A sequel? Nah, not this one

Heppenheimer

Well-Known Member
So why not just base the damn thing in Norway to begin with? Norway was part of Sweden during the period where it looks the movies take place, so just make Elsa a Grand-Duchess, or something immediately below the rank of Queen.

I'm over-thinking this. Its a fictional country that although it vaguely resembles 19th century Norway, it clearly isn't, no matter what a short says about "canon". Norway is a real place, Arandelle is not.
 

Brer Panther

Well-Known Member
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So why not just base the damn thing in Norway to begin with? Norway was part of Sweden during the period where it looks the movies take place, so just make Elsa a Grand-Duchess, or something immediately below the rank of Queen.
Grand Duchesses don't sell toys as well as queens or princesses.
 

MisterPenguin

Rumormonger
Premium Member
The people who made Frozen the Movie went to Norway to troll as much Norwegian art and architecture and fashion into the move to make it as Norwegian as possible (given that it's a fantasy setting). They didn't go to all the Nordic/Scandanavian countries... just Norway.

But because they didn't explicitly say in the movie that the kingdom of Arendelle eventually becomes part of our reality's Norway a century later, then that is all that's needed for some to declare that Arendelle is proved to be beyond all dispute to not be located in Norway.

It would be like if no one in Ghostbuster said "New York City" would be enough proof to show that Ghostbusters didn't take place in NYC.

So let's bring back Maelstrom whose mythic elements (Odin, trolls) and historical elements (vikings) are not specifically Norwegian. That'll fix everything. At least the ride will have authentic Norwegian oil rigs.
 

Jrb1979

Well-Known Member
The people who made Frozen the Movie went to Norway to troll as much Norwegian art and architecture and fashion into the move to make it as Norwegian as possible (given that it's a fantasy setting). They didn't go to all the Nordic/Scandanavian countries... just Norway.

But because they didn't explicitly say in the movie that the kingdom of Arendelle eventually becomes part of our reality's Norway a century later, then that is all that's needed for some to declare that Arendelle is proved to be beyond all dispute to not be located in Norway.

It would be like if no one in Ghostbuster said "New York City" would be enough proof to show that Ghostbusters didn't take place in NYC.

So let's bring back Maelstrom whose mythic elements (Odin, trolls) and historical elements (vikings) are not specifically Norwegian. That'll fix everything. At least the ride will have authentic Norwegian oil rigs.
I would be all for them bringing back Maelstrom as it's not an IP based ride and fit Norway more then some fictitious talking snowman does. It saddens me to see Lex Luthor and Iger destroy Disney with making it IP centric. Its part of why I love places like Cedar Point a lot more. I'm not bombarded with IP everywhere.
 

MisterPenguin

Rumormonger
Premium Member
I would be all for them bringing back Maelstrom as it's not an IP based ride and fit Norway more then some fictitious talking snowman does. It saddens me to see Lex Luthor and Iger destroy Disney with making it IP centric. Its part of why I love places like Cedar Point a lot more. I'm not bombarded with IP everywhere.

You missed the point that it doesn't fit Norway more. The mythological elements are not specific to Norway. Oil rigs are not specific to Norwary. Vikings aren't specific to Norway. They had to add a documentary film to the ride to make the connection to Norway.

See, that's the thing about Epcot's edutainment rides... not very educative. And sure, there are some things that are true facts, but when you fold in useless or plain wrong facts... it gets a failing grade.
 

Jrb1979

Well-Known Member
You missed the point that it doesn't fit Norway more. The mythological elements are not specific to Norway. Oil rigs are not specific to Norwary. Vikings aren't specific to Norway. They had to add a documentary film to the ride to make the connection to Norway.

