50 MAGICal Enhancements for the 50th ...

[Kman101]

Well...
I don't think I've been on Spaceship Earth since... idk, 2002 or 2005. I don't think I've ever been in the Energy pavilion. I really cannot remember riding any incarnation of Imagination either. I can go into detail about the World Showcase though, because that's where my family spent most of the time at Epcot.

The trip I'm planning this fall includes Imagination and Energy. Even if they aren't what they once were, I'd like to at least say I've ridden their rides.

I'm guilty of skipping Energy and Imagination every single time. I meant to go on Imagination this week but it didn't quite work out. Soarin' was fantastic though. I get the CGI complaining but I think it's a bit overblown. It's so much more fitting but I was bummed there was no applause. The California version always ended in applause anytime I went on it, which albeit wasn't very often but still ...

Spaceship Earth should not have FP. It's atrocious seeing a huge line out the door everytime you walk by. Sadly I didn't get on it either but I never try and skip it. I was limited in my time. Test Track also had atrocious waits so I skipped that, but while visually the new version 'fits' better, I'm not really fan. So for me, FW is a total bust. Didn't do Nemo or Space either.

I encourage everyone to see the American Adventure though if you haven't. I forgot how good it was. As were the Voices of Liberty who thankfully did their traditional set.

Wonder how much they're wanting to replace the boat ride in Mexico? Not a soul goes on that poor ride.

 

[sshindel]

I have to say that I love this post. There is something about "the way that things used to be" that always hits so close to home as they say. You and I are frighteningly close in age (and yes, I am one of those guilty of thinking that you are in your 60s ). And I have always been baffled by how visceral your verbal attacks are to the parks and their leadership. Over the years though I now see things a bit differently, and this post is one of the best you have written as to why you loved WDW at one time.

The one advantage that you and many other posters have over me is that Disney World was an integral part of your youth at a time when WDW was still so innocent. It was an oasis in the middle of Florida with no periscoping, no live streaming, no social network, no bloggers, no internet. No one carried a smart phone and strollers apparently were not a necessity in life. It was before the world became much smaller and the free market became "Walmarted" and homogenized to death.

When I was a young kid home from school for the summer in gold old Berks County, PA, my mom was of the stay-at-home variety. Every Tuesday and Thursday, we would get milk delivered to our house every morning by the milk man in glass bottles. We had this old metal milk box on our porch where he would come up and fill our order that my mom had written on paper the night before. Thursday's was a real treat as the Entenmann's Bakery Truck would pull up to the house and the driver would open the door in the back. My mom would take me in and there were shelves filled with as many baked goods as one could imagine. How very Norman Rockwellian it all was in hindsight! Compared to the world of today it is almost laughable how sterile or drab similar experiences have become. Kids played outside most of the day (before the Atari 2600 and Colecovision came along) and TV was about 12 channels (with a 13th that had more adult fare that was scrambled unless you paid for it ).

Having been a regular on the boards since the Avatar deal was first announced, I remember at first being baffled by some of the people on here, talking about how terrible the state of the parks had become in pretty much every conceivable way. I started my Disney experience in 2009, and I remember walking down MSUSA for the first time as a Mickey show was being performed on the castle stage. As the sun set the show ended with a burst of fireworks. It was - I hate to say it - a 'MAGICal' moment for me. I was totally hooked, being completely drawn in to what I perceived as brilliance in amusement park design and management (remember, at this time I thought of WDW as an amusement park comparable to places like Dorney and Hershey park back home). I still feel this way for the most part, mainly because my perspective of how a theme park can be great is significantly different than those that visited in the 70s and 80s. Some of this I directly attribute to a large PM discussion I shared with @George and @sshindel about why EPCOT was so incredible and is now so bereft of the spirit and soul that it once had. And I really understand now, and feel for those that hold these parks to another standard. It is one of innocence, a standard when things were done without the weight of "how will this impact long term share holder investment". Instead, it was when decisions were still being made to honor the man that started all of this and his vision of establishing a baseline level of acceptance and then always asking "how can we make this even better?"

