Al Lutz: "Management must stop bending over to pick up pennies as dollars fly over their heads"

[TalkingHead]

You apparently dined with another MAGICal member (who I'll leave in anonymity unless he/she decides otherwise) ... and they also enjoyed the meal and the value. ... They also commented (as you did somewhere else) on the amazingly high quality SW holiday offerings, including the shows and right down to the napkins and bags (something that TDR would do and does, but WDW doesn't feel the need unless you're buying a $20 Mickey popcorn bucket!)

I just found it interesting that both of you were apparently at the exact same places at the same times and had the same observations ... although I do consider you both two of the saner voices around here.

I am sorry that you didn't get to experience the grandeur that, apparently, is the BoG restrooms!

What's even stranger is that I was with family at SW and solo at Uni! Whoever they are, sounds like we noticed a lot of the same things. Guess that means the Disney hate flows equally through our veins.

 

[TalkingHead]

Nope, it is not ... but why would execs who will be long gone with huge bank accounts care about the long term?
WDW is typical of American business in the 21st century -- you make the short term look great for Wall Street and CNBC talking heads and if the company is in the toilet (@TalkingHead) six years from now, who cares?

Nostalgia only works as a business plan when you have people who feel nostalgia for the place. One-time visitors don't have it and won't have it.

So Plan B is -- add as little as possible, raise prices, and let them pay to reserve potty times with Flynn and Rapunzel.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

I'm reasonably sure that the highest levels of both P&R and TWDC as a whole are too arrogant and cocky to realize this. There is a very misplaced 'tude that Disney can replace longtime guests like ... say ... us ... with rubes in a never-ending supply who will drop thousands in a week


Believe it or not, but WDW doesn't appeal to everyone (and didn't even when its quality was second to none). Not even close.

There is a certain irony hidden in these two statements. When WDW's quality was second to none, it's appeal was limited. When WDW's business culture changed to 'run it as cheaply as possible and exploit it to the last penny', it's appeal is...still limited. It didn't make any difference for WDW's appeal. The difference is that the latter model makes far more money.

It would appear that the highest levels of both P&R and TWDC are, in fact, not mistaken in their 'tude that discerning guests can be replaced by rubes who spend just as much.


WDW's once near-sophisticated experience has dumbed itself down to appeal to a dumber audience. They pay just as much but demand less. The ECV cart Walmart tourist has as much dollars, if not more, burning in his wallet to spend on turkey legs and Duffy plush as guests hoping for a more upscale experience.

 

[Kuhio]

Just spent the last couple days exploring SW and the Uni parks.

You know what? SW has hands-down the best Christmas decorations and shows in Orlando. Funny how I mentioned to one of the employees that they had far more decorations than Disney. Her response: "Really? You're the second person who's told me that today."

The ice-skating show at SW (Winter Wonderland was its name, I think) was fantastic. And that was only one of five or six Christmas shows they perform for day guests.

Apropos of nothing, SW had special napkins for their Christmas celebration ("Where the Season Meets the Sea" it says at the bottom).

What's even stranger is that I was with family at SW and solo at Uni! Whoever they are, sounds like we noticed a lot of the same things. Guess that means the Disney hate flows equally through our veins.

Our paths must have crossed at some point in the last couple of days. I just got home from 2 days at WDW, 3 days at USF/IoA, and a day at SW.

I saw all of the SW Christmas shows except for the Sesame Street one, and found all to be of high quality -- especially considering that the holiday offerings are not part of an upcharge event. The Sea of Trees was beautiful, and the fireworks/fountains finale was more moving and inspirational than Uni's Cinematic Spectacular, which wasn't bad, but did come off as one long commercial that didn't integrate the water screens well with the lasers and fountains.

SW's seasonal food offerings are great as well... the s'mores "cobbler" was delicious. Not only does SW have special napkins, but also special bags with the "Seasons Meets the Seas" logo. Moreover, the cups for hot chocolate in the Arctic section are specifically tied to the Polar Express overlay (which itself was a lot of fun, and much more than the simple film swap that I was expecting), and have a special "P.E." logo. As far as I could tell, only the cups at that particular location were themed as such... I can't imagine WDW having cups or napkins that are not only seasonal, but tied to a single locale or attraction.

SW got progressively busier starting in the mid-afternoon, and by evening it was packed. It wouldn't surprise me if the event has been increasingly popular with locals -- there really is a pervasive holiday feel and atmosphere there that you just don't get at the other Orlando parks.

