Al Lutz: "Management must stop bending over to pick up pennies as dollars fly over their heads"

celluloid

Well-Known Member
Ghostbusters, Goonies, Gremlins, Lord of The Rings, Terminator are not kids movies, yet kids enjoy them as well as adults and buy into the merchandise. Toys R Us and cake was just one indicator. If you think Avatar has the lasting power anywhere near Star Wars, Harry Potter, Indiana Jones or James Bond you are really kidding yourself.

Face it, Avatar brought a lot of money for the movie hype, but the real money for a theme park attraction is made on guest spending. An Avatar set of gift shops and restaurants is thematically ugly and would have little to make people purchase because there is no connection of lasting power.
 

twebber55

Well-Known Member
Ghostbusters, Goonies, Gremlins, Lord of The Rings, Terminator are not kids movies, yet kids enjoy them as well as adults and buy into the merchandise. Toys R Us and cake was just one indicator. If you think Avatar has the lasting power anywhere near Star Wars, Harry Potter, Indiana Jones or James Bond you are really kidding yourself.

Face it, Avatar brought a lot of money for the movie hype, but the real money for a theme park attraction is made on guest spending. An Avatar set of gift shops and restaurants is thematically ugly and would have little to make people purchase because there is no connection of lasting power.
i guess we just disagree
i mean i loved the ride and the land looked great but the merchandise just wasnt very good..never heard anyone say that...you make the land look like the movie and people will flock to DAK
 

celluloid

Well-Known Member
People don't say that, their wallets do.

To think that a theme park makes the majority of their money based off of attendance is ignorance to the industry. The attraction gets people in, the food and merchandise, food and beverage is where the money is at. Why do you think we have things like Be Our Guest, Lafou's Brew, Photopass and Butterbeer? That is where the profit margins are.
 

twebber55

Well-Known Member
People don't say that, their wallets do.

To think that a theme park makes the majority of their money based off of attendance is ignorance to the industry. The attraction gets people in, the food and merchandise, food and beverage is where the money is at. Why do you think we have things like Be Our Guest, Lafou's Brew, Photopass and Butterbeer? That is where the profit margins are.
of course when did i say anything about the importance of food, merchandise etc....got to get them in the park first
and not saying i disagree with you however,just that avatar can be a great land and whether or not it has great merchandise is not part of the equation on the level of theme park entertainment

dont really think im making an IGNORANT comment

i mean a motorbike coaster ride through avatar is just as good if not better than same ride as a themed to star wars or tron
 

celluloid

Well-Known Member
The discussion at hand though was on if it had lasting potential. Merchandise decides that ultimately. And don't get me wrong, I really hope it is a fantastic ride as with any attraction on this level. That does not mean it is a wise choice over others. Attendance is never a huge issue for WDW. It is a battle against Guest Spending. Even with their numbers drop just about any whiz bang promotion that they make up gets people back on tradition. But taking five years to make an attraction based on something that does not have sell-ability long term is not wise. That is what many here are discussing. You can get them in the park to ride that Avatar ride all you want but if they exit through the gift shop and many are not buying something, a theme park that is struggling with guest spending more than attendance is not going to be happy with the results.

Gone with the Wind is the most financially successful film of all time, even more than Avatar. Avatar just seems like it did incredible with inflation and so many Imax, 3D and Imax 3D ticket sales. It still did very well but that just inflated the cost per ticket. It was the first mainstream movie to bring the 3D back to theatrical run films for this era. Had a hype machine. Means nothing in terms of longevity.

Simple fact: if Avatar was as sellable as Potter, Indy or Star Wars, or even Lord of The Rings there would be companies pushing merchandise.
 

Captain Chaos

Well-Known Member
Ghostbusters, Goonies, Gremlins, Lord of The Rings, Terminator are not kids movies, yet kids enjoy them as well as adults and buy into the merchandise. Toys R Us and cake was just one indicator. If you think Avatar has the lasting power anywhere near Star Wars, Harry Potter, Indiana Jones or James Bond you are really kidding yourself.

