A sequel? Nah, not this one

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
So you don't take issue with Aladdin in the Morocco pavilion?
Less of a problem. Themed entertainment is storytelling and it makes sense for World Showcase to include stories from the people’s of the world. My preference is towards myth, legend and folklore over the writings of a single author, but time also gives a single author more weight. Stories that are Disney’s creation and set there (especially for a joke) I see as having no place in World Showcase. Things get murky with Disney’s adaptions. At a minimum there is a convenience to using Disney’s character design, typically because as folklore they lacked a very specific image and it wouldn’t make sense to have a second look, which would have to be explained, that is still Disney designed. The murkiness really comes from the changes that occur as part of the adaptation process, at what point is the adaptation so far removed from the source that it’s really a separate thing? At what point does focusing too much on Disney’s adaptations undermine the actual notion of celebrating world cultures?

Aladdin definitely sits in that murkiness not just because of the changes from the source material but also the questions surrounding the story’s origin. But let’s say the movie was a more faithful adaptation and we more conclusive evidence of the story being of Arab origin. Then it would definitely belong in an Arab pavilion even though the setting of this hypothetical movie is now China.
 

tirian

Well-Known Member
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So you don't take issue with Aladdin in the Morocco pavilion?

I agree that Morocco is culturally near to other Arab countries. The Kingdom of Agrabah, however, seems to reflect a broad range of influences (including a bit from South Asia, such as the architecture of the palace and the tiger, Rajah).

I think it would be interesting if Disney would create meet and greet areas themed to fictional places in-between the World Showcase pavilions. Agrabah, Arendelle, 100-Acre Woods, etc. This would help maintain some of the thematic integrity of the pavilions while also creating thematic transitions- Agrabah would fit perfectly in between Morocco and a new India pavilion.
Those places are called Disneyland and the Magic Kingdom. ;)

It’s the old-school creative approach to building castle-park lands: inspired by, and evocative of, various real-life cultures and locales, while blended together into a high-concept idea of the thing.

As Tolkien and Lewis once discussed, an idea of something can be more real than describing the object itself. (The answer to “What is a tree?” involves more than roots, branches, leaves, or even the word tree.)
 
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_caleb

Well-Known Member
Those places are called Disneyland and the Magic Kingdom. ;)

It’s the old-school creative approach to building castle-park lands: inspired by, and evocative of, various real-life cultures and locales, while blended together into a high-concept idea of the thing. As Tolkien and Lewis once discussed, an idea of something can be more real than the object itself. (“What is a tree?”)
I get that. It just seems like in a Castle Park, we get “Beast’s Castle and Gaston’s Tavern” rather than “Belle’s France.” There’s Peter Pan in Fantasyland, but there isn’t a Neverland. Pinocchio, but not Pleasure Island (still too soon?). Alice, but no Wonderland.

In World Showcase, it’s like visiting with a cultural delegation or embassy of official representatives or something (maybe that’s just me). It seems like “the board of tourism brings you a taste of Olympus (Hercules)“ would be out of place in MK, but might fit in an IP-ified WS (which I’m not a fan of, BTW).

Again, maybe I’m seeing a difference others don’t make.
 

Disnutz311

Disney World Purist
Premium Member
So... I am going to weigh in on this one and some people will hate this and others might like it and others will still want a thrill ride in World Showcase no matter what, but times are a changing and we can hold on to what we believe in but have to be flexible of the future.

Now I am a die hard EPCOT 80's kid. I loved learning about everything I could in that park with regards to new tech, innovation, and travel. Internet, Cheaper Airfare, WiFi, and the future changed all that. As others have said this changed everything. You now can fly from the US to Japan for $800 which is cheaper than Disney World in a lot of cases. World Showcase was awesome because of the entertainers, shows, and ambiance. You don't have that anymore. Thanks budget cuts. So, how do we appeal to the new Disney way, families, and purists.

