All things Knotts Berry Farm

[Phroobar]

At least this stuff doesn't happen at Disn...oops. They should have all been kicked out (if they weren't) and the sucker punch at :25 in apparently landed her in jail. This was apparently the second fight at WDW this week.

Where was Magic Kingdom security? They just come wondering up at the end. Knotts security was running to the scene to break it up and disperse the crowd immediately. Here you have a couple of ride operators wonder over but not trying to break it up. It looked like members of the same family were taking shots at each other and then other people as well. Those people should be in jail for assault.

 

[Stevek]

Where was Magic Kingdom security? They just come wondering up at the end. Knotts security was running to the scene to break it up and disperse the crowd immediately. Here you have a couple of ride operators wonder over but not trying to break it up. It looked like members of the same family were taking shots at each other and then other people as well. Those people should be in jail for assault.

Look how long it took security to arrive during the Toowntown brawl at Disneyland. There has always been this mystique about hidden Disney security but they end up taking so long to arrive and unfortunately, front line CMs have to step in harms way.

 

[Phroobar]

Look how long it took security to arrive during the Toowntown brawl at Disneyland. There has always been this mystique about hidden Disney security but they end up taking so long to arrive and unfortunately, front line CMs have to step in harms way.

There is no such thing as plain clothes Disney security unless they are looking for shoplifters.

 

[Rich Brownn]

For me it comes down to opportunity cost as well. If Knott's food is free, that's great, but if it takes me ~30 minutes to get to the restaurant I choose to eat at in the park because of parking and all the logistics involved in entering a theme park, that might negate the price of the food for me. Instead of investing that time to eat at the park, I could have gone to a fast food restaurant, paid, and eaten in a much shorter amount of time.

It's like those people who will drive 30 minutes to get cheaper gas instead of just going to the more expensive station right by their home. Sure, technically the gas 30 min away is cheaper, but you're also spending a lot more gas to get to the cheaper station than the one close to you, thus at least somewhat negating the savings.

For me, I'd rather pay the monetary investment instead of the time investment, but YMMV.

Knott's whole existence started because people were waiting so long to get into the restaurant for the chicken dinners. LOL

 

[Stevek]

Where was Magic Kingdom security? They just come wondering up at the end. Knotts security was running to the scene to break it up and disperse the crowd immediately. Here you have a couple of ride operators wonder over but not trying to break it up. It looked like members of the same family were taking shots at each other and then other people as well. Those people should be in jail for assault.

So this is apparently what happened...from the site that shall not be named. This is apparently from a member of the family not in the matching clothing:

The guest and their family were in line for Mickey’s PhilharMagic when one member realized their phone was left in their ECV, so she exited to retrieve it. On her way back in, the family in matching apparel denied to let her pass back to her family, pushing her back so they could let the line move a bit further along.

Upon exiting the theater, the red shorts and white shirt family waited at the exit to confront them, with one member of the guest’s family saying “Listen man, we don’t want trouble, we don’t appreciate you guys pushing my younger sister” before it quickly escalated into a shouting match.

The family who reached out says the first person accosted was the guest who re-entered the line, with her brother engaging as a response. Shortly after, the brawl on camera broke out. The matching apparel family reportedly stole or broke much of what was on their person, including phones, designer clothes, and accessories. In the end, the guests were escorted to a Walt Disney World security office for a statement, with one member of the guests’ family taken away in an ambulance due to a large cut in his chin, with other members of the family receiving cuts and bruises.

Apparently the family that was originally accosted has been banned from WDW. Two members of the family in the matching attire were arrested.


They have additional footage that shows both families acting like idiots. All this could have been avoided had the matching clothing family not waited outside the line AND both families not engaged and re-engaged each other. Just absolute stupidity.

 

[DrAlice]

Here is the policy
View attachment 654509

I'm wondering how this is going to work when it is only two days per week during the summer.

I used to live about 30 minutes from Great America in Santa Clara. When I got my driver's license, my friends and I would go hang out at the park on our own. We didn't go all the time, and I'm not sure I would consider it "babysitting". It was just a more fun place to go hang out than the mall - because RIDES!

Anyway, relating this to Knotts' new policy: we went during the week in the summer (when our parents were at work), so a weekend ban on unchaperoned teenagers would not have effected us at all. Will the new policy just push troubled teenagers to start fights during the week? I guess time will tell.

 

[CaptinEO]

Look how long it took security to arrive during the Toowntown brawl at Disneyland. There has always been this mystique about hidden Disney security but they end up taking so long to arrive and unfortunately, front line CMs have to step in harms way.