See, that's the thing about Epcot's edutainment rides... not very educative. And sure, there are some things that are true facts, but when you fold in useless or plain wrong facts... it gets a failing grade.
Then they should updated Maelstrom to fit Normal instead of shoehorning in a fictitious snowman. Its my biggest issue with how Lex Luthor and Iger have run the parks. Trying to shoehorn IP in places it doesn't fit. Changing Splash Mountain that fit Frontier land to a princess that is based in Louisiana is a great example. They should have updated Future world with new original attractions instead they decide to shoehorn in more IP with Guardians. When I look at Disney now with being bombarded with IP I think of all Six Flags parks and being bombarded with advertising on everything in the park.
 

aladdin2007

Well-Known Member
You missed the point that it doesn't fit Norway more. The mythological elements are not specific to Norway. Oil rigs are not specific to Norwary. Vikings aren't specific to Norway. They had to add a documentary film to the ride to make the connection to Norway.

See, that's the thing about Epcot's edutainment rides... not very educative. And sure, there are some things that are true facts, but when you fold in useless or plain wrong facts... it gets a failing grade.

maybe Im misunderstanding but nothing they used in the original pavilion or ride was useless or wrong facts, all of those elements are very much a part of Norway's history and culture. They may not be specific to only Norway (though trolls are more to Norwegian than to the other Scandinavian countries except maybe Iceland) but they were still a huge part of it, and all of it was presented well for its time. It just needed updating which unfortunately never got a chance to happen even after various attempts and sides tried.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
I know you’re just making a point, but do you really think Disney’s actions the last few years have been in reaction to just a small vocal minority? I’ve been in all the Splash threads and the old PC Pirates changes threads and the “5th Key” thread- I know there are a lot of folks here who seem to think that Disney reacts to complaints from a few haters and ignores the input from the faithful majority.

But that doesn’t make sense to me. How would it help Disney to anger their biggest supporters just to pander to a few?

It seems to me that either:
  1. There are a LOT more people upset about these things than most here know about and Disney is trying to appease this audience, OR
  2. Disney is pursuing it’s own agenda and is willing to risk alienating their core audience to do it.
Thoughts?

It’s definitely #2. The evidence has piled up in favour of it.

Disney is a mega corporation, and as it continues to grow, people are going to continue to criticize them simply because they are a mega corporation. Most people I know hate Disney for this fact alone. So they are going to do what’s simple and easy to get themselves a bit of good press.

Does that mean occasionally taking advantage of more serious situations? Of course it does, but if they do it in the right way, nobody is going to catch on or care.

They will cut the fat where they see necessary. To some of us, the “fat” is something we love about Disney. But it really doesn’t matter what a small group of hardcore fans think. That doesn’t pay the bills. Usually not, anyways.

While we can certainly argue that "Inclusion" should fall under "Courtesy", the biggest take away here should be that if legacy Disney attractions (or any Disney attractions) make people uncomfortable than Disney is going to react. Why should anyone feel "less than" when they visit a Disney park? There's also the huge issue of representation in the parks. It's why Tiana was such a big deal in the first place.

I think this is a slam dunk in Disneyland but wish they would come up with a better thematic tie for Florida. They also can't skimp on any of this.


#2

IP all day because it sells toys. :)

BTW, I shopped at a Disney Store in-person for the first time in years (not including World of Disney), and WOW! the quality has gone downhill. But the store was at Covid capacity with a queue stretching into the mall, and people were buying tons of stuffed animals and toys for their kids. Very little looked like something you couldn’t pick up at Target or Kohl’s. The quality is poor and generic, but as long as people buy it, the Iger/Chapek version of Disney will eschew the company’s heritage and pursue the toy sales. That’s just how corporations work. I’m not happy about it, but I’ve accepted it.

You may have a self fulfilling prophecy here. It's very likely that you are a larger Disney fan than anyone in that line, yet you didn't feel a reason to visit a Disney Store. For me personally, when I'm shopping in the parks I'm apt to buy subtle apparel and items at the Art of Disney. However, when my daughter is old enough, I'm guessing I will be in line with the masses buying the cheap toys and plush.

You missed the point that it doesn't fit Norway more. The mythological elements are not specific to Norway. Oil rigs are not specific to Norwary. Vikings aren't specific to Norway. They had to add a documentary film to the ride to make the connection to Norway.