Let Disney continue what they are doing to World Showcase. I did not drink the Kool Aid, I just progressed. Have amazing rides & experiences for everyone and especially families. My 7 year old is bored by WS even with my history/architecture/EPCOT lessons

Mexico - CoCo
Norway - Frozen
China - Mulan
Germany - ??
Italy - Luca (If the 2021 film is a success)
American Adventure (Muppets, but in a new addition
Japan - Big Hero Six (Yes I know it's San Frantokyo, but liberties)
Morocco - Aladdin (Liberties like Frozen)
France - Rat
United Kingdom - Poppins
Canada - ?? Martin Short Ride?

African Outpost can become Greece with the Greek Isles and use the water canal to create Santorini. Put a Hercules ride in.
Build Brazil with the Three Caballeros
Build Thailand with Jungle Book
Build Russia with Black Widow (Just Kidding)

Keep architecture, realism, immersive environments, shows, food etc. But then have something for the younger fans to love. For families to love. Step in a dark building and escape to fantasy. It's ok. You'll be just fine.
 

MisterPenguin

Rumormonger
Premium Member
Just chiming in to second that Aladdin is far less appropriate for Morocco than Frozen is for Norway. Morocco is located on the west coast of Northern Africa and nowhere near “Arabia,” which is a featured detail in the opening of the film.

Aladdin's story as Middle-Eastern has a few holes: one being that it takes place in China, after that initial place-setting, there is nothing in the story that would confirm either a Chinese or Middle-Eastern place-setting, and, it may not even be a traditional Middle-Eastern tale to begin with since it was added to One Thousand and One Nights by a European by way of a Syrian story-teller and there are no pre-existing evidence of the story.


It doesn't take place in Norway. A fictional old magical kingdom isn't Norway, regardless of its inspiration.

Many modern European nations were once made up of smaller kingdoms, sort of like states or counties. E.g., the Kingdom of Wessex in Great Britain.

A "Kingdom of Arendelle" is not necessarily the whole nation of Norway as far as modern boundaries go. Everything we've seen of Arendelle makes it more like a city-state.

And being fictional doesn't mean it can't be firmly identified as being part of an identifiable state or country. Gotham is in the U.S. Brigadoon is in Scotland.
 

180º

Well-Known Member
The obsession with location of setting in nonsensical. Many stories associated with a particular culture take place elsewhere. Morocco may not be physically in or adjacent to Arabia but it is culturally part of the Arab world, is a member of the Arab League and its people are largely Muslim Arab-Berbers.
I’m not one of the people asking why there’s a Swiss mountain right next to Main Street USA. It’s all so subjective, but Aladdin just always felt so specifically middle-eastern geographically to me, and the film’s presence in the Morocco pavilion seemed like more of a stretch than, say, Mulan in the China pavilion or even Elsa in Norway. I’m not about to obsess over it, but your point is well taken.

This reminds me of the France Pavilion debate, with some arguing which of Beauty and the Beast or Ratatouille is the more appropriate fit. (I’m team Ratatouille, fwiw.)
 

DoleWhipDrea

Well-Known Member
World Showcase has always needed more rides, and that’s it’s ultimate problem. Disney really bungled themselves assuming all these countries would invest millions into their park, as they’ve continued to bungle EPCOT’s growth.

Yes, travel is technically easier today (pandemic aside), but as noted earlier, Americans don’t take the time off needed to really explore and enjoy a vacation at a destination that’s far away...mainly because businesses don’t guarantee time off for all employees to take one. And even if you can cobble together vacation time, most employers don’t want you gone longer than a week. This is why a lot of Americans don’t actually fly internationally. It’s not that we don’t want to (though truthfully there are also plenty of Americans that claim they have no interest in traveling internationally), but there’s a lot of hurdles to cross and not everyone can afford to do that. But that’s why World Showcase is so important. I can’t afford my dream trip to Japan right now, but I can get a taste at the pavilion and it can help me think more about what I may want to see and do. A family member will be having a destination wedding in Morocco, and I’ve been trying to make a point to look around that pavilion more as part of my research, as it will be my first time there.

