Long live the Eastern Gateway or how I learned to love the Anaheim City Council after the election.

Disney Irish

Premium Member
From a guest standpoint, the eastern gateway would be terrible, as Disney will use it as a way to eliminate all tram service from the parking lots.
Why? As of right now there is only one tram service, from M&F/Pixar lots to DTD. The EGW would have no bearing on that being eliminated as it would have no affect on it. If and when Disney decides to eliminate the M&F Tram, it will not be because of the EGW project.

All other transportation such as buses and shuttles, including from Toy Story lot would come into the new transportation hub that is part of the EGW.

Again, from a guest perspective, the Eastern Gateway is a bad idea. It also will dramatically reduce foot traffic on Harbor negatively affecting those businesses.
Why? Access to Harbor businesses would still be the same, just accessed differently. Guests going to/from the parks would be accessing those business instead of from the sidewalk/crosswalk would do so from the EGW bridge/path behind the businesses. Wayfinders paths are going to be key in this whole project. All this end up being agreed upon by most if not all the businesses.
 

cmwade77

Well-Known Member
Why? As of right now there is only one tram service, from M&F/Pixar lots to DTD. The EGW would have no bearing on that being eliminated as it would have no affect on it. If and when Disney decides to eliminate the M&F Tram, it will not be because of the EGW project.

All other transportation such as buses and shuttles, including from Toy Story lot would come into the new transportation hub that is part of the EGW.


Why? Access to Harbor businesses would still be the same, just accessed differently. Guests going to/from the parks would be accessing those business instead of from the sidewalk/crosswalk would do so from the EGW bridge/path behind the businesses. Wayfinders paths are going to be key in this whole project. All this end up being agreed upon by most if not all the businesses.
Why? Because the distance is similar to the walk from M&F, mark my words, there will use this as a way to eliminate the tram service.

And really, it will definitely reduce the foot traffic, how can it not? After all it is literally designed to bypass those businesses.
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
Why? Because the distance is similar to the walk from M&F, mark my words, there will use this as a way to eliminate the tram service.
Um, no we went through this like 10-15 pages ago. The walk from the Pumbaa structure to the Esplanade is shorter than the walk from M&F to the Esplanade, no matter where you slice it. You could park at the farthest spot in Pumbaa and it would still almost be closer than the closest spot at M&Fs. You do the distance yourself using Google maps and show me on the map how its the same distance.

And really, it will definitely reduce the foot traffic, how can it not? After all it is literally designed to bypass those businesses.
Again no, as each business will have direct access to the Wayfinder path from the rear of the properties. So no business is going to be without access to the guests. No guest will have to walk around long distances to get to any of the businesses from the bridge.
 

chadwpalm

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
After all it is literally designed to bypass those businesses.
So? Sorry, but I live on the principle that all things should be fair and equal. Those businesses on Harbor have been reaping an advantage over all other businesses in the resort area because of their locale. I'm all for supporting local businesses, but they would simply be losing an advantage over other businesses and being put on equal ground with them. It's not like they are equal now and those businesses would suffer a disadvantage. Those businesses are only complaining because they would lose the extra income they receive due to their location. They wouldn't suffer and they definitely wouldn't go under (unless they are so poorly managed they couldn't survive under normal circumstances). On top of all of that, perhaps the businesses (especially hotels) that aren't across the street from the parks can gain a bit more revenue and increase some of the competition thus reducing prices and being better for us, the consumer, in the long run.

Besides, Disney was willing to grant access to the businesses on Harbor anyways, so unless they have a new bargaining chip up their sleeve there's no reason as to why they wouldn't still do that.

A new garage on the Pumbaa parking would highly benefit those coming to the resort from the south since getting to M&F is much more difficult than those coming from the north. It would split up the traffic (southbound traffic goes to M&F and northbound go to Pumbaa) and make Toy Story into more of an overflow lot and perhaps even allowing them to allocate much of it to cast members giving them more spaces.

I'd much rather have a bit of an extra walk from the Harbor hotels to the Eastern Gateway if it means pulling the bag check away from the park gates as well as free up the current transportation hub land for DCA expansion. I wouldn't miss the direct walk-in entrance to the parks from Harbor. The further away from vagrants I get to be, the better.