See, that's the thing about Epcot's edutainment rides... not very educative. And sure, there are some things that are true facts, but when you fold in useless or plain wrong facts... it gets a failing grade.
Personally, I'm ok with the story treatment for the meet and greet. If that's all they did, I'd be on board. My objection with Frozen Ever After is two fold. Frozen as a franchise deserved an E-ticket attraction in Fantasyland and Norway deserved something that's a bit more culturally relevant. Frozen Ever After accomplishes neither of those things. It's a perfectly adequate attraction, in the wrong location with insufficient capacity.
 
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DoleWhipDrea

Well-Known Member
Psssst. World Market imports Jul Must at the beginning of Christmas merch. Anyone who wants it needs to buy a bottle immediately since it sells out fast.

I love World Showcase for the same reasons you listed. It’s disheartening to see Disney dumb it down instead of build it up with thrilling attractions that don’t require cartoons (of course I’m thinking about Mt. Fuji). I’ve also traveled around the world, and Epcot scratches a lot of itches when you’re in the States.

Also, since I keep seeing people repeat an erroneous Internet myth, I’ll address it here: Disney never pretended WS was a substitute for the real thing. It was never supposed to be. World Showcase was intended to offer tastes of historic culture and to spur tourism to the real countries.
Thanks for the tip!!! I do love visiting World Market for certain Swedish items I can’t find easily. I’ve probably always come by the time they’re sold out.

And thank you for addressing the myth! To my knowledge, the only time Disney Parks tried to be a replacement location for travel was Disney California Adventure...and we all know how well that turned out.

Have either of you tried IKEA VINTERSAGA? I enjoyed it when I had it a year or so ago and I've been told that it's basically Julmust. I'm sure it's not as good as the real thing but its easily available in the US so I'd be interested to hear your take on it.

Yeah, I’ve tried it. My best description would be buying a shasta over a coke. I’ll do it if it’s my only option but it’s just not the same. They used to sell the real thing, then started making their own branded knock-off stuff.
Yup. Maybe that rumor persists because the World's Fairs that Disney used as the model for Epcot have now begun to fade from public memory. Nobody who attended the 1964 World's Fair in Flushing Meadows would have likely assumed that visiting, for example, the Swedish pavilion and eating some meatballs would have shown them all they need to know about the country. The intention was to whet the appetite for actually visiting the real country (although given the state of Swedish cuisine at the time, maybe "appetite" is not a good metaphor).
Hey, now, as a half-Swede, I have to say our food is pretty fantastic! Meats, salmon, potatoes and cheeses. With a side of lingonberries. You can’t go wrong ;)
I know you’re just making a point, but do you really think Disney’s actions the last few years have been in reaction to just a small vocal minority? I’ve been in all the Splash threads and the old PC Pirates changes threads and the “5th Key” thread- I know there are a lot of folks here who seem to think that Disney reacts to complaints from a few haters and ignores the input from the faithful majority.

But that doesn’t make sense to me. How would it help Disney to anger their biggest supporters just to pander to a few?

It seems to me that either:
  1. There are a LOT more people upset about these things than most here know about and Disney is trying to appease this audience, OR
  2. Disney is pursuing it’s own agenda and is willing to risk alienating their core audience to do it.
Thoughts?
Most people on this board are going to say 2 because of how they are set in their ways. The reality is probably both. I can tell you that not all Disney Parks fans feel the same way about these changes. This board often becomes an echo chamber, and anyone that attempts to have an intelligent conversation about what’s considered appropriate or not today is often mercilessly attacked, without any reasonable exchange. It’s why I don’t bother with most of those discussions. I have enough stress in my life already.
maybe Im misunderstanding but nothing they used in the original pavilion or ride was useless or wrong facts, all of those elements are very much a part of Norway's history and culture. They may not be specific to only Norway (though trolls are more to Norwegian than to the other Scandinavian countries except maybe Iceland) but they were still a huge part of it, and all of it was presented well for its time. It just needed updating which unfortunately never got a chance to happen even after various attempts and sides tried.
Scandinavia mostly shares similar heritage, stories and folklore. Trolls and vikings are a major thing for all of those countries.