As someone with actual Scandinavian heritage, I have overall enjoyed and appreciated Frozen as a franchise and how it illustrates actual traditions from Norway and Scandinavia as a whole (I think a lot of people are generally ignorant about these references in circles like this, which is a shame.) In a perfect world, I wish Maelstrom and FEA could have co-existed at the pavilion, but the ride still has elements that pays tributes to Norway, and there’s still quality things to see at the pavilion that aren’t tied to Frozen at all. In fact, I was delighted to find artifacts that had been donated by the local museum to where my grandfather lives! And during the holidays, when I’m missing my family more than ever, the decor put up, along with the show, and selling the very hard to find Jul Must (an exclusively Christmas soda that is impossible to find in the states) brings joyful tears to my eyes.

Honestly... I love World Showcase. I am immensely frustrated that they only have two rides and a few films out of that entire area. But I love the architecture and enjoy just wandering around enjoying the sights (btw, the interiors of Vegas casinos like the Venetian and Paris do not hold a candle to World Showcase, and if you think otherwise, all I can say is that you probably weren’t sober in that assessment!) I like to try the different foods and drinks, festival or not. I had one of the best steaks of my life at Le Cellier. I can actually get French pastries that taste like they did on my trip from my teens...and I’ve gone on a quest to get that itch scratched.
 

Heppenheimer

Well-Known Member
Those places are called Disneyland and the Magic Kingdom. ;)

It’s the old-school creative approach to building castle-park lands: inspired by, and evocative of, various real-life cultures and locales, while blended together into a high-concept idea of the thing. As Tolkien and Lewis once discussed, an idea of something can be more real than the object itself. (“What is a tree?”)
Would that be "Leaf By ****le"?

EDIT: Jeez, autocensor won't let me type the name of a Tolkien story that has no linguistic relationship to a certain racial slur?
 

Heppenheimer

Well-Known Member
And I'll just say this... its a little depressing that Disney thinks that its largely US-based audience has so little desire to learn about foreign lands that they need to dress up the pavilions in their own IP. And if this is true, then that's depressing for the US in general.

Visiting the Norway pavilion when I was 12 infused me with a life-long desire to visit the real country, which I finally realized several times in my 30s. I daresay that if I was 12 today, the Frozen-infused theme of the pavilion likely would not have the same effect.
 

britain

Well-Known Member
And I'll just say this... its a little depressing that Disney thinks that its largely US-based audience has so little desire to learn about foreign lands that they need to dress up the pavilions in their own IP. And if this is true, then that's depressing for the US in general.

Visiting the Norway pavilion when I was 12 infused me with a life-long desire to visit the real country, which I finally realized several times in my 30s. I daresay that if I was 12 today, the Frozen-infused theme of the pavilion likely would not have the same effect.

WDW has become as expensive as an international vacation over the past 20 years. The real thing is just as attainable/unattainable now.
 

tirian

Well-Known Member
World Showcase has always needed more rides, and that’s it’s ultimate problem. Disney really bungled themselves assuming all these countries would invest millions into their park, as they’ve continued to bungle EPCOT’s growth.

Yes, travel is technically easier today (pandemic aside), but as noted earlier, Americans don’t take the time off needed to really explore and enjoy a vacation at a destination that’s far away...mainly because businesses don’t guarantee time off for all employees to take one. And even if you can cobble together vacation time, most employers don’t want you gone longer than a week. This is why a lot of Americans don’t actually fly internationally. It’s not that we don’t want to (though truthfully there are also plenty of Americans that claim they have no interest in traveling internationally), but there’s a lot of hurdles to cross and not everyone can afford to do that. But that’s why World Showcase is so important. I can’t afford my dream trip to Japan right now, but I can get a taste at the pavilion and it can help me think more about what I may want to see and do. A family member will be having a destination wedding in Morocco, and I’ve been trying to make a point to look around that pavilion more as part of my research, as it will be my first time there.

As someone with actual Scandinavian heritage, I have overall enjoyed and appreciated Frozen as a franchise and how it illustrates actual traditions from Norway and Scandinavia as a whole (I think a lot of people are generally ignorant about these references in circles like this, which is a shame.) In a perfect world, I wish Maelstrom and FEA could have co-existed at the pavilion, but the ride still has elements that pays tributes to Norway, and there’s still quality things to see at the pavilion that aren’t tied to Frozen at all. In fact, I was delighted to find artifacts that had been donated by the local museum to where my grandfather lives! And during the holidays, when I’m missing my family more than ever, the decor put up, along with the show, and selling the very hard to find Jul Must (an exclusively Christmas soda that is impossible to find in the states) brings joyful tears to my eyes.