I am hoping that what we are seeing now will make things better. I believe that they will as the level of investment here is pretty impressive. WDW will never return to what it once was. That is like me hoping to find bottles of milk on our porch tomorrow morning when I wake up to go to work. It can, however, be much better than it has been of late. Here's hoping.

Speaking of those conversations, which spurred so much thought and writing on my end that it may have been one of the most consequential PM conversations ever, I really enjoyed thinking about things from your perspective as well. Having memories going back to the opening of Epcot Center gives me a longer series of data points yes, but also one that is colored with nostalgia, of which I am aware there is no way to fully disassociate. I love to think that I do a good job of separating fact from fiction in my every day life, though I know it's something I do probably just as well as the next person. It's hard however to really judge things objectively when it's viewed through the haze of good memories.
Those conversations gave me a good reference point to try and look back objectively a bit more, which I try and use. Removing nostalgia from the equation is impossible, memories are recreated and slightly changed each time we recall them, but at least being aware of the problem can be helpful in trying to be objective.
I do think that there is a great deal of shifting baseline that has taken place over the years. Each year, new people show up, making new memories, and that becomes the baseline to which they will always measure the park. That baseline differs from what those previous might have had at the time their baseline was set. If that is at a point that is one of less trees, more IP, less quiet/peaceful, it's hard for one who has their own experiences to really understand the perspective of others who have a different baseline.

I guess the bottom line is, like with everything, taking time to step outside of your current perspective and into someone else's can be a really effective way to navigate differences in opinion. You helped me see things from a new perspective, which helps inform mine, and I appreciate it.

Whoops, that got-too touchy feely there at the end. Umm... Epcot Sux! Bring back River Country! Boooo.... BOOOOO!!!

 

[MMFanCipher]

@WDW1974 I think you forgot to mention that there were trees everywhere!

 

[rushtest4echo]

Wonder how much they're wanting to replace the boat ride in Mexico? Not a soul goes on that poor ride.

That might have been/probably was the case before Frozen (I don't have numbers), but every single time I've been on the ride since Frozen opened it's had a moderate queue that was only 5-10 minutes, but the fact that there was a queue at all was surprising. I never saw a queue before a couple of years ago. i'm not saying it's a smash hit or anything, but it's a capacity monster canal ride and I'm pretty sure it does decent ridership. Probably give more rides than Frozen to be honest, but that's just a throughput reality.

 

[Princess Leia]

I'm guilty of skipping Energy and Imagination every single time. I meant to go on Imagination this week but it didn't quite work out. Soarin' was fantastic though. I get the CGI complaining but I think it's a bit overblown. It's so much more fitting but I was bummed there was no applause. The California version always ended in applause anytime I went on it, which albeit wasn't very often but still ...

Spaceship Earth should not have FP. It's atrocious seeing a huge line out the door everytime you walk by. Sadly I didn't get on it either but I never try and skip it. I was limited in my time. Test Track also had atrocious waits so I skipped that, but while visually the new version 'fits' better, I'm not really fan. So for me, FW is a total bust. Didn't do Nemo or Space either.

I encourage everyone to see the American Adventure though if you haven't. I forgot how good it was. As were the Voices of Liberty who thankfully did their traditional set.

Wonder how much they're wanting to replace the boat ride in Mexico? Not a soul goes on that poor ride.

I love the Mexico boat ride
I remember when my family found it (I want to say that was the 2000 trip, but it could have been 1998). We really enjoyed the peaceful ambiance.

It's embarrassing to think about how many current Epcot attractions I haven't been on. Mission:Space? No. Test Track? No. Energy? No. Imagination? No. Anything added since spring 2008? Nope.

 

[LapsedWDWFan]

The first trip I took (that I remember anyway) was in 1981. I think the difference between those of us that knew Disney back then and those who have come to know Disney recently, is where the magic came from for us. Back then, Disney prided it's magic on the immersion. The fact that you would feel like you were just teleported to this distant time or land is what made it special. I read an interview with John Hench where he talked about creating this immersion. I'm paraphrasing a bit, but he said the key is making sure all of the elements...the sights, sounds, smells, etc...are in line with the world you are trying to create. That if one little thing is off, even something small that the person can't quite put their finger on it, it blows the whole immersion because the brain doesn't buy it.