I thought Universal's holiday offerings were pretty good too, though. I was impressed that an hour-long performance by Mannheim Steamroller was part of the Studios admission; I was expecting a 15-minute truncated "best of" concert, and was pleasantly surprised that they went all-out. The Grinchmas show at IoA also had high production values, but on the whole IoA seemed to have fewer holiday offerings than its sister park. (And Mythos is an amazing value as a sit-down theme park restaurant, even if its decor looks like it came out of a bad '70s B-movie fantasy.)

And to take this back to Disney... about the only thing that really blew me away at WDW was related to food and food venues. The pork shank at Gaston's was huge and tasty, and the braised pork at Be Our Guest was tender and flavorful -- honestly the most delicious thing I have ever eaten at the Magic Kingdom in over three decades of visits. (Hurry up and try it before Disney raises prices!) Be Our Guest is amazingly beautiful, with the only tiny blemish being the fact that the size and table layout of the ballroom dining area makes it feel a bit institutional -- like a large school dining hall or something.

Edited to add: the Lumiere animatronic is also pretty freakin' incredible. Too bad you have to go through Enchanted Tales with Belle to see it. (And what's with the name "Enchanted Tales"? The attraction only deals with one tale, not multiple possible stories -- although that would certainly make the experience somewhat more worthwhile.)

 

[andre85]

This is what you say. I recall reading something different. Maybe it wasn't in a column, but on the header notes he regularly puts up. Are those accessable? Did you read every day's notes?

I did and he never once followed-up.I 've been a daily reader of the site for the better part of a decade.

And what is his bias? What is your issue with him? ... That he knows what he's talking about? That he knows what a trainwreck WDW management is? That he favors his home resort that is run infinitely better? What exactly is your problem?

This conversation has turned it into something bigger than it really is. The entire thing started because someone there is nothing to show that Al has a "vendetta" against WDW. And while that might technically be true, I then posted "There is at least one I can think of that shows a clear bias," which is what started this whole mess with you. Anything beyond what I said there is you looking far too deep into things.

 

[ScoutN]

the fact that the size and table layout of the ballroom dining area makes it feel a bit institutional -- like a large school dining hall or something.

I was called crazy for saying that when the photos first came out. Glad(but not really at all) to hear others feel the same.

 

[Cosmic Commando]

Which is what? I forgot...

Oh...and this from Al on the same subject:

Yeah, that was the only problem I had with Al's ST 2.0 coverage was that he took TDO to task for not paying for minor updates to increase capacity, conveniently leaving out forgetting that DHS has 6 simulators in a park that gets 10 million people a year versus DL's 4 simulators for 15 million people per year.

 

[Virtual Toad]

Clearly, you HATE WDW!!! Why go?!?!

Stay home and the lines will be shorter for the rest of us!!! (OK, how was that?)

Well said

Actually, we are staying home. We may be evil "local" passholders to WDW, but we used to spend a ton of money at the place. Three full weeks staying on-property each year with the kids plus several "grown ups only" weekend stays.

Now the quality is severely diluted, prices are higher, Pleasure Island is gone (no more grown up trips) and the kids would rather go to Legoland.

And yes TDO, we might be "locals," but who do our relatives from up north ask for advice when planning their Florida vacations?

My nephews are coming to the Sunshine State soon and we're not taking them to WDW. We've seen the loss of quality and we're voting with our wallets. And we can't be the only former loyal customers that feel this way.

 

[lebeau]

Nostalgia only works as a business plan when you have people who feel nostalgia for the place. One-time visitors don't have it and won't have it.

So Plan B is -- add as little as possible, raise prices, and let them pay to reserve potty times with Flynn and Rapunzel.

Well, Flynn and Rapunzel won't be there. Flynn is way too popular to appear anywhere in the parks apparently. And Rapunzel will only meet in a spot where a ride used to be. But you can definitely do your business by the tower where she was held captive for most of her life. Can't wait for Maleficent's Dungeon Potties - coming in 2021.

 

[lebeau]

P.S. I still think "Ewok Village" could work instead of Avatarland at DAK. TDO, go for it!

Only if we are allowed to drop kick ewoks. If that's the case, I will spend an entire day there.

Let me whack Jar Jar with an over-sized mallet and I will never leave.

For the end of the night spectacluar, everyone gets to give George Lucas a swift kick in the pants and remind him that Han shot first, dummy.

 

[lebeau]

I'm sure Kodak once thought that way too.

Kodak was exactly the example that came to mind for me too.

 

[flynnibus]

Flynn is way too popular to appear anywhere in the parks apparently.

Correct - I always travel low key to keep the fanatics away...

