DAK 'Encanto' and 'Indiana Jones'-themed experiences at Animal Kingdom

[celluloid]

There seems to be a deep confusion around the difference between theme and characterization.

Taking out the fact that the IP mandate is dumb, and operating within those parameters, I'm going to say something controversial.

Almost *any* Disney IP can fit in almost *any* Disney Park.

There are a couple of qualifications to this:
* The *story* of whatever attraction the IP is added to has to fit the *theme* of the park or area - *or* the characterization of a specific character lends itself to the theme of the area.
* The characterization cannot be out of place for that character.

That's the whole point of taking known characters and putting them in new circumstances - you could have Wall-E in AK and have it be a thematic fit - or the Incredibles.

Now,.some things wouldn't fit. I would have a hard time seeing Star Wars, but even there there are some concepts that would fit.

Case in point: Many felt that Moana was a poor fit for Epcot - yet the end product actually turned out to be a decent thematic fit, even with the other legit criticism of that attraction. Conversely, Frozen is a decent thematic fit for Norway on the surface, but the execution was poor and not at all a thematic fit.

Indy can certainly be a good fit as described by other posts - a specific adventure that pits Indy against nature that he learns from.

Encanto as well - could be a ride through Casita and culminating in Antonio's room for an exploration of South American animals, or something more complex such as a threat to the local ecosystem.

Both of these can work within the theme of AK, be true to the characters, and present good stories and rides. Now, whether they execute on that is another story.

So many degrees in there. It depends on how much you want the characterization to be detailed and remain, or bend.
It also does not help here that Indy is not the most dynamic character. He has moments but if he realizes the error of raiding and not caring for the environment, it does not feel genuine to the character. YMMV with what people care about.
In Disneyland's Adventureland and Tokyo Disney Sea, it matches the romanticized spirit of adventure and the perils.
The fiction is not the issue, but the more you have to write, it seems the more the character bends, not reinforces.

This is similar to your example of why Pandora fits in AK where Star Wars doing the same thing with caring for sci fi creatures would be a stretch. There are no conservation themes naturally in Star Wars or its main characters. Neither does Indiana Jones. care much for animals and nicest he ever was, was to riding elephants. The theme often has him at odds combatting or against those creature of nature as an obstacle. Remember, the dude has a whip and hates snakes.
Pandora does.
People want Indy to be likeable, that is why Disney is choosing the IP there. He is the hero of a story. A story that raids temples and has not been too kind to the natural world. So either he changes, meaning character bends and becomes oddly dynamic, that can work but a bit forced to say the least, or the theme of the attraction is irrelevant, which means the theme park's throughline is bent or sacrificed.
And it is not a big deal, but it plays differently.

 

[Bocabear]

There seems to be a deep confusion around the difference between theme and characterization.

Taking out the fact that the IP mandate is dumb, and operating within those parameters, I'm going to say something controversial.

Almost *any* Disney IP can fit in almost *any* Disney Park.

There are a couple of qualifications to this:
* The *story* of whatever attraction the IP is added to has to fit the *theme* of the park or area - *or* the characterization of a specific character lends itself to the theme of the area.
* The characterization cannot be out of place for that character.

That's the whole point of taking known characters and putting them in new circumstances - you could have Wall-E in AK and have it be a thematic fit - or the Incredibles.

Now,.some things wouldn't fit. I would have a hard time seeing Star Wars, but even there there are some concepts that would fit.

Case in point: Many felt that Moana was a poor fit for Epcot - yet the end product actually turned out to be a decent thematic fit, even with the other legit criticism of that attraction. Conversely, Frozen is a decent thematic fit for Norway on the surface, but the execution was poor and not at all a thematic fit.

Indy can certainly be a good fit as described by other posts - a specific adventure that pits Indy against nature that he learns from.

Encanto as well - could be a ride through Casita and culminating in Antonio's room for an exploration of South American animals, or something more complex such as a threat to the local ecosystem.

Both of these can work within the theme of AK, be true to the characters, and present good stories and rides. Now, whether they execute on that is another story.

I would argue it is a nice walk-through in an area that needs activation since they just tore down half of the buildings in this area and there is nothing else going on.... I don't hate the Moana walk-through, but just because it is soething in an area of nothing, doesn't make it fit into the theme of the area....It doesn't feel attached to The Seas in any way... it is a sort of standalone thing that relates to nothing but itself.... This would have been a beautiful addition to the Animal Kingdom or Adventureland.... but unless they build more to relate to it...make it relate to the rest of the "World Nature" area which is poorly defined and completely lacks any sort of cohesion, it is always going to feel a bit misplaced....

 

[celluloid]

I would argue it is a nice walk-through in an area that needs activation since they just tore down half of the buildings in this area and there is nothing else going on.... I don't hate the Moana walk-through, but just because it is soething in an area of nothing, doesn't make it fit into the theme of the area....It doesn't feel attached to The Seas in any way... it is a sort of standalone thing that relates to nothing but itself.... This would have been a beautiful addition to the Animal Kingdom or Adventureland.... but unless they build more to relate to it...make it relate to the rest of the "World Nature" area which is poorly defined and completely lacks any sort of cohesion, it is always going to feel a bit misplaced....