Also, there is nothing to be gained by Disney removing tram services from either M&G or Toy Story. Nobody's going to want to be forced to walk great distances from their car to the parks. The notion that Disney would be so eager to do that baffles me.
 

DanielBB8

Well-Known Member
The guests parking directly at a Disney parking lot will be directed to Disneyland Resort shops and restaurants. If they wish to build their own parking structures, they might reap the benefits.
 

FerretAfros

Well-Known Member
While it's easy to get bogged down in a Business X vs Business Y mindset, the scale of the changes that were proposed under the previous Eastern Gateway design were best discussed at a higher urban planning level. Instead of focusing on how one specific person gets to one specific destination, it's more important to look at the general patterns and modes of circulation, and how they interact with one another.

With the density of land-uses surrounding the parks, the area is best suited for pedestrians making local trips; in many ways, it functions similar to a healthy downtown, where people park once for multiple nearby destinations accessed primarily on foot or by transit. It's a tightly knit urban fabric with new destinations and points of interest every few feet, rather than a sprawling suburban area with destinations miles apart.

One of the biggest accomplishments of the DCA-era was the creation of the Anaheim Resort District, and the urban design guidelines that came with it. It was able to convert the surrounding area from an auto-centric pedestrian wasteland into an approachable, active, walkable area fitting of a world-renowned destination.

529632550dfbc44dd986c30132c26f9c.jpg


While today's Resort District isn't perfect (sidewalks too narrow for the volume of pedestrians, too many driveway entrances creating conflict points, long 'dead' stretches with no points of activity along Disney property frontages, extremely long crosswalk distances etc.), it's a huge improvement over what was there before, and is one of the most walkable areas of its size in southern California. To continue this level of activity, the trip generators (storefronts, bridge access points, etc.) need to continue to be along the street front, rather than hiding them at the interior of the site.

Capture.JPG


Regardless of what one thinks about the walking distance from the parking structure and transit plaza to the ticket booths, there needs to be serious contemplation of who is the primary user for this area. Is it the family that drives in from Irvine for the day and leaves that night, never stepping foot off Disney property? Or is it the family that stays for several days, spending money in a variety of local businesses? Obviously both are important to the vitality of the Resort District, but the previous design didn't seem to acknowledge a balance of the two; it only met Disney's needs without considering the needs of the neighborhood as a whole (as is to be expected, from a project entirely funded by Disney).

This is the time for the City to really step back and look at the big picture. This is a big enough project that it will serve as an inflection point in the larger development of the Resort District: they can either embrace the urban nature of the area and use forward-thinking designs, or they can revert to obsolete planning practices that aren't compatible with the land use. While it's easy to think about cars first in southern California, it really isn't the best solution for this particular stretch of land.

I've said before that the City and Resort District really dodged a bullet when the previous design was cancelled over concerns about aesthetics. While the visual design of the bridge was forgettable-at-best, the way that it isolated Disney property from the surrounding neighborhood would have been a huge detriment for years to come. The current urban design of Harbor Blvd is surprisingly good considering its roots, but this is a chance to make it better if done thoughtfully.
 

Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
Why exactly do they need more parking? They built a second parking deck on the other side.

The former Transportation will be expansion space, therefore creating higher capacity, therefore needing more parking spaces.

If you look at pre-COVID numbers, the current amount of parking spaces is not enough for peak days, even with the full conversion of Toy Story/Bullseye for guests.

But as stated, Disney can do it in two phases, build the pedestrian and transit stuff first, then time the structure build to open the same time the expansion does.
 

Ismael Flores

Well-Known Member
From a guest standpoint, the eastern gateway would be terrible, as Disney will use it as a way to eliminate all tram service from the parking lots.

People already do lots of walking on Harbor and create dangerous pinch points. The gateway would actually improve safety and guest flow. I also do not see how a new gateway on the eastern side of the property would affect the western side tram system. They just spent millions on a new Hub with integrated security features that lead guests into a Tram load area. Would be foolish to think that they would al of a sudden remove the trams.
 