Here are a couple glaring examples that stood out to me...

Main Street. Back in the day, when you walked into a shop, everything from the counters to the display cases to the overall decor was turn of the century replicas. So when you walked in, the illusion was still intact. Like you were getting an ice cream cone in a circa 1910 corner store. When you look at it today, you get the feeling like you're in a modern shopping mall with turn of the century facades.

Adventureland. This used to be one of the most immersive areas of the whole park. Even Disney's own marketing materials back then touted how you would be transported to Colonial Africa. Then, as you moved along, the sights, sounds and architecture seamlessly transition you to Polynesia. Finally, perfectly blending into the Spanish Caribbean. And they were right. That's exactly what it was like, and the ambiance at night was something special. Then what did they do? BLAM! Plopped an out-of-place, carnival spinner ride right in the middle of it. Well if John Hench said all it takes is one little thing to destroy the immersion, well this was an in-your-face, blatantly shoe-horned, just throw immersion out of the window addition. I think it was at that moment when I first saw this, I realized that the folks who are making these decisions didn't care about the details anymore.

I could go on and on, but I think you get the idea.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think immersion has been completely wiped out. There are still good examples of it still around. I guess it's just what's been lost is that Disney used to put that attention to detail in everything they did. The smallest thing out of place would be corrected immediately. A single effect not working in an attraction was enough to shut it down. So like @WDW1974 said and others have echoed, for us that experienced what that level of escape was like, it's hard when see that attention to detail, the very thing Disney itself used to say made it special, get thrown by the wayside.

 

[rushtest4echo]

I do think that there is a great deal of shifting baseline that has taken place over the years. Each year, new people show up, making new memories, and that becomes the baseline to which they will always measure the park. That baseline differs from what those previous might have had at the time their baseline was set. If that is at a point that is one of less trees, more IP, less quiet/peaceful, it's hard for one who has their own experiences to really understand the perspective of others who have a different baseline.

I guess the bottom line is, like with everything, taking time to step outside of your current perspective and into someone else's can be a really effective way to navigate differences in opinion. You helped me see things from a new perspective, which helps inform mine, and I appreciate it.

Whoops, that got-too touchy feely there at the end. Umm... Epcot Sux! Bring back River Country! Boooo.... BOOOOO!!!

This X1000. I know people are disappointed with current EPCOT, and I feel (some of) their pain. I didn't visit in the 80's, but I have regularly since the early 90's. But people who visit for the first time now don't have our perspective. I have lots of friends/business associates/acquaintances that I visit EPCOT with and most of them don't know "old EPCOT" but still appreciate what the park has to offer. Plenty of them think it's awesome in its current state. Sometimes I want to strangle them. But I've tried not to hate what EPCOT is now based on what it used to be. Looking at the park without considering the "message" or the "history" of the place, I still love it. I guess it goes both ways. Sometimes it really is bliss to not know too much.

I was doing an interview with a creative guy in grad school (no need to out myself so I'll say it was in Europe and wan't Disney), but a colleague of his asked how we liked an effect that had been installed on the canal ride and my wife and I both said "oh it was very cool, much like xxx on this other ride". The guy was brimming with pride when his boss turned to him and said "They're like us, they've seen behind the curtain, they study this stuff, nobody else sees or notices that effect". The other guy then proceeded to pout and admit that this was probably the case for everyone else that rides it. But whether or not anyone sees that effect, it's a popular beloved attraction that everyone goes on. So if that effect breaks or is removed, we will notice and be sad about it, but the other million riders probably won't. It's that way with EPCOT for some of the senior members here. They've seen behind the curtain. They know all of the visionary plans for the place, all of the concepts, all of the original pavilions, the feel of the place- all stuff that people today don't have a clue about. But those people still have the right to like the place.