The pavilion had needed updating for a long time. I still maintain that the original attraction the Imagineers wanted to build would have been far more interesting than Maelstrom, which would have leaned more into the folklore. Disney attractions need to be allowed to really explore the fantastical...that’s where they really succeed.


Frozen was always technically set in Norway (though the team did actually visit a few different Scandinavian countries for research.) They ultimately went with Norway because of the fjords. Fictional stories are often based in the real world, and generally to help reinforce certain ideas and themes in a story. Yes, Arendelle isn’t a real place, and Elsa is a fictional character, but Arendelle and Elsa with her ice powers are grounded in the setting that is Norway.

If the UK Pavilion had gotten its A Christmas Carol ride, would we be splitting hairs about that version of London being fake and Scrooge not being a historical person, with ghosts that aren’t real trying toget him to turn his life around?

I know that people gripe about what’s popular, and it’s hard to see a favorite ride replaced, but plans for World Showcase attractions were never intended to be completely nonfiction. I can’t tell you how many excited little kids I’ve seen walking up to the pavilion bursting at the seams to see Elsa and Anna.

The key to it all is balance in the parks. That’s the harder thing, but having some loved IP is good, too.
 
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FigmentFan82

Well-Known Member
You missed the point that it doesn't fit Norway more. The mythological elements are not specific to Norway. Oil rigs are not specific to Norwary. Vikings aren't specific to Norway. They had to add a documentary film to the ride to make the connection to Norway.

See, that's the thing about Epcot's edutainment rides... not very educative. And sure, there are some things that are true facts, but when you fold in useless or plain wrong facts... it gets a failing grade.
And Dutch bathrooms!
 

Brer Oswald

Well-Known Member
You missed the point that it doesn't fit Norway more. The mythological elements are not specific to Norway. Oil rigs are not specific to Norwary. Vikings aren't specific to Norway. They had to add a documentary film to the ride to make the connection to Norway.

See, that's the thing about Epcot's edutainment rides... not very educative. And sure, there are some things that are true facts, but when you fold in useless or plain wrong facts... it gets a failing grade.
I always hated Maelstrom. Always. Ask my dad. He had to physically drag me on it.
I’m not sure if Frozen is a better ride or not. It would probably fit Fantasyland better, but I’m also of the unique opinion that the older Disney films fit Fantasyland better than the newer films.
 

kenny279

Active Member
Then they should updated Maelstrom to fit Normal instead of shoehorning in a fictitious snowman. Its my biggest issue with how Lex Luthor and Iger have run the parks. Trying to shoehorn IP in places it doesn't fit. Changing Splash Mountain that fit Frontier land to a princess that is based in Louisiana is a great example. They should have updated Future world with new original attractions instead they decide to shoehorn in more IP with Guardians. When I look at Disney now with being bombarded with IP I think of all Six Flags parks and being bombarded with advertising on everything in the park.
It is not shoehorned in at Disneyland. While it is in critter country, it sits next to The Haunted Mansion, which is part of New Orleans Square. They are just expanding New Orleans square to include Splash, which does make Pooh stand out as out of place as the only remaining attraction in Critter Country along with Hungry Bear quick service.
 

_caleb

Well-Known Member
It is not shoehorned in at Disneyland. While it is in critter country, it sits next to The Haunted Mansion, which is part of New Orleans Square. They are just expanding New Orleans square to include Splash, which does make Pooh stand out as out of place as the only remaining attraction in Critter Country along with Hungry Bear quick service.
Expect a Winnie-the-Pooh animated short retconning the Hundred-Acre Wood to be just outside the French Quarter.
 

HarperRose

Member
I always hated Maelstrom. Always. Ask my dad. He had to physically drag me on it.
I’m not sure if Frozen is a better ride or not. It would probably fit Fantasyland better, but I’m also of the unique opinion that the older Disney films fit Fantasyland better than the newer films.
Frozen is the same ride.
 
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