It's clear it's the same policy as Disneyland. AKA have everyone stand and watch a violent assault because legal deems the outcome cheaper than getting involved.

Can't blame Disney for this one, blame the legal system.

 

[el_super]

It's not going to be at all difficult for the park to enforce, assuming they are actually do it, it's just a matter of asking for ID.

So anyone who looks under 21, trying to enter the park, should be automatically carded? Essentially the same infallible system that prevents the youth of America from gaining access to alcohol.

And if they say they are over 17 and don't have their ID on them, they should be automatically denied entry? Whether they are 16 or 17 or even 21, if they can't prove it, they're out?

Those teens, if they are to be pitied, can still easily do exactly what they've been doing 5/7 days of the week. I don't think the park is that concerned about being out money-they've probably gotten those teens' money anyway through the AP.

So how is this any better if the teens can just re-schedule their takeover events for the weekdays?


Really though the problem here isn't the knee-jerk reaction and haphazard policy, it's the fact that up until Saturday, Knott's thought they *needed* to attract people with the cheapest admission possible. Seeing signs that they are changing their mind on that is great, but they still can't fully commit to giving up the cheap passes, since they will still allow the babysitting to continue five days of the week.

Meanwhile they are inconveniencing parents and chaperones that have already expressed concern at supervising even groups of four or five kids. Well really, they are inconveniencing everyone if they are going to have to stop parties at the main gate in order to card them.

But yeah, enforcing this policy is all the park needs to do. That's really it. I don't think they're in quite the situation you believe they are.

All they have to do is hope that the kids don't decide to reschedule their takeover events for Sundays instead of Saturdays. Problem solved.

Heck, apparently there was a fight at Magic Kingdom a few days ago, in addition to other incidents I've mentioned earlier in thread. It is no longer a situation where you can assume something about the quality of park if fights break out, this is literally happening everywhere. Perhaps we can make societal commentary about that, but it's clear that price, prestige, or "clientele" (and all other potentially loaded descriptors people choose to use) no longer make a difference on where fights will break out among parks. It's happening everywhere. This policy is a very sensible and effective way to deal with it.

There is a big difference between one singular fight breaking out, and 200 fights breaking out at once. I'm sure that there are fights and security issues at Knott's every single day and that would be hardly newsworthy.

This is different. Knott's is being specifically targeted for violent takeovers due in part to their cheap and easy access.

 

[PiratesMansion]

Knott's whole existence started because people were waiting so long to get into the restaurant for the chicken dinners. LOL

Obviously. But point being, if you're eating at the chicken dinner restaurant, you're not actually entering the park and you can theoretically get into the more convenient marketplace lot. My point stands.

So anyone who looks under 21, trying to enter the park, should be automatically carded? Essentially the same infallible system that prevents the youth of America from gaining access to alcohol.

And if they say they are over 17 and don't have their ID on them, they should be automatically denied entry? Whether they are 16 or 17 or even 21, if they can't prove it, they're out?





So how is this any better if the teens can just re-schedule their takeover events for the weekdays?


Really though the problem here isn't the knee-jerk reaction and haphazard policy, it's the fact that up until Saturday, Knott's thought they *needed* to attract people with the cheapest admission possible. Seeing signs that they are changing their mind on that is great, but they still can't fully commit to giving up the cheap passes, since they will still allow the babysitting to continue five days of the week.

Meanwhile they are inconveniencing parents and chaperones that have already expressed concern at supervising even groups of four or five kids. Well really, they are inconveniencing everyone if they are going to have to stop parties at the main gate in order to card them.




All they have to do is hope that the kids don't decide to reschedule their takeover events for Sundays instead of Saturdays. Problem solved.




There is a big difference between one singular fight breaking out, and 200 fights breaking out at once. I'm sure that there are fights and security issues at Knott's every single day and that would be hardly newsworthy.

This is different. Knott's is being specifically targeted for violent takeovers due in part to their cheap and easy access.

My goodness.

I don't see people getting fake IDs to enter a park, especially when they can just go the other five days a week. C'mon. And again, there's probably a decent chance that many of these people engaging in this behavior were APs and their information is already on file anyway. 99% of people 18 and older (or even younger because of driver's licenses) aren't idiots and know that they need to have an ID on them at all times in public anyway, so if it is an actual issue, I don't feel bad in denying them entry. Having your ID with is an extremely basic societal expectation. If for some reason they don't have one, school IDs could conceivably work. The sky will not fall. Everything will be fine. Promise.