 

[ford91exploder]

The first trip I took (that I remember anyway) was in 1981. I think the difference between those of us that knew Disney back then and those who have come to know Disney recently, is where the magic came from for us. Back then, Disney prided it's magic on the immersion. The fact that you would feel like you were just teleported to this distant time or land is what made it special. I read an interview with John Hench where he talked about creating this immersion. I'm paraphrasing a bit, but he said the key is making sure all of the elements...the sights, sounds, smells, etc...are in line with the world you are trying to create. That if one little thing is off, even something small that the person can't quite put their finger on it, it blows the whole immersion because the brain doesn't buy it.

Here are a couple glaring examples that stood out to me...

Main Street. Back in the day, when you walked into a shop, everything from the counters to the display cases to the overall decor was turn of the century replicas. So when you walked in, the illusion was still intact. Like you were getting an ice cream cone in a circa 1910 corner store. When you look at it today, you get the feeling like you're in a modern shopping mall with turn of the century facades.

Adventureland. This used to be one of the most immersive areas of the whole park. Even Disney's own marketing materials back then touted how you would be transported to Colonial Africa. Then, as you moved along, the sights, sounds and architecture seamlessly transition you to Polynesia. Finally, perfectly blending into the Spanish Caribbean. And they were right. That's exactly what it was like, and the ambiance at night was something special. Then what did they do? BLAM! Plopped an out-of-place, carnival spinner ride right in the middle of it. Well if John Hench said all it takes is one little thing to destroy the immersion, well this was an in-your-face, blatantly shoe-horned, just throw immersion out of the window addition. I think it was at that moment when I first saw this, I realized that the folks who are making these decisions didn't care about the details anymore.

I could go on and on, but I think you get the idea.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think immersion has been completely wiped out. There are still good examples of it still around. I guess it's just what's been lost is that Disney used to put that attention to detail in everything they did. The smallest thing out of place would be corrected immediately. A single effect not working in an attraction was enough to shut it down. So like @WDW1974 said and others have echoed, for us that experienced what that level of escape was like, it's hard when see that attention to detail, the very thing Disney itself used to say made it special, get thrown by the wayside.

Very well said @LapsedWDWFan what you describe are the things we have lost at WDW and probably the worst thing of all is now forcing us to carry a smartphone through the parks,

I had a two way pager before smartphones and the thing I loved most was being able to lock the thing up in the safe for two weeks

 

[Kman101]

That might have been/probably was the case before Frozen (I don't have numbers), but every single time I've been on the ride since Frozen opened it's had a moderate queue that was only 5-10 minutes, but the fact that there was a queue at all was surprising. I never saw a queue before a couple of years ago. i'm not saying it's a smash hit or anything, but it's a capacity monster canal ride and I'm pretty sure it does decent ridership. Probably give more rides than Frozen to be honest, but that's just a throughput reality.

No I know it has high capacity. I've personally never seen a 5-10 minute wait. Of course it happens but I avoid those times in the parks LOL. I just have to imagine they're wanting more. It's fun enough. I don't mind Donald. But you'd think with there needing things to do, no reason, like say other boat rides, it doesn't get a long line.

 

[Bocabear]

No I know it has high capacity. I've personally never seen a 5-10 minute wait. Of course it happens but I avoid those times in the parks LOL. I just have to imagine they're wanting more. It's fun enough. I don't mind Donald. But you'd think with there needing things to do, no reason, like say other boat rides, it doesn't get a long line.

never a long wait, but in the last year or so there is always a bit of a wait...which it never had before at all. Hopefully they will do a complete gut and redo in the future and put in something reallly amazing.

 

[Kman101]

never a long wait, but in the last year or so there is always a bit of a wait...which it never had before at all. Hopefully they will do a complete gut and redo in the future and put in something reallly amazing.