And my next trip is to dlr anyways

 

[twebber55]

to me its seems a good executive would think "i want our product to improve everyday month and year and hope that the product/brand is better when they leave then when they started

whether your a CEO of a company or happen to be head high school football coach that would be my approach

 

[Goofyernmost]

I'm reasonably sure that the highest levels of both P&R and TWDC as a whole are too arrogant and cocky to realize this. There is a very misplaced 'tude that Disney can replace longtime guests like ... say ... us ... with rubes in a never-ending supply who will drop thousands in a week (as we have countless times) and be much easier to please because, for them, WDW has never been better. Believe it or not, but WDW doesn't appeal to everyone (and didn't even when its quality was second to none). Not even close.

Hey, Rubes is peoples too! Not to mention they spend more, complain less and take Pixie Dust intravenously. If it were me, that's who I would target as well. Everyone else can intellectualize at home listening to classical music and calling each other buffy!

There are over 300 Billion people in this planet, most of them "rubes". I don't think all of them have been yet. There are plenty to draw from and won't run out in the near future.

 

[fosse76]

Excellent points.

I do however have one but: '...but how would DHS have fared without ST2'?
DHS is the park most directly in the line of fire from UNI. For being the ost similar to the two UNI parks. Wouldn't DHS have suffered a massive blow if it hadn't had ST2 to mitigate the damage of the Potter assault?

I doubt it. Star Tours 2 opened almost a year AFTER Harry Potter. So any affects would've occured by then. And it opened on the first day of Star Wars weekends, when it bareley managed an hour wait. Disney clearly thought (deludedly) that they were going to have massive waits...they had additional queue space set-up in the Streets of America.

 

[fosse76]

You know I keep hearing this theory... but when can you recall seeing TV ads for WDW for a new attraction? heck, have you seen any TV ads for the new fantasyland? or TT2?

Yes. Go see a movie here in New York, and they have an ad for it. Every movie I've seen in the past month (and I see everything) has had the FLE ad.

 

[lebeau]

Hey, Rubes is peoples too! Not to mention they spend more, complain less and take Pixie Dust intravenously. If it were me, that's who I would target as well. Everyone else can intellectualize at home listening to classical music and calling each other buffy!

There are over 300 Billion people in this planet, most of them "rubes". I don't think all of them have been yet. There are plenty to draw from and won't run out in the near future.

Even "rubes" talk to each other. I hear non-fans complain about their once-in-a-lifetime trip all the time. Too expensive, the lines are too long, couldn't get a sit-down meal, why does Disney let people jump in line. Some complaints are more valid than others. But I am constantly hearing from people who tell me they will never go back to that place again.

If that experience becomes common enough, the rubes will eventually catch on. WDW will stop being a place everyone has to visit once in a lifetime. It will develop a reputation as a place to avoid. Hopefully the course is corrected before that happens. But to some extent, it is happening already.

I doubt it. Star Tours 2 opened almost a year AFTER Harry Potter. So any affects would've occured by then. And it opened on the first day of Star Wars weekends, when it bareley managed an hour wait. Disney clearly thought (deludedly) that they were going to have massive waits...they had additional queue space set-up in the Streets of America.

People vastly over-estimate the appeal of Star Wars and Star Tours in particular. I'm a Star Wars fan. I grew up on it. I have fond memories of seeing the original films in the theater and playing with my Kenner action figures. But outside of a rabid fanbase, it's just another popular film series.

Star Tours was a very dated ride. Disney brought it up to date which they should have done years before. Why did anyone think this was going to drive attendance? I don't understand why people see this as a missed opportunity. What was Disney supposed to advertise? That one attraction was no longer decades out of date?

Star Tours 2.0 is very nice. But it's still not worth planning a trip over.

 

[asianway]

I doubt it. Star Tours 2 opened almost a year AFTER Harry Potter. So any affects would've occured by then. And it opened on the first day of Star Wars weekends, when it bareley managed an hour wait. Disney clearly thought (deludedly) that they were going to have massive waits...they had additional queue space set-up in the Streets of America.

They actually did use that queue on day one-day two, not so much

 

[ULPO46]

I'm sure Kodak once thought that way too.

Yes but Kodak only lost it's flare because of the cell phone camera and the digital age. There are 7 billion people in th world. 7 billion ok. Lets say that about 3 billion or so are able to make it to any of the Disney parks around. Hong Kong, Tokyo, Paris, Orlando, Anaheim, the cruise line, and coming soon Shanghai. If each one of those people which according to many sources over 2.5 billion people have made it through the gates of disney parks since the first one in California spent 100 dollars, imagine the amount of money it's brought Disney. And to some people who are forgetting. Disney makes movies, billion dollar movies now that they own Marvel. They make TV programs, ABC, ESPN, and hundreds of companies. At current inflation and market capacity the Walt Disney Co. is over 80 billion dollars. Making Disney a fortune 500 company. Not even tools or mining companies get that close. They are one of the largest entertainment company in the world in terms of revenue and money it makes. So the parks dwindle. Wow not at any other locations around the world. Merlin entertainment is #2 after Disney. Universal and Seaworld don't even make as much money as Disney parks make. Numbers compute and espicially when you know were to look. Tell me have you ever been to any other Disney parks world wide and seen the crowds that are in those?