And Knott's is hardly the only park with cheap passes. Until very, very recently SFMM was in the same boat, and any changes there were due to new corporate philosophy rather than because of incidents. They got by just fine.

If parents can't supervise their own children I don't feel any sympathy for them. One of those days is a day most parents are off of work anyway. Is it awful to expect them to spend a day at a park with their children and make sure they don't act like idiots? Again, their kids can still go 5/7 if this is such a burden.

If they need to add sunday, I'm sure they will and they won't wring any hands over it.

Do you have proof that 200 fights broke out at once and/or that Knott's is specifically being targeted for fights? Seems like you just picked a big number and made a claim and just ran with it.

And again, if you have such concern about safety at Knott's, why are you spending so much time arguing against what will likely be a very effective solution, and if they need to expand it to more days it will be very easy to do so? Make it make sense.

 

[Phroobar]

Obviously. But point being, if you're eating at the chicken dinner restaurant, you're not actually entering the park and you can theoretically get into the more convenient marketplace lot. My point stands.

My goodness.

I don't see people getting fake IDs to enter a park, especially when they can just go the other five days a week. C'mon. And again, there's probably a decent chance that many of these people engaging in this behavior were APs and their information is already on file anyway. 99% of people 18 and older (or even younger because of driver's licenses) aren't idiots and know that they need to have an ID on them at all times in public anyway, so if it is an actual issue, I don't feel bad in denying them entry. Having your ID with is an extremely basic societal expectation. If for some reason they don't have one, school IDs could conceivably work. The sky will not fall. Everything will be fine. Promise.

And Knott's is hardly the only park with cheap passes. Until very, very recently SFMM was in the same boat, and any changes there were due to new corporate philosophy rather than because of incidents. They got by just fine.

If parents can't supervise their own children I don't feel any sympathy for them. One of those days is a day most parents are off of work anyway. Is it awful to expect them to spend a day at a park with their children and make sure they don't act like idiots? Again, their kids can still go 5/7 if this is such a burden.

If they need to add sunday, I'm sure they will and they won't wring any hands over it.

Do you have proof that 200 fights broke out at once and/or that Knott's is specifically being targeted for fights? Seems like you just picked a big number and made a claim and just ran with it.

And again, if you have such concern about safety at Knott's, why are you spending so much time arguing against what will likely be a very effective solution, and if they need to expand it to more days it will be very easy to do so? Make it make sense.

el_super is just being obtuse. That is what he does.

 

[Phroobar]

I'm wondering how this is going to work when it is only two days per week during the summer.

I used to live about 30 minutes from Great America in Santa Clara. When I got my driver's license, my friends and I would go hang out at the park on our own. We didn't go all the time, and I'm not sure I would consider it "babysitting". It was just a more fun place to go hang out than the mall - because RIDES!

Anyway, relating this to Knotts' new policy: we went during the week in the summer (when our parents were at work), so a weekend ban on unchaperoned teenagers would not have effected us at all. Will the new policy just push troubled teenagers to start fights during the week? I guess time will tell.

I'm sure changing the policy to seven days a week takes about five minutes for management.

 

[CaptinEO]

Not having grown up in Southern California, using a theme park as a regular hang out seems so odd. I'm curious if anyone here did so and what that was like.

I had a six flags pass in Jr High and so did my friends. I think it's wrong to not allow kids/teens to enter without guardians certain days. If they bought a pass they should sue.

 

[Stevek]

I had a six flags pass in Jr High and so did my friends. I think it's wrong to not allow kids/teens to enter without guardians certain days. If they bought a pass they should sue.

Unfortunately, conditions change...the issue where a few bad eggs ruin it for those that never cause problems. Knott's is absolutely doing the right thing, they really don't have any other options given this isn't the first time this has occurred. Adding more security isn't likely the answer, you don't want it looking like a prison with security everywhere. If people could just act like decent human beings, this wouldn't be an issue. I'm guessing there is wording where Knott's has the ability to modify their terms and conditions.

 

[CaptinEO]

Unfortunately, conditions change...the issue where a few bad eggs ruin it for those that never cause problems. Knott's is absolutely doing the right thing, they really don't have any other options given this isn't the first time this has occurred. Adding more security isn't likely the answer, you don't want it looking like a prison with security everywhere. If people could just act like decent human beings, this wouldn't be an issue. I'm guessing there is wording where Knott's has the ability to modify their terms and conditions.

I don't know if this is the right thing. Many teens are 100% fine. My friends and I were in robotics club of all things.