Guess I lucked out and was able to walk right on. I had assumed that was always the case most of the time. When Test Track had 110 minutes for a wait time and you could get your own boat in Mexico ... I also didn't wait the 90 minutes it said Frozen was either. (35 minutes; I timed it)

 

[rushtest4echo]

Guess I lucked out and was able to walk right on. I had assumed that was always the case most of the time. When Test Track had 110 minutes for a wait time and you could get your own boat in Mexico ... I also didn't wait the 90 minutes it said Frozen was either. (35 minutes; I timed it)

Frozen's queue fluctuates the most and has the most inaccurate wait times I've ever seen. It's mostly to do with the funky capacity where one boat will be sent with 10-12 riders and the next boat can only manage 5-7. That coupled with regular down times and Fastpass means that a 35 minute wait really could balloon into 90 minutes. I've seen it happen quite a bit actually. We were lucky enough to hop in line after a full evac the other day and ended up waiting 45 minutes from the entry to Oaken's. Better than waiting through the whole queue, but without fastpass and with proper loading of the boats, that would have been a 10 minute wait.

 

[Kman101]

Frozen's queue fluctuates the most and has the most inaccurate wait times I've ever seen. It's mostly to do with the funky capacity where one boat will be sent with 10-12 riders and the next boat can only manage 5-7. That coupled with regular down times and Fastpass means that a 35 minute wait really could balloon into 90 minutes. I've seen it happen quite a bit actually. We were lucky enough to hop in line after a full evac the other day and ended up waiting 45 minutes from the entry to Oaken's. Better than waiting through the whole queue, but without fastpass and with proper loading of the boats, that would have been a 10 minute wait.

Ah. Good to know. I do know they inflate wait times slightly. I've been told this flat out. I knew I probably lucked out getting pulled to load. I've been timing waits all week. Just for fun. I know when I wait what I get myself into. It's just fun to track. But yeah, the time shown takes into account a lot of factors that many guests likely don't consider.

 

[rushtest4echo]

Ah. Good to know. I do know they inflate wait times slightly. I've been told this flat out. I knew I probably lucked out getting pulled to load. I've been timing waits all week. Just for fun. I know when I wait what I get myself into. It's just fun to track. But yeah, the time shown takes into account a lot of factors that many guests likely don't consider.

Well, it's slightly if all of those things happen. It's the case for all Disney rides though. Sometimes they post a 90 minute wait and it ends up 120 due to fastpass or small downtimes. Sometimes it's posted at a 75 and ends up being 15 minutes. It's all part of the mess that Fastpass has created for trying to accurately predict wait times. Express has done the same at Universal. It's also the case for any park that used to have a traditional queue but now has some sort of option (paid or not) to bypass that queue. They don't control how many people show up and when. Even with Disney's timed fastpass you can have a downtime or just a lot of allotted passes that all culminate in 500 people showing up to ride. That's going to wreck any predictions of queue length. After Fantasmic ends at Disneyland, they commonly throw up a 90 minute wait on Indy even though there's 10 minutes worth of queue. It's to account for the two hours worth of people who use their paper fastpass right after the show and all expect to ride in 10 minutes.

Just a mess...

Happy to deal with it though. I love my "lifestyler" ability to book 3 rides whenever I feel like it, show up for dinner, ride 3 rides without queueing, see a show, and call it a day. Totally fine with me whatever the standby says most of the time. I don't think we've queued for more than a ride or two longer than 15 minute in years during the same visit. 3 cheers for MM+!

 

[brb1006]

Very, very well put. And without charts and graphs. You are impressive, my friend!

I can go on and on and on about the things I loved about WDW in the 70s and 80s. Simply put, it was a better run, higher caliber product with truly world class Guest Service in the middle of no where (that was O-Town until the 90s building binge). Yes, the prices back then were high compared to the rest, but not compared to what people earned versus today.

WDW is trending upward in some areas (although what do you say to visitors to EPCOT and DHS now?), but overall it still has issues. I won't criticize the good as FINALLY there is some. And I won't get lathered up that Bob Iger really cares when he did nothing for the place from 2005 until very recently.

