there before. I have basically no memory other than Mickey and Minnie's respective houses, which were fun, but basically a very short walk through and out.

WofL has been gone for what, ten years? For a decade, Epcot had no WofL and 2 Soarin' bays. Now it has no WofL and 3 Soarin' Bays. I consider that expansion from a fairly well settled benchmark. I also believe that the replacement for Universe of Energy will be far more popular than Alex and Ellen, which was well past its prime. I also think that Test Track's refurb a few years back was far cooler than the old version. Improvements, and arguably expansion if more people want to go on them.

Star Wars and Pixar are also replacing walk-throughs and Lights, Motor Action. The Streets of New York was basically nothing, other than at Christmas. LMA was cool, but I think the novelty was wearing off and I never seemed to be around at the right time to walk all the way around and see it.

Agreed on Pandora, but hope to actually see it soon.

 

[RobidaFlats]

Fantasyland replaced a closed 20,000 Leagues and other walk throughs. The replacement is a new Ariel ride, a new Belle story area, two well themed restaurants, a full-fledged coaster, and an extra Dumbo ride. Remind me what was there before. I have basically no memory other than Mickey and Minnie's respective houses, which were fun, but basically a very short walk through and out.

In addition to 20k, Snow White's Scary Adventures was also replaced. The Birthdayland/Toontown was mostly walk throughs, and I grant that an actual ride is an improvement. However, I would probably equate the walk-throughs to Enchanted Tales with Belle. In fact, the Disney Afternoon stage show thing was probably very equivalent. In any case, aside from restaurants, there was a trade of 2 rides for 2 rides and an extra Dumbo spinner. I rate that as "not a significant expansion".

WofL has been gone for what, ten years? For a decade, Epcot had no WofL and 2 Soarin' bays. Now it has no WofL and 3 Soarin' Bays. I consider that expansion from a fairly well settled benchmark.

So by that logic, if they close things for long enough, they can then be commended for expansion? Absurd on its face.

Star Wars and Pixar are also replacing walk-throughs and Lights, Motor Action. The Streets of New York was basically nothing, other than at Christmas. LMA was cool, but I think the novelty was wearing off and I never seemed to be around at the right time to walk all the way around and see it.

Reducing the Backlot Tour to a "walk-through" is a little disingenuous. Even calling the Honey I Shrunk the Kids playground a walk-through is a little much. The former home of Monster Sound Show (and other things later) is now used for a 10 minute Star Wars show that I believe is a stop-gap until Star Wars Land really happens. Is the former Superstar Television show being used for anything at the moment? I'm glad you think LMA was cool (not my thing) but declaring that the novelty wore off in no way makes a replacement not a replacement.

 

[RobidaFlats]

Sorry, I missed a part in my last post.

Improvements, and arguably expansion if more people want to go on them.

You can only argue that as an expansion if you don't mind changing the definition of expansion. As an example, if I redo one of the bathrooms in my 3 bedroom, 2 bath house, no matter how pretty and inviting it is, I still can't sell the house as a 3 bedroom, 3 bath house. It doesn't matter how awesome something is, if it is a replacement, it is not an expansion.

 

[Otterhead]

Man, if people can't save $4,500 in a year, they are doing it wrong.

They're doing what wrong? Saving money to take care of their kids, save for college, buy food, pay for insurance, and do all the other things that are far more important than a vacation?

You can work anywhere. You can work 2 jobs. You can go to school anywhere.

I wish all of those things were true, but for many people, they are not. Disney vacations are a luxury that I am happy to be able to afford every year or two. But I know many people struggling to just afford food or their apartment and still pay for insurance. Let's be realistic about luxury trips.

It's because people blow their money, don't want to work, are comfortable in a dead end joke job, and/or have zero ambition.

You're claiming that people can't go to WDW because they're too lazy to better themselves? This is truly entitled and disgusting.

 

[Otterhead]

Fantasyland was not a significant expansion.

Not true. It doubled the size of Fantasyland. That's... significant.

Star Wars and Pixar Lands (while obviously not yet open, so we can't really say for sure) are primarily replacements as well.

Also not true. While they are replacing several closed attractions, much of their space is previously unused. Huge, billion-plus dollar expansions to that park.

 

[drizgirl]

So many things here.

How much "should" it cost? I have said it before and I'll say it again...how expensive is Disney relative to "other" theme parks like it? The only one like it is Universal and they are just as expensive.

How expensive is Disney relative to another top 10 destination? Price out entertainment, hotel, food, and airfare to other TOP destinations (not spending the weekend at your cousin Danny's farm). Disney is great value for 24/7 fun.

Man, if people can't save $4,500 in a year, they are doing it wrong.

People pay $2,000/year to own a cell phone and $1,200/year to watch a box. Other companies are charging you far more for basic service and making A LOT more margin than Disney Parks.

I understand people have problems, but this is America. You can better yourself. You can invest. You can work anywhere. You can work 2 jobs. You can go to school anywhere. There are so many "programs" to help people too. Why do people struggle so much with basic money management?

I know people might not be able to take 2-3 trips per year, but you're acting like a trip to Disney is going to bankrupt the average American. You're probably right, but it's not because Disney is expensive. It's because people blow their money, don't want to work, are comfortable in a dead end joke job, and/or have zero ambition.

I'm tired of Americans crying about not being able to get by. Do something about it. Your life is great relative to so many in the rest of the world...oh, but you are too poor to have traveled anywhere to see it in person. You don't know poverty, struggle, or unfairness.

Sorry, rant over.

You should write a book or something.

 

[Chef Mickey]

You should write a book or something.

My arguments are old and tired, but they are somewhere in the realm of right on point. America has limitless opportunity. Many peoples' favorite president even said so...yet, there are so many who squander it and ask, "why me?" "Somebody help me!!" Help yourself.

 

[Chef Mickey]

They're doing what wrong? Saving money to take care of their kids, save for college, buy food, pay for insurance, and do all the other things that are far more important than a vacation?

I wish all of those things were true, but for many people, they are not. Disney vacations are a luxury that I am happy to be able to afford every year or two. But I know many people struggling to just afford food or their apartment and still pay for insurance. Let's be realistic about luxury trips.


You're claiming that people can't go to WDW because they're too lazy to better themselves? This is truly entitled and disgusting.

You make it sound like people are doing the right things and that's why they are unable to save $4500 for a vacation. Oh, the poor victims. Whatever.

You mean the chips, Coke, and other prepackaged (expensive) items people buy every week? Or you mean taking a government loan or handout to send their kids to college to get a worthless degree in history or social studies? Or do you mean racking up tons up credit card debt and leasing a car they can't afford so they can keep up with the Joneses?

I read the stats. In general, the lower middle/middle class doesn't have any money because they are in over their heads on their house and cars. They also have broken homes where husband/wife aren't working together to take care of the kids they shouldn't even have.

I'm a private person so I won't go into detail, but I can tell you I see first hand the benefits American citizens throw away every day. I have absolutely zero pity for them. Many do it the right way, but far too many don't. In most cases, it's their own fault. Don't have enough money? Get a better job. Save more. Sell some stuff. Fix it yourself. You don't need MY help or anyone else's.