Face it, Avatar brought a lot of money for the movie hype, but the real money for a theme park attraction is made on guest spending. An Avatar set of gift shops and restaurants is thematically ugly and would have little to make people purchase because there is no connection of lasting power.
Funny, I didn't see any kids in my neighborhood dressed as a character from LotR, Gremlins, Goonies, or Ghostbusts... Well, guess that aren't popular since no kids dressed as any of those characters in my town.. I did this right, didn't I? I have to say these aren't popular cause I didn't see kids dressed in any of these costumes... This is how we base popularity, correct??? oh, and because I didn't see it IT MUST BE TRUE!!!! Forget there are 300 million people (maybe more) in the USA.. Because I didn't see it in my one little town in this vast land, IT HAS TO BE THAT WAY FOR THE ENTIRE WORLD!!!!!
 

twebber55

Well-Known Member
The discussion at hand though was on if it had lasting potential. Merchandise decides that ultimately. And don't get me wrong, I really hope it is a fantastic ride as with any attraction on this level. That does not mean it is a wise choice over others. Attendance is never a huge issue for WDW. It is a battle against Guest Spending. Even with their numbers drop just about any whiz bang promotion that they make up gets people back on tradition. But taking five years to make an attraction based on something that does not have sell-ability long term is not wise. That is what many here are discussing. You can get them in the park to ride that Avatar ride all you want but if they exit through the gift shop and many are not buying something, a theme park that is struggling with guest spending more than attendance is not going to be happy with the results.

Gone with the Wind is the most financially successful film of all time, even more than Avatar. Avatar just seems like it did incredible with inflation and so many Imax, 3D and Imax 3D ticket sales. It still did very well but that just inflated the cost per ticket. It was the first mainstream movie to bring the 3D back to theatrical run films for this era. Had a hype machine. Means nothing in terms of longevity.

Simple fact: if Avatar was as sellable as Potter, Indy or Star Wars, or even Lord of The Rings there would be companies pushing merchandise.
simple fact = your opinion which i think you make some solid points about merchandise but the average person going to disney wants to have a good time and will spend money
thats why avatar is a bigger sellar than BK..great themeing with a popular brand.....box office numbers, avatar web sites tv ratings all point to the success of avatar ...anyway i guess we could debate all night
 

celluloid

Well-Known Member
uhhh your comment about a halloween experiment may be misdirected. That said my extreme comparison to 80s cult was to show that those are still remembered even on places like Toys R Us like locations when the phrase "not really a kids movie" was brought into the picture. Halloween would be just one example(and not even the 'experiment' I did)

But yes, this is how popularity is based when it comes to such things. Lasting power through memorabilia and food and merch that they can connected through theming to its popular culture. This is why even if Disney made a sucky ride, it would still make more money because it is based on a property of theirs compared to an awesome ride at an amusement park.

Once again, it is a fact that a theme park makes most of its intake on food and merch, not admission. No one recently is questioning the quality of the potential product as an attraction, but questioning its lasting power. In truth and fairness only time will tell, but if the current merchandise available is any indication its not a strong brand in that category.
 

twebber55

Well-Known Member
i am for star wars expansion but i wonder if the execs at disney worry about the fact that ST2 didnt exactly bring in the crowds...they may wait to the next round of movies come out before expansion
 

twebber55

Well-Known Member
uhhh your comment about a halloween experiment may be misdirected. That said my extreme comparison to 80s cult was to show that those are still remembered even on places like Toys R Us like locations when the phrase "not really a kids movie" was brought into the picture. Halloween would be just one example(and not even the 'experiment' I did)

But yes, this is how popularity is based when it comes to such things. Lasting power through memorabilia and food and merch that they can connected through theming to its popular culture. This is why even if Disney made a sucky ride, it would still make more money because it is based on a property of theirs compared to an awesome ride at an amusement park.

Once again, it is a fact that a theme park makes most of its intake on food and merch, not admission. No one recently is questioning the quality of the potential product as an attraction, but questioning its lasting power. In truth and fairness only time will tell, but if the current merchandise available is any indication its not a strong brand in that category.
butter beer is an example of a theme park making a quality drink that was mentioned about twice in the entire harry potter series..so theme parks have ways to be creative on things like this
 

awoogala

Well-Known Member
We have been invited to numerous Star Wars b-day parties. Boys 7-10 especially seem to get into an obsession. I have only ever seen one child wearing an avatar costume. Everywhere I go, Star Wars is huge for halloween. Every year we have a handful of ghostbusters, and there are always a sprinkling of Indiana Jones. These things are timeless for a reason. They made such an effect on us, that we tend to introduce them to our kids as soon as we think they will "get them". I just don't see people making sure their kids or grandkids see avatar 10, 20 years from now.
 