This. Where as for Awesome Planet(even with subtle Ty Burell IP real estate joke connection) they nailed it.

 

[Timothy_Q]

Neither does Indiana Jones. care much for animals and nicest he ever was, was to riding elephants. The theme often has him at odds combatting or against those creature of nature as an obstacle. Remember, the dude has a whip and hates snakes.

People want Indy to be likeable, that is why Disney is choosing the IP there. He is the hero of a story. A story that raids temples and has not been too kind to the natural world. So either he changes, meaning character bends and becomes oddly dynamic, that can work but a bit forced to say the least, or the theme of the attraction is irrelevant, which means the theme park's throughline is bent or sacrificed.

The theme of DAK isn't about humans and animals getting along though
The park is meant to be the relationship between man and nature, both the positive and the negative sides of it

Many of the original DAK attractions touched upon the negative side
Kilimanjaro (poaching), Kali (logging) and ITTBAB (humans' hatred of bugs)

You don't have to turn Indy into an animal lover for him to fit the park
His indifference or carelesness towards nature can be woven into the story of the ride

 

[celluloid]

The theme of DAK isn't about humans and animals getting along though
The park is meant to be the relationship between man and nature, both the positive and the negative sides of it

Many of the original DAK attractions touched upon the negative side
Kilimanjaro (poaching), Kali (logging) and ITTBAB (humans' hatred of bugs)

You don't have to turn Indy into an animal lover for him to fit the park
His indifference or carelesness towards nature can be woven into the story of the ride

Yes. That right there. Man's relationship with the natural world.

Indy through that lense has the negative side and is not questioned in the source IP with the character being non dynamic.

If you have Indy the guy who hast to learn a lesson, he is not a hero of the ride's IP. Since that is not what is going in, it is just Adventure. Indy's carelessness or selfishness is never questioned nor even seen as that in the property.
So that is the best case so the theme of the park does not change, but the character does.

It can fit, but you bend the character a way that is not known in any of the IP, which mean, you bend the character.
If you don't, you bend the park.

 

[James Alucobond]

This is similar to your example of why Pandora fits in AK where Star Wars doing the same thing with caring for sci fi creatures would be a stretch. There are no conservation themes naturally in Star Wars or its main characters. Neither does Indiana Jones. care much for animals and nicest he ever was, was to riding elephants. The theme often has him at odds combatting or against those creature of nature as an obstacle. Remember, the dude has a whip and hates snakes.
Pandora does.
People want Indy to be likeable, that is why Disney is choosing the IP there. He is the hero of a story. A story that raids temples and has not been too kind to the natural world. So either he changes, meaning character bends and becomes oddly dynamic, that can work but a bit forced to say the least, or the theme of the attraction is irrelevant, which means the theme park's throughline is bent or sacrificed.
And it is not a big deal, but it plays differently.

Pandora needed to be a deep thematic fit because it was the pervasive basis for an entire land. By contrast, Encanto and IJ will be singular attractions slotted into a larger land formatted the same way as the other village/attraction complexes in the park. Pueblo Esperanza is additional connective tissue for the overarching AK theme to play out beyond "Encantoland" or "Indianaland".

As to your issue with IJ specifically, I get the argument from a franchise standpoint, but based on the other two IJ attractions in the same format that have been built elsewhere, his presence in the ride itself will be so ridiculously minimal that it'll be little more than a cameo. It barely matters what his history with animals is because he'll probably show up for all of five seconds total to hold a door closed and/or dodge a boulder.

 

[celluloid]

I get the argument from a franchise standpoint, but based on the other two IJ attractions in the same format that have been built elsewhere, his presence in the ride itself will be so ridiculously minimal that it'll be little more than a cameo. It barely matters what his history with animals is because he'll probably show up for all of five seconds total to hold a door closed and/or dodge a boulder.

So then those should ask themselves, does your description sound like a character and IP involved with the theme or the park's throughline or IP slapped in that does not fit without bending the IP or the park?

 

[James Alucobond]

So then those should ask themselves, does your description sound like a character involved with the theme or the park's throughline?
Or IP slapped in that does not fit without bending the IP or the park?

You can feel however you want about IP going everywhere. I'm just saying that his presence in every version of this ride is basically to say a sentence at the start, disappear for the vast duration of the ride, dodge a trap, and then note, "Whew! That was a close one," at the end. The general substance of his character and his history is largely irrelevant to this attraction, assuming it is similarly formatted. There is no reason to assume they have to "change" his character to fit as you suggested when we've seen that he'll probably be largely inactive and minimally present.