I still miss the original Top of the World brunches, running around EPCOT until after midnight on Spring Break, the quiet WDW Village at LBV, the steaks at Tangaroa Terrace, TREES everywhere, swimming in the lake at River Country while fireworks burst high over the Contemporary and Space Mountain, live music everywhere, the Diamond Horseshoe, the hours long studio tour at Disney-MGM, shops with cool stuff that wasn't all Disney, shops that you couldn't bring a double-wide stroller into, the original WDW Italian salad dressing (which is about 96% back at The Boathouse now), TREES everywhere, Jack Wagner on the radio and all over the resort, Mr. Toad and the submarines, walking up to EPCOT restaurants and getting a table, the amazing original music of EPCOT Center, no gates on attractions or monorails, TREES everywhere, real menus at restaurants (something back at signature locales now), Swan Boats peacefully gliding around the Hub waterways, TREES everywhere, quick serve at the Soundstage Restaurant, bad pizza at Lancer's Inn, Mickey with a Musket at FW, fountains with water (not plants and garbage) in Adventureland, no FPs, sleeping on the beach at the Poly or Contemporary, great buffets at the Terrace restaurant at Contemporary, the Empress Lilly (no, not the poster!), TREES everywhere, characters on waterskis, frozen grape juice bars, thin attractive CMs who understood English (yeah, I guess saying that means I'm as racist as some of the folks on the political forum ), the Festival of the Masters, TREES everywhere, the hope of monorail expansion and WS expansion, always something new to see or do ... yeah, I could go on and on and on ... Did I mention TREES everywhere?

As someone who grew up in the mid 90's and hadn't grown up during the era when Jack Wagner's voice was literally everywhere in the parks (Especially Epcot) and Disneyland. Can you give a good explanation for why he is considered the "Voice Of Disney" and how today's announcers compare to him and how special he was with WDW? We all know we won't have another announcer like him but I remember first discovering his voice by watching old WDW specials of the 1980's mainly from him voicing Disney characters. In later years, I discovered a website called DisneyChris that archives very old audio and parade soundtrack for Disneyland Resort that contains almost every announcement by Jack Wagner.

I'm just a but curious but I know there's something about his voice that has a special charm to it. Although I wish they brought back the Jack Wagner Vocoder voice for MSEP being back at DL. Also to this day it still feels strange knowing Jack Wagner was able to voice almost every Disney characters during the 80's (Except Donald) especially Minnie who I think was speed-up.

 

[brb1006]

Japan in general is on my bucket list, both Tokyo and Kyoto. I need a pic at Nintendo HQ.

Yes I'm a nerd

I'm a nerd myself both with Disney and Japan

 

[brb1006]

BW was an odd duck - it was a strangely unlikeable ride, with the tone and aesthetic of a low-budget late-70s sci-fi film. It's one of only a few non-IP-based WDW properties that didn't produce a character that nostalgia (and marketing) can latch on to.

This opinion may be more personal, but I also never loved the subs. If it weren't for the decades long wait, the trade-off for NFL would be a good one.

Toad was a genuine loss, even if it was a simple little ride. FL should be packed with dark rides (see DL) and Toad was probably my favorite. A new Toad done with modern tech (mystic manor style trackless, with several reckless drivers veering around each other?) would be great.

Now that I would want to see happen if WDW ever plans on creating a new Toad ride.

 

[Daveeeeed]

I just re-watched the film last night, and I completely agree. If only Anakin had become Darth about halfway through Episode III and spent the last 45 minute murdering everyone. It would have been glorious and something from the prequel trilogy worth watching!

Prequels 1 & 2 should have been completely rewritten and only as one film. Revenge of the Sith on the other hand... Easily should have been two films extended.

 

[Thanks phoenicians]

Not sure if this has been asked before but is any of the large amount of money spread around the property being given to the water parks? Volcano bay while the theming will probably be on the scale of typhoon lagoon their seems to be quite a few more slides than the WDW water parks. Typhoon lagoon in particular could use another thrill ride and blizzard beach has never had an expansion.

 

[AndrewsJ]

Not sure if this has been asked before but is any of the large amount of money spread around the property being given to the water parks? Volcano bay while the theming will probably be on the scale of typhoon lagoon their seems to be quite a few more slides than the WDW water parks. Typhoon lagoon in particular could use another thrill ride and blizzard beach has never had an expansion.

See the last paragraph of the very first post in the thread