 

[TalkingHead]

Our paths must have crossed at some point in the last couple of days. I just got home from 2 days at WDW, 3 days at USF/IoA, and a day at SW.

Sounds like a nice trip -- I was only there for a few days, staying with family. Have a Uni AP and lucked into the SW tickets. I wrote some comments on the SeaWorld section of the board, but since no one checks there, I'll chime in here.

I saw all of the SW Christmas shows except for the Sesame Street one, and found all to be of high quality -- especially considering that the holiday offerings are not part of an upcharge event. The Sea of Trees was beautiful, and the fireworks/fountains finale was more moving and inspirational than Uni's Cinematic Spectacular, which wasn't bad, but did come off as one long commercial that didn't integrate the water screens well with the lasers and fountains.

We only got around to seeing four of the shows, but I agree with you -- the Sea of Trees was the big surprise for me. I thought they integrated the trees and fountains very well into the fireworks show, too. Clyde and Seymour's Christmas Show was great. The mime who does the preshow is a wonderful entertainer. I remember seeing him a couple years ago and thinking the same thing. And the Winter Wonderland ice-skating show was probably the highlight for me. Just a very unique offering for a theme park.

SW's seasonal food offerings are great as well... the s'mores "cobbler" was delicious. Not only does SW have special napkins, but also special bags with the "Seasons Meets the Seas" logo. Moreover, the cups for hot chocolate in the Arctic section are specifically tied to the Polar Express overlay (which itself was a lot of fun, and much more than the simple film swap that I was expecting), and have a special "P.E." logo. As far as I could tell, only the cups at that particular location were themed as such... I can't imagine WDW having cups or napkins that are not only seasonal, but tied to a single locale or attraction.

Had the s'mores cobbler, too. A good snack to share. Also liked the Polar Express and was surprised by how much effort they put into it. The doors in the loading area are made to look like a train, and overhead they've hung branches to give the area a forested feel.

SW got progressively busier starting in the mid-afternoon, and by evening it was packed. It wouldn't surprise me if the event has been increasingly popular with locals -- there really is a pervasive holiday feel and atmosphere there that you just don't get at the other Orlando parks.

Wouldn't surprise me, either. My family agreed we would go to SW if we were looking for a Christmas experience. Candlelight at Epcot is a great show, but it's such a hassle with the show always filling up and the park has such few offerings otherwise, that it's not something I'd want to do every year.

I can't stress enough how decorated the park is. There are garland, ornaments, lights everywhere. It feels like everything that can be decorated, is. There's a sign near the photo shop at the entrance with a bunch of penguins. They were decorated with Santa hats and scarves. The counter-service place we had dinner had a Christmas tree inside, garland around the room, and decorations around the ordering area. And Christmas music playing.

I thought Universal's holiday offerings were pretty good too, though. I was impressed that an hour-long performance by Mannheim Steamroller was part of the Studios admission; I was expecting a 15-minute truncated "best of" concert, and was pleasantly surprised that they went all-out. The Grinchmas show at IoA also had high production values, but on the whole IoA seemed to have fewer holiday offerings than its sister park. (And Mythos is an amazing value as a sit-down theme park restaurant, even if its decor looks like it came out of a bad '70s B-movie fantasy.)

I was disappointed with IoA's decorations, which are almost entirely relegated to Seuss. Now, Seuss Landing looks excellent, but seems like there's so much potential in the other Islands, that it feels like a missed opportunity. I thought the Grinchmas show was fine -- high production values, yes. But I'm also not a fan of the Jim Carrey Grinch movie, so that probably factored into my feelings. And the Whoville people just look strange. The actors were definitely engaging, but there's just something about those noses. I thought Clyde and Seymour at SW was far more entertaining.

But the Studios park had decent decorations around the New York section, and the big Macy's-like balloons scattered around the park. Christmas music playing there, too. I liked the parade -- the man standing next to me seemed to really like the candy-cane girls. Who could blame him?

Not related to Christmas offerings, but Turtle Trek at SW was a lot of fun. Cool to see new technology/experience in Orlando. Trek had a distinctive EPCOT/Living Seas vibe, even down to the background music in the queue. The Sky Tower is now included with park admission, not sure when that change was made. Enjoyed going up and looking for the Uni and Disney landmarks on the horizon.

And Manta -- such a fun ride. Very interested to see how Antarctica turns out. Judging by the construction walls, it has a huge footprint in the park.