Honestly... I love World Showcase. I am immensely frustrated that they only have two rides and a few films out of that entire area. But I love the architecture and enjoy just wandering around enjoying the sights (btw, the interiors of Vegas casinos like the Venetian and Paris do not hold a candle to World Showcase, and if you think otherwise, all I can say is that you probably weren’t sober in that assessment!) I like to try the different foods and drinks, festival or not. I had one of the best steaks of my life at Le Cellier. I can actually get French pastries that taste like they did on my trip from my teens...and I’ve gone on a quest to get that itch scratched.
Psssst. World Market imports Jul Must at the beginning of Christmas merch. Anyone who wants it needs to buy a bottle immediately since it sells out fast.

I love World Showcase for the same reasons you listed. It’s disheartening to see Disney dumb it down instead of build it up with thrilling attractions that don’t require cartoons (of course I’m thinking about Mt. Fuji). I’ve also traveled around the world, and Epcot scratches a lot of itches when you’re in the States.

Also, since I keep seeing people repeat an erroneous Internet myth, I’ll address it here: Disney never pretended WS was a substitute for the real thing. It was never supposed to be. World Showcase was intended to offer tastes of historic culture and to spur tourism to the real countries.
 

Mike730

Well-Known Member
Psssst. World Market imports Jul Must at the beginning of Christmas merch. Anyone who wants it needs to buy a bottle immediately since it sells out fas

I love World Showcase for the same reasons you listed. It’s disheartening to see Disney dumb it down instead of build it up with thrilling attractions that don’t require cartoons (of course I’m thinking about Mt. Fuji). I’ve also traveled around the world, and Epcot scratches a lot of itches when you’re in the States.

Also, since I keep seeing people repeat an erroneous Internet myth, I’ll address it here: Disney never pretended WS was a substitute for the real thing. It was never supposed to be. World Showcase was intended to offer tastes of historic culture and to spur tourism to the real countries.
World Showcase has always needed more rides, and that’s it’s ultimate problem. Disney really bungled themselves assuming all these countries would invest millions into their park, as they’ve continued to bungle EPCOT’s growth.

Yes, travel is technically easier today (pandemic aside), but as noted earlier, Americans don’t take the time off needed to really explore and enjoy a vacation at a destination that’s far away...mainly because businesses don’t guarantee time off for all employees to take one. And even if you can cobble together vacation time, most employers don’t want you gone longer than a week. This is why a lot of Americans don’t actually fly internationally. It’s not that we don’t want to (though truthfully there are also plenty of Americans that claim they have no interest in traveling internationally), but there’s a lot of hurdles to cross and not everyone can afford to do that. But that’s why World Showcase is so important. I can’t afford my dream trip to Japan right now, but I can get a taste at the pavilion and it can help me think more about what I may want to see and do. A family member will be having a destination wedding in Morocco, and I’ve been trying to make a point to look around that pavilion more as part of my research, as it will be my first time there.

As someone with actual Scandinavian heritage, I have overall enjoyed and appreciated Frozen as a franchise and how it illustrates actual traditions from Norway and Scandinavia as a whole (I think a lot of people are generally ignorant about these references in circles like this, which is a shame.) In a perfect world, I wish Maelstrom and FEA could have co-existed at the pavilion, but the ride still has elements that pays tributes to Norway, and there’s still quality things to see at the pavilion that aren’t tied to Frozen at all. In fact, I was delighted to find artifacts that had been donated by the local museum to where my grandfather lives! And during the holidays, when I’m missing my family more than ever, the decor put up, along with the show, and selling the very hard to find Jul Must (an exclusively Christmas soda that is impossible to find in the states) brings joyful tears to my eyes.