Last edited:

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
People already do lots of walking on Harbor and create dangerous pinch points. The gateway would actually improve safety and gust flow. I also do not see how a new gateway on the eastern side of the property would affect the western side tram system. They just spent millions on a new Hub with integrated security features that lead guests into a Tram load area. Would be foolish to think that they would al of a sudden remove the trams.
Safety is not increased in an urban area by removing pedestrians. Enhancing and encouraging more pedestrians enhances safety.
 

Ismael Flores

Well-Known Member
Again, from a guest perspective, the Eastern Gateway is a bad idea. It also will dramatically reduce foot traffic on Harbor negatively affecting those businesses.

those business would still have plenty of business from all the hotel guests in those motels. Any other guest that truly wants to eat in any of those business would most likely do the walk to them and then head to the structure.
The impact on those business in my view is being overplayed.
 

Ismael Flores

Well-Known Member
Safety is not increased in an urban area by removing pedestrians. Enhancing and encouraging more pedestrians enhances safety.

It does if you remove pedestrians from some of the most congested crosswalks. Tourist care less about crossing thru an already green light especially if handfuls of them do it not only creating a hazard but also backing up traffic. There are constrantly groups of tourist crossing between cars because the crosswalk and sidewalk are not wide enough for the mass of tourist that arrive throughout the day and that leaves in exodus in the evenings.

In an Urban area that constantly sees the same groups of people it is much easier to encourage people its not the same if the area includes a tourist destination which see content change of people that are more worried about getting tot he safety lines first before the other group of people
 

DanielBB8

Well-Known Member
Safety is not increased in an urban area by removing pedestrians. Enhancing and encouraging more pedestrians enhances safety.
This makes no sense. More pedestrians means more opportunity for accidents. To enhance safety, there's a bridge proposal that gets people to not cross the streets. More safety means more barriers, not that there's more pedestrians at a wrong location to cause an accident.
 

Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
Safety is not increased in an urban area by removing pedestrians. Enhancing and encouraging more pedestrians enhances safety.

The Eastern Gateway does not remove pedestrians, it does shift them away from dangerous situations, such as crossing driveways and crosswalk to protected pedestrian pathways and slower streets with the Transportation Hub, and using more pedestrian bridges. The city is working on a design at Harbor and Katella.

The driveways on Harbor are there by right, can't be moved, and needed for Fire Access. Building a new, wider sidewalk on Manchester, and having privately built sidewalks helps everyone.

Moving bus stops off Harbor also moves pedestrians to safer locations.

This also makes Harbor a safer street for Drivers. Harbor is used by delivery trucks, ride share vehicles, and commuters.

The new traffic layouts, with the Pummba Structure, and a new vehicle entrance to Toy Story/Bullseye on Katella at Clementine, removes day guests vehicles off of Harbor.

As for traffic flows. Many businesses built near a SEARS, hoping to get a percentage of their guests (Magnet). Now with SEARS closing many of their stores, those restaurants/businesses are dealing with a new reality. Nothing is promised when you choose a location for your business, beside what things YOU do. And even then, some weird things could change things.

The Hotels (in general) will have no change due to the Eastern Gateway. Maybe an specific location gains or loses, as someone else can claim closest Inn to the parks. But then, Disney can move the gates without permission on its land. The city has nothing to do with that.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
It does if you remove pedestrians from some of the most congested crosswalks. Tourist care less about crossing thru an already green light especially if handfuls of them do it not only creating a hazard but also backing up traffic. There are constrantly groups of tourist crossing between cars because the crosswalk and sidewalk are not wide enough for the mass of tourist that arrive throughout the day and that leaves in exodus in the evenings.

In an Urban area that constantly sees the same groups of people it is much easier to encourage people its not the same if the area includes a tourist destination which see content change of people that are more worried about getting tot he safety lines first before the other group of people
This makes no sense. More pedestrians means more opportunity for accidents. To enhance safety, there's a bridge proposal that gets people to not cross the streets. More safety means more barriers, not that there's more pedestrians at a wrong location to cause an accident.
The Eastern Gateway does not remove pedestrians, it does shift them away from dangerous situations, such as crossing driveways and crosswalk to protected pedestrian pathways and slower streets with the Transportation Hub, and using more pedestrian bridges. The city is working on a design at Harbor and Katella.