twebber55

Well-Known Member
We have been invited to numerous Star Wars b-day parties. Boys 7-10 especially seem to get into an obsession. I have only ever seen one child wearing an avatar costume. Everywhere I go, Star Wars is huge for halloween. Every year we have a handful of ghostbusters, and there are always a sprinkling of Indiana Jones. These things are timeless for a reason. They made such an effect on us, that we tend to introduce them to our kids as soon as we think they will "get them". I just don't see people making sure their kids or grandkids see avatar 10, 20 years from now.
i agree to a certain extent thats why i say expanD STAR WARS IN DHS
 

twebber55

Well-Known Member
i mean that have great star wars presence at DHS already...basically an entire month dedicated to it..expand the land to add a ride and a restaurant all for it but DAK needs something and i think avatar will be huge

avatars numbers were huge globally so maybe they re thinking international guest will like this addition
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Except rubes diminish the BRAND and that can lead to erosion and eventual disintegration of it. It's fine to go after their business. But not at the expense at folks who remember when Mickey didn't extort Christmas from you. Or that you could just show up and walk in a table service restaurant and the prices would have a premium over the real world, but not a 42% one. Or that all guests were treated as VIPs and not stratified based on where they stayed and how much they spent.

And, again, I don't believe everyone out there has any desire to visit WDW. It is supremely arrogant of WDW to assume otherwise.

Yes, I suppose that if you feel that "Rubes" are totally without the power of observations, that could be true. However, any business would aim for the spot that was less costly and more profitable. Disney quality is close to being matched but only in rare cases. Universal gets it, and has invested money (lots of money) in bringing their standards up to what, at least, was Disney quality. But they are an exception. One might point to places like Tokyo and say that their quality is better than WDW and it very well might be true, however, it's located on the other side of the world and it's goal was to keep the Asian contingency there and stop them from needing to circumvent the globe to get that fix.

I just last night, returned from a quick trip to Dollywood. Two thing about the place were vastly superior to WDW. The Christmas lighting made Disney's look like it was designed and displayed by a group of ten year olds doing a school project. It was nothing short of spectacular. The train ride was soooo much better then Disneys in the sense that it was far more realistic, even to the point of warning riders that there was a possibility that they could get cinders in their eyes from the full sized, real steam engine and it was longer. Yet if you look past the lights you see a disorganized, dirty, cinder block and wooden patchwork reminiscent of road side carnivals.

One can go on and on about Disney quality and maintenance forever but all it takes is the ability to see and remember properly what Disney looked like years ago and know that what we see now is far superior to then. Yes, there are "maybe" more ride breakdowns then back when they were new and as far as cleanliness, even the messes made by those infamous rube tourists are minor and usually taken care of within a reasonable time frame.

Primarily I agree with you that pressure must be kept up to be sure that quality is maintained because it's possible that TDO or whatever management might visit a place like Dollywood and come back thinking that they have the Palace of Versailles here, and in a way they do. However, I find it incredibly snobbish to refer to people that may be of a less stellar background and less exposure to nice things, rubes. They are hard working people that have come to Disney for some fun and relaxation. They didn't come there to inspect the place from top to bottom. Fortunately, for Disney, that is the majority of their guests and for them they deliver what was promised. Since we all know that money is power, if they spend more then all you, get it together Disney or I'm going to whine until you do non-rubes, they won't care a tinkers damn about what think. The rubes spend lot's of money and Disney doesn't have to listen to constant dribble about how it was so much nicer back in the day. It wasn't! I know, I was there more than once in the old days. I saw it through adult eyes, not those of kids that will magnify every fun experience way beyond reality. They may have offered more "extras" then before but the numbers of guest were smaller and the ability to offer extras was a lot easier with smaller numbers.

Yes, they will run out of rubes eventually, but rubes tend to create little rubes in their spare time, so it won't be anytime soon, I'm thinking.
 

Cosmic Commando

Well-Known Member
butter beer is an example of a theme park making a quality drink that was mentioned about twice in the entire harry potter series..so theme parks have ways to be creative on things like this
It was in 5 of the 7 books and was on most every Potter fan's mind when it came to what they wanted to see in WWoHP. Not trying to troll, but there's nothing in Avatar or Star Wars like that.
 

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