In many cases such as my own, my parents and my friends parents did not have passes. Now you're supposed to bring your mom with you to go to a themepark?

Even if it's cheaper than Disneyland, Season Passes are still expensive items. To deny kids of their hang out spots for money them or their parents spent is not good IMO.

I'd imagine people will have lawsuits in bound.

I know we are on the Disneyland forum but 99 dollars for a pass is a lot for many.

 

[Ismael Flores]

Disneyland resort district created a bubble so Anaheim can't get into it. I wonder if Knotts can do the same with an expansion and moving of backstage facilities as buffer. Probably Cedar Fair doesn't have the cash or political power to do it.

They have parking lots on all four sides of the property. But they have Beach Blvd running directly across their property. If they could privatize Western Ave and use that parking lot for backstage, that would stop bad guys on that side. A parking structure could be added to the main parking lot with the entrance near the tunnel under Beach is. Grand Ave would be removed. There would be hotel expansion. Two large tunnels would be added under Beach. The expansion next to Soak City could be used for hotel parking or shopping. A sound wall would be built along Beach with just an entrance and exit to the park on it.

I think this is what Disney would have done if they bought the property and turned it into Disney America like what was planned in the 90's. I think Disney would have boughten out those houses on the lower left and moved the Berry Marketplace there.

View attachment 654279

They really should close off Grand and stop allowing cars to go right pass the entrance. The main parking lot next to water park should become one or two large parking structures with direct entrance and exits.

The map also doesn’t show their northern property which is used for parking and sits next to the stables.

They do need to consider expanding the park south and relocate their backstage across the street. Most logical place would be north parking area which is the smallest and next to the stables. If tunnel is prohibited the road is not extremely wide so they can actually put to use the street light that is already there. They also have an existing gate and backstage road back there

 

[el_super]

The sky will not fall. Everything will be fine. Promise.

Different perspective I guess. The sky is already falling over there.

And Knott's is hardly the only park with cheap passes.

Which of these other parks have been closed due to a riot in the last year?

Do you have proof that 200 fights broke out at once and/or that Knott's is specifically being targeted for fights? Seems like you just picked a big number and made a claim and just ran with it.

It was from a post on Twitter from someone claiming to be in Knott's security, and to be fair I took that to mean that had 200 incidents recorded that day, some of which were probably duplicates.

But again, and it's an odd thing to gloss over, there were so many fights breaking out that their security team was overwhelmed and the general safety of the park was in danger. Even if, as seems to be the case, the fights were isolated to specific participants and not spilling over to random guests, security responding to all these incidents means less security to respond to OTHER potential concerns. It's a domino effect.

And again, if you have such concern about safety at Knott's, why are you spending so much time arguing against what will likely be a very effective solution, and if they need to expand it to more days it will be very easy to do so? Make it make sense.

Simple: I don't think this solution will be all that effective. I can't help but feel we are back in time, on the heels of the last park melee, arguing that it will never happen again. And it has.

And to be honest, we haven't really addressed the biggest problem with what happened last week: that Knott's management/security made a dangerous situation far worse by closing the park and trying to funnel everyone toward the exit at the same time. That was a terrible error in judgement.

The video of the kid screaming that he didn't want to die was a direct result of the stampede that occured at the exit.[/Quote]

 

[el_super]

el_super is just being obtuse. That is what he does.

To be honest it's a little weird to see people who want to hold Disney to account for not painting their buildings or responding to a family fight in 40 seconds, trying to hand wave a small little riot occuring at another park.

 

[el_super]

I'm sure changing the policy to seven days a week takes about five minutes for management.

Seriously though ... Why not do it now? Why release a half baked policy that still makes rioting possible 5 days a week?

 

[Stevek]

I don't know if this is the right thing. Many teens are 100% fine. My friends and I were in robotics club of all things.

In many cases such as my own, my parents and my friends parents did not have passes. Now you're supposed to bring your mom with you to go to a themepark?

Even if it's cheaper than Disneyland, Season Passes are still expensive items. To deny kids of their hang out spots for money them or their parents spent is not good IMO.

I'd imagine people will have lawsuits in bound.

I know we are on the Disneyland forum but 99 dollars for a pass is a lot for many.

Like I said, the good often get punished because of the actions of the bad. It may be an overcorrection or overreaction but Knott's really had no option for right now. It may change over time while they figure it out.

 

[truecoat]

The Mall of America had a problem with teens and initiated a policy that youth under 16 must be accompanied by an adult 21 years or older from 3 p.m. to close. And you know what? It works pretty well.