The driveways on Harbor are there by right, can't be moved, and needed for Fire Access. Building a new, wider sidewalk on Manchester, and having privately built sidewalks helps everyone.

Moving bus stops off Harbor also moves pedestrians to safer locations.

This also makes Harbor a safer street for Drivers. Harbor is used by delivery trucks, ride share vehicles, and commuters.

The new traffic layouts, with the Pummba Structure, and a new vehicle entrance to Toy Story/Bullseye on Katella at Clementine, removes day guests vehicles off of Harbor.

As for traffic flows. Many businesses built near a SEARS, hoping to get a percentage of their guests (Magnet). Now with SEARS closing many of their stores, those restaurants/businesses are dealing with a new reality. Nothing is promised when you choose a location for your business, beside what things YOU do. And even then, some weird things could change things.

The Hotels (in general) will have no change due to the Eastern Gateway. Maybe an specific location gains or loses, as someone else can claim closest Inn to the parks. But then, Disney can move the gates without permission on its land. The city has nothing to do with that.
The reason it is so easy to bungle urban design is because it is counter-intuitive to people who have lived their entire lives in car-oriented spaces and predominantly focused on serving the needs of the car. Pedestrian oriented design has repeatedly been shown to be successful and often times also improves conditions not just for the pedestrians but also the cars as well versus car oriented design that often fails the cars and pedestrians. Wider sidewalks and more people helps to slow down the desired speeds at which cars try to drive. Slower cars improve safety and movement for everyone because drivers are more aware of their surroundings. This is important to prevent cars from being entangled not just with pedestrians but also other cars, and this is doubly true in an environment with so many intersections. Despite trying to drive slower, cars end up moving through more quickly because fewer people are coming to a sudden stop or changing direction trying to avoid or ending up in a collision or trying to get oriented.
 

Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
Let us look at an option.

One is to remove the sidewalk on the west side of Harbor from Ball to Katella. Yes, from the Four Points Hotel to the North, to the Candy Cane Inn to the South. What is in-between is Freeway on-off ramps and Disney property. Basically places that doesn't need pedestrian access. You reroute the public buses to Manchester/Clementine to Katella. This creates a much safer situation, eliminating crosswalk over the off-ramps, driveways, etc. No stores or other locations to go to if Disney builds the new Gateway and bridge, and that the Candy Cane Inn has a new city bridge for pedestrians.

This also improves the traffic flow, as the pedestrian crosswalk iver Harbor are no longer needed.
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
The reason it is so easy to bungle urban design is because it is counter-intuitive to people who have lived their entire lives in car-oriented spaces and predominantly focused on serving the needs of the car. Pedestrian oriented design has repeatedly been shown to be successful and often times also improves conditions not just for the pedestrians but also the cars as well versus car oriented design that often fails the cars and pedestrians. Wider sidewalks and more people helps to slow down the desired speeds at which cars try to drive. Slower cars improve safety and movement for everyone because drivers are more aware of their surroundings. This is important to prevent cars from being entangled not just with pedestrians but also other cars, and this is doubly true in an environment with so many intersections. Despite trying to drive slower, cars end up moving through more quickly because fewer people are coming to a sudden stop or changing direction trying to avoid or ending up in a collision or trying to get oriented.
Well my suggestion is if you have a better proposal instead of complaining here on a forum you present your proposal in front of the Planning Commission and City Council. If its truly a better design I'm sure they will put it up for a vote. That is democracy at work!
 

Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
Lazyboy, some places work better than others.

Harbor between Manchester and Katella has many Hotels/Inns whose ONLY access are driveways on Harbor. If the Anaheim Hotel becomes a 4 Diamond, the proposed plans do move its driveways to Disney Way (One exit remains on Harbor mainly for Fire Access).

Since you cannot remove these driveways, the safest option is to remove, or at least reduce, the amount of pedestrians on the sidewalk.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Well my suggestion is if you have a better proposal instead of complaining here on a forum you present your proposal in front of the Planning Commission and City Council. If its truly a better design I'm sure they will put it up for a vote. That is democracy at work!
Are you going to pay my billable rate?
 

Register on WDWMAGIC. This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.

Back
Top Bottom