Honestly... I love World Showcase. I am immensely frustrated that they only have two rides and a few films out of that entire area. But I love the architecture and enjoy just wandering around enjoying the sights (btw, the interiors of Vegas casinos like the Venetian and Paris do not hold a candle to World Showcase, and if you think otherwise, all I can say is that you probably weren’t sober in that assessment!) I like to try the different foods and drinks, festival or not. I had one of the best steaks of my life at Le Cellier. I can actually get French pastries that taste like they did on my trip from my teens...and I’ve gone on a quest to get that itch scratched.
Have either of you tried IKEA VINTERSAGA? I enjoyed it when I had it a year or so ago and I've been told that it's basically Julmust. I'm sure it's not as good as the real thing but its easily available in the US so I'd be interested to hear your take on it.
 

Heppenheimer

Well-Known Member
Psssst. World Market imports Jul Must at the beginning of Christmas merch. Anyone who wants it needs to buy a bottle immediately since it sells out fast.

I love World Showcase for the same reasons you listed. It’s disheartening to see Disney dumb it down instead of build it up with thrilling attractions that don’t require cartoons (of course I’m thinking about Mt. Fuji). I’ve also traveled around the world, and Epcot scratches a lot of itches when you’re in the States.

Also, since I keep seeing people repeat an erroneous Internet myth, I’ll address it here: Disney never pretended WS was a substitute for the real thing. It was never supposed to be. World Showcase was intended to offer tastes of historic culture and to spur tourism to the real countries.
Yup. Maybe that rumor persists because the World's Fairs that Disney used as the model for Epcot have now begun to fade from public memory. Nobody who attended the 1964 World's Fair in Flushing Meadows would have likely assumed that visiting, for example, the Swedish pavilion and eating some meatballs would have shown them all they need to know about the country. The intention was to whet the appetite for actually visiting the real country (although given the state of Swedish cuisine at the time, maybe "appetite" is not a good metaphor).
 

DCLcruiser

Well-Known Member
Aladdin's story as Middle-Eastern has a few holes: one being that it takes place in China, after that initial place-setting, there is nothing in the story that would confirm either a Chinese or Middle-Eastern place-setting, and, it may not even be a traditional Middle-Eastern tale to begin with since it was added to One Thousand and One Nights by a European by way of a Syrian story-teller and there are no pre-existing evidence of the story.




Many modern European nations were once made up of smaller kingdoms, sort of like states or counties. E.g., the Kingdom of Wessex in Great Britain.

A "Kingdom of Arendelle" is not necessarily the whole nation of Norway as far as modern boundaries go. Everything we've seen of Arendelle makes it more like a city-state.

And being fictional doesn't mean it can't be firmly identified as being part of an identifiable state or country. Gotham is in the U.S. Brigadoon is in Scotland.
Where are you getting China from with Aladdin? Arabian Nights, Ali Baba (his father) and with Agrabah taking place in the Levant.
 
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Epcot82Guy

Well-Known Member
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The major issue I have is the storytelling. Disney is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I am an old-school fan (obviously), but I can evolve to understand the need for characters. But, there is no need to abandon Epcot being representative of the real world (in a stylized, romanticized way). If these stories were about the characters showcasing SOMETHING about the country represented, they can fit. Similarly, if the story of World Showcase were rewritten to be "showcases of countries around the world that inspired some of your favorite Disney stories" - and then EVERY country needs that, it works. It's the hodgepodge and lack of consistent story that really destroys things. Disney Parks used to focus on the wide shot, the near shot and the close up. And they (usually) tried to make each work. It's the abandonment of those layers of consistent theme and connection "because people want characters" that is killing it for me.

Ironically, I feel the crowd that doesn't necessarily get the argument above is getting a taste of it with Splash Mountain. Not to rehash that debate, but you really see how things don't fit into Frontierland, and you have to really shoehorn a story around something for it to fit.
 

Heppenheimer

Well-Known Member
There was a fair scheduled for this year. The US has even rejoined the IBE and was sponsoring a bid for 2023.
Expo's still exist, yes, but they're now mostly trade fairs. World's Fairs used to be the kind of event families would travel to visit on vacation. When was the last time an Expo captured the attention of the general public? The most recent example that I remember receiving any general publicity was the 1982 World's Fair in Knoxville, which wasn't exactly considered a stellar success at the time.
 
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