 

[celluloid]

You can feel however you want about IP going everywhere. I'm just saying that his presence in every version of this ride is basically to say a sentence at the start, disappear for the vast duration of the ride, dodge a trap, and then note, "Whew! That was a close one," at the end. The general substance of his character and his history is largely irrelevant to this attraction, assuming it is similarly formatted. There is no reason to assume they have to "change" his character to fit as you suggested when we've seen that he'll probably be largely inactive and minimally present.

They don't have to change the character, it means they just plop the same formula and the IP it is based on is not a fit for the park.

So if the character does not feature details in the ride that alter him to fit the theme, and the IP does not fit the theme...
That means the park was bent to get IP in.

The character is the title and main character, and arguably THE IP of the film. He is a serial adventure story character.
If your best argument is his presence is largely irrelevant, then the park took the hit.

IP can be chosen to put in very well be it reference or main concept of a major attraction. It is not mutually exclusive.
"The IP is only there minimally" is not really a strong argument to say it is done well in fitting.

That just proves the point.

 

[James Alucobond]

You said just a few posts ago that they would have to bend IJ's character. My only point was that they will not because his character barely shows up and does not do anything in the context of other versions of the ride that would inherently contradict content more appropriate for AK, which could easily be threaded throughout the entire temple portion of the ride during which he has always been absent. I am not saying that I'm confident they will succeed in having content that fits in well during that section of the ride, but it would not require any alteration to his character to achieve that end.

 

[Disstevefan1]

Since they did not change the ride system, Tiana is still a fun log flume (when its running)
I presume they are not going to change the ride system for Indy so this will also still be a fun ride too.

 

[The Leader of the Club]

The way to make Indy work in Animal Kingdom is keeping the plot similar to Skull Island at IOA. People come to a sacred place with impure intentions, despite warnings from the natives, and find themselves at odds with their surroundings. When hope seems lost a fantastical force appears to rescue them, leaving them with a profound sense of reverence for the land.

 

[DisneyHead123]

If you have Indy the guy who hast to learn a lesson, he is not a hero of the ride's IP. Since that is not what is going in, it is just Adventure. Indy's carelessness or selfishness is never questioned nor even seen as that in the property.

I think Indy always had a tinge of anti-hero about him. It was supposed to be charming and lovable but he was never a hero in the style of, say, Clark Kent, who really has to save the day in the end. It’s not uncommon for Indy get his a** kinda handed to him and to barely make it out alive, sometimes sans treasure or whatever he was looking for. I don’t see a metaphorical beatdown by the power of nature being at all of out character. It would be weird if it ended with Indy going “Golly gee guys, now I’ll recycle!!”, of course, but if a gruff and peeved Indy barely walks away? Still conveys the same point about messing with nature.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

The theme of DAK isn't about humans and animals getting along though
The park is meant to be the relationship between man and nature, both the positive and the negative sides of it

Many of the original DAK attractions touched upon the negative side
Kilimanjaro (poaching), Kali (logging) and ITTBAB (humans' hatred of bugs)

You don't have to turn Indy into an animal lover for him to fit the park
His indifference or carelesness towards nature can be woven into the story of the ride

Could definitely be something where Indy is in search of something and when he finds/takes it it awakens a Mayan God and elements of nature turn on him until he is able to put it back and "learns a lesson"

 

[celluloid]

I think Indy always had a tinge of anti-hero about him. It was supposed to be charming and lovable but he was never a hero in the style of, say, Clark Kent, who really has to save the day in the end. It’s not uncommon for Indy get his a** kinda handed to him and to barely make it out alive, sometimes sans treasure or whatever he was looking for. I don’t see a metaphorical beatdown by the power of nature being at all of out character. It would be weird if it ended with Indy going “Golly gee guys, now I’ll recycle!!”, of course, but if a gruff and peeved Indy barely walks away? Still conveys the same point about messing with nature.

Yep. That would be great, but that is not just minimal holding a door or hanging ingredients from rope with boulder. That would involve more.

 

[DisneyHead123]

Yep. That would be great, but that is not just minimal holding a door or hanging ingredients from rope with boulder. That would involve more.

I guess we’ll have to see when the ride opens… I’m keeping an open mind until then. To my mind the thematic debate over Indy is pretty minor compared to some of what was rumored earlier, like Zootopia, so on the whole I’m relieved. I think both Indy and Encanto being indoor rides is a good thing too. If something doesn’t work out theme wise, the exterior of the buildings should still work really well.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

To my mind the thematic debate over Indy is pretty minor compared to some of what was rumored earlier, like Zootopia, so on the whole I’m relieved.

Zootopia is happening and going into the parks icon.

 

[celluloid]

If Indy was an obvious and great fit, we would have gotten him in 1998 when the park had the ride system mirrored piece per piece and it was the most successful new E Ticket at DL just years before.

 

[DisneyHead123]

Zootopia is happening and going into the parks icon.

Wait what? Which park?

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Wait what? Which park?

